Different Views of the Lord's Supper

FireDragon76 · Apr 10, 2019

Tree of Life said:
The Lutheran view might be the most difficult one for me to grasp. The Lutheran view would say that Christ is physically present, while the Reformed view would say that Christ is spiritually present. The Lutheran view would say that Jesus' humanity is omnipresent whereas the Reformed view would say that Jesus' humanity is only present in heaven. Apart from this I'm not sure if there are other differences.

Jesus humanity is present wherever he wills it to be, that's closer to how Lutherans actually understand it.

And I hope this does not turn into yet another Marbug Colloquy.

Tree of Life · Apr 10, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Jesus humanity is present wherever he wills it to be, that's closer to how Lutherans actually understand it.

And I hope this does not turn into yet another Marbug Colloquy.

The Marburg Colloquy went pretty well from the perspectives of those who participated.

FireDragon76 · Apr 10, 2019

Tree of Life said:
The Marburg Colloquy went pretty well from the perspectives of those who participated.

U kidding? Luther left the table saying "Those people are of a different spirit from us".

Among liberals in our denomination (ELCA), Marburg is something they do alot of hand-wringing over as an "obstacle to unity". The ecumenism bug has bitten them hard, so our laity driven synod voted yeas ago to recognize the ministry of the Reformed and to agree to altar and pulpit fellowship with the largest denominations that ordained women. But it was not without debate and even controversy by serious theologians, and of course the LCMS folks can beat us up about it any time they are feeling smug.

In fairness, Lutherans have a long history of settling for a Reformed church when no Lutheran church was available . My pastor was baptized in a Ukrainian Reformed church in rural New Jersey, for instance.

DamianWarS · Apr 10, 2019

Tree of Life said:
In my upcoming ordination exam I am supposed to be able to distinguish between the Roman Catholic view, the Lutheran view, the Reformed view, and the Zwinglian view. Here's how I would put the distinction. If you're knowledgable on this issue and you're coming from one of these views would you please review my work and correct me where I'm wrong?

The Roman Catholic view sees the supper as a propitiatory sacrifice wherein the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross is re-presented and reapplied to those who partake. The offering of the eucharist is efficacious to atone for venial sins committed between celebrations. The substance of the elements is transformed to become the true body and true blood of Christ and the host remains God even after the ceremony. The sacrament works ex opere operato and is not dependent upon the piety of the priest nor upon the faith of the partaker.

The Lutheran view is that Christ is truly present in with and under the elements. The Lutheran view does not say that the substance of the bread and wine are transformed, but does affirm that Christ is physically present in the elements. The Lutheran view says that the body of Christ and his human nature is omnipresent just like his divinity is omnipresent. The Lutherans reject the idea of the sacrifice of the mass. They likewise reject that the “host” maintains any special significance after the event.

The Reformed view also rejects the supper as a sacrifice and views it rather as a post-sacrificial feast. The one sacrifice has already occurred and now, in the supper, we celebrate the feast. Whereas in the Catholic view the bread is the very body of Christ, in the Reformed view the bread is the very bread of heaven that we will enjoy in the marriage supper of the lamb. Christ is spiritually present in the elements and is truly received by faith. The elements retain no special significance after the event.

The Zwinglian view rejects both the supper as a sacrifice and rejects any special presence of Christ. In this view the supper is purely a memorial - something that we do to remember Jesus’ death for our sins. Jesus is not in any way specially present in the event and the event is not a means of grace.

there's also the Matrix view which takes it a step further and actually maintains there is no bread and there is no cup.

Albion · Apr 10, 2019

Nicely done, Tree of Life! My one question concerns the statement that the Reformed view is that Christ is spiritually present in the elements. My understanding is that this is not the Reformed view but that in some transcendent way, the communicants are mystically put into the presence of Christ by communing. Some observers say that this negates any claim to belief in the Real Presence.

Philip_B · Apr 10, 2019

Some of the attributes of pastoral life will point us in understanding what is understood, and that has to do with the communion of the sick:

Some Churches don't
Some Churches would have a separate communion service
Some Church will carry the sacrament from the main celebration to incorporate the sick in the celebration of the whole church.

Interestingly of course is to note that John Calvin commended the practice of communicating the sick from the bread and wine of the whole communities celebration (though not for other purposes such as benediction ...)

Llleopard · Apr 11, 2019

DamianWarS said:
there's also the Matrix view which takes it a step further and actually maintains there is no bread and there is no cup.

And the kingdom view where we see the physical bread and wine as a symbol, but 'taking communion' like that as totally unnecessary

DamianWarS · Apr 11, 2019

Llleopard said:
And the kingdom view where we see the physical bread and wine as a symbol, but 'taking communion' like that as totally unnecessary

is not that the Zwinglian view?

Tree of Life · Apr 11, 2019

Albion said:
Nicely done, Tree of Life! My one question concerns the statement that the Reformed view is that Christ is spiritually present in the elements. My understanding is that this is not the Reformed view but that in some transcendent way, the communicants are mystically put into the presence of Christ by communing. Some observers say that this negates any claim to belief in the Real Presence.

To be honest I'm not sure which is correct in terms of the Reformed view. I need to look into that more.

Tree of Life · Apr 11, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
U kidding? Luther left the table saying "Those people are of a different spirit from us".

Among liberals in our denomination (ELCA), Marburg is something they do alot of hand-wringing over as an "obstacle to unity". The ecumenism bug has bitten them hard, so our laity driven synod voted yeas ago to recognize the ministry of the Reformed and to agree to altar and pulpit fellowship with the largest denominations that ordained women. But it was not without debate and even controversy by serious theologians, and of course the LCMS folks can beat us up about it any time they are feeling smug.

In fairness, Lutherans have a long history of settling for a Reformed church when no Lutheran church was available . My pastor was baptized in a Ukrainian Reformed church in rural New Jersey, for instance.

Maybe I'm thinking of the Diet of Regensburg.

BNR32FAN · Apr 11, 2019

Jonaitis said:
The 21st Century View rejects the use of bread and juice/wine, preferring stuffed crust pizza and a can of Pepsi. They do see it as a means of caffeinated energy. It costs a dollar for a slice, while the soda is free, and only those who can afford it may participate.

But isn’t the stuffed crust leavened bread? I’m not sure the Orthodox Church would condone this type of blasphemy. Lol

Tree of Life · Apr 11, 2019

Llleopard said:
And the kingdom view where we see the physical bread and wine as a symbol, but 'taking communion' like that as totally unnecessary

DamianWarS said:
is not that the Zwinglian view?

Yes I believe this would simply be the Zwinglian view.

DamianWarS · Apr 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Yes I believe this would simply be the Zwinglian view.

I doubt any denomination that agrees with the Zwinglian view ever uses that term or even knows who Zwingli is.

FireDragon76 · Apr 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
To be honest I'm not sure which is correct in terms of the Reformed view. I need to look into that more.

Calvin held to a fairly high doctrine but by the 19th century Princeton theologians, it had been despiritualized. Philip Schaff tried to resurrect some kind of mysticism concerning the Supper, but he was operating from a German Reformed perspective, and most of the country was inundated with Anglo-American revivalism and was disinterested in his high church, sacramental approach.

Tree of Life · Apr 11, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I doubt any denomination that agrees with the Zwinglian view ever uses that term or even knows who Zwingli is.

Haha I agree. Many modern American Christians are totally ignorant of their historical roots and where their tradition came from.

All4Christ · Apr 11, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I doubt any denomination that agrees with the Zwinglian view ever uses that term or even knows who Zwingli is.

Occasionally they do, or at least some parishioners do.

Albion · Apr 11, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I doubt any denomination that agrees with the Zwinglian view ever uses that term or even knows who Zwingli is.

I was going to say....

It is almost meaningless to talk about the Zwinglian view of anything unless the point is about historic origins or etc. That is, however, what TreeofLifes assignment is concerned with

In other situations, we probably should talk instead about the Baptistic view or some other such word.

Tree of Life · Apr 11, 2019

Albion said:
I was going to say....

It is almost meaningless to talk about the Zwinglian view of anything unless the point is about historic origins or etc.

Probably, we should talk instead about the Baptistic view or some other such word.

I do think it's helpful to identify it as the Zwinglian view because I don't believe the view existed before Zwingli.

edit: Also, some Reformed baptists hold to the Reformed view.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 11, 2019

@Tree of Life - perhaps you should also note that some Christian churches don't have Communion at all. I believe such is the case in the Salvation Army denomination.

Tree of Life · Apr 11, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
@Tree of Life - perhaps you should also note that some Christian churches don't have Communion at all. I believe such is the case in the Salvation Army denomination.

Yes I believe that some anabaptists completely eliminated the Lord's Supper.

Different Views of the Lord's Supper

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