Replacement Theology Refuted

keras said:

The truth about who the Israelites by actual descent are, is obviously something that God keeps hidden, so arguing about it is fruitless.

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Scripture passage to support this?

claninja said:

Scripture passage to support this?

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Deuteronomy 4:25-31 …..When you do wrong...... I will scatter you among the nations.....but when you turn back to your God, you will find Him and He will never fail you or destroy you..... As we Christians have done.
Amos 9:8-9 makes it clear that God does keep watch on His people.

Jerryhuerta said:

The church is the vehicle to restore the tribes of Jacob and be a light to the gentiles (Isaiah 49:6).

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The early Christians were the tribes. And believing gentiles grafted in the place of the unbelievers God removed. If the unbelievers are Israel, to whom are they reunited by faith?

“And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:23–24)

Jerryhuerta said:

Unbelievers are not Israel. I don’t know if you’ve been keeping up with what I’ve written on this thread and the one on Dispensationalism Refuted. I’m not a dispensationalist. I believe there is a significance to the fact there were two houses of Israel that need to be accounted for in eschatology. At the first advent, the house/nation of Judah rejected Christ as it was ordained in Psalms 118:22-23 and Isaiah below.

And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:14 ESV​

And while the other house of Ephraim/Israel stumbled on the rock/Christ the epistles of Peter inform us that a vast number of these elect exiles of the dispersion accepted Christ and this is why he cited Hosea 2:23 in 1 Peter 2:10 and that it was according to the foreknowledge of God.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2​

The northern nation of Ephraim/Israel had been broken off the olive tree when God sent the Assyrians against them and they went into exile. The NT verifies the Jews, like the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, knew where many of them were in the first century and Peter and the apostles had success evangelized them, they were grafted in again, which takes us back to my previous post to you; Isaiah 49:5-6 maintains the Servant, Christ, was tasked in raising the tribes of Jacob and sending salvation to the ends of the earth to include the gentiles at his first advent. When we read further in the same chapter of Isaiah the description of these “tribes of Jacob” becomes clear that they represent Zion or the house of Ephraim/Israel as they were the ones who were still in the condition of being “barren, exiled and put away” in the first century, as verse 21 verifies. As Peter testifies, according to the foreknowledge of God they would be the house that avowed Christ and the “nation” that bears the fruit of the vineyard in Matthew 21:43.

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God has only one Israel = one people = Those who accept Christ.

Jerryhuerta said:

And how does that dispute my post to you? It doesn't! There were two houses of Israel that need to be accounted for in eschatology, which you haven't grasped.

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Jesus is Israel along with those who trust in him. The unbelievers from OT Israel are not.

keras said:

Deuteronomy 4:25-31 …..When you do wrong...... I will scatter you among the nations.....but when you turn back to your God, you will find Him and He will never fail you or destroy you..... As we Christians have done.
Amos 9:8-9 makes it clear that God does keep watch on His people.

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Keras, you made the claim that God keeps hidden who the actual Israelites are by descendant. I don't see anywhere in these verses you posted where the Bible says the identities of the biological descendants are kept hidden by God.

The verses you provided support faith and obedience, UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. This doesn't mention the identities of biological Israel are hidden.

Deuteronomy 4:27-30 Then the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you. And there you will serve man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. But if from there you will seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His voice

Amos doesn't mention the identities of biological Israel are hidden.

Amos 9:8-9 Surely the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth. Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,”

Jerryhuerta said:

In Acts 2:30-31, Peter is speaking of David’s prophecy that Christ would not see corruption in Psalms 16:1

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Knowing that God promised to set a descendant on his throne, he prophesied of the resurrection of Christ in psalm 16.

Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption

Jerryhuerta said:

because Samuel had prophesied that God would raise up an heir to sit on David’s throne. David never sat in heaven on his throne!

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But David and Solomon did sit on the throne of the Lord

1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king in place of David his father

Thus Jesus sitting on the throne of the Lord, fulfills David never lacking a man to sit on the throne

Revelation 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Jerryhuerta said:

Christ was raised and sat on his Father’s throne and returns to sit on his throne on earth, fulfilling Samuel’s prophecy,

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I disagree. I believe when Christ was raised and ascended to heaven, he fulfilled David never lacking man to sit on the throne.

Jerryhuerta said:

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

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When would Jesus come in his glory?

When he ascended to the Father:

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

After suffering:
Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?”

Jerryhuerta said:

Psalms 83:
1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

Supersessionism fulfills this scripture.

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Believing the new covenant supersedes the old covenant fulfills people taking crafty counsel against his treasured people, to cut them off as a nation?

It couldn't possibly be the enemy nations surrounding Israel during the time psalm 83 was written?

claninja said:

Keras, you made the claim that God keeps hidden who the actual Israelites are by descendant. I don't see anywhere in these verses you posted where the Bible says the identities of the biological descendants are kept hidden by God.

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When we honestly examine the biblical record, it becomes clear that the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel are not really lost at all. Rather, it is their identity as Israel that has been lost. Thus, as we search for the “lost” tribes, we should not look for a Sabbath-keeping people who call themselves Israel. Indeed, as the exiled northern ten tribes wandered from the Middle East, they were known by other names; such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Saxons, etc. names historians and researchers have not linked to ancient Israel, mostly because it doesn’t fit with their beliefs. They say the Western peoples are Caucasians and ether ignore how they got to the Caucasus region, or tout fanciful stories of Neanderthals and fossils.



When Jesus sent the twelve out to preach the Gospel, He said: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into a city of the Samaritans [Gentiles who displaced the northern tribes]; but go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew10:5-6

Jesus and His disciples knew the whereabouts of the “lost” northern tribes—and that they, in fact, were the “house of Israel.” Why do we hear almost nothing of the original apostles after about 60 AD? After preaching the Gospel to the Jews and being rejected by them, the apostles took the Gospel to the northern tribes where they had become re-established in new lands. During the years immediately preceding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we hear nothing of Peter and James? Why? They went, as Christ instructed, to the “lost” tribes of Israel and the Gospel was accepted by them; now the Christianized Western nations. Jesus’ Mission WAS successful!



Prior to the House of Israel going into captivity, the prophet Amos quoted God as saying: Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful [Israelite] kingdom, and I will erase it from the face of the earth [it would disappear as a kingdom]; except that I will not completely destroy the house of Jacob [Israel],’ says the

LORD. ‘For lo, I will command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations, as one shakes with a sieve, yet not a grain shall fall to the earth.

That is, the Israelites as a people would not be utterly lost or destroyed. Amos 9:8-9

As a nation, the northern kingdom vanished in captivity and was later “sifted” among numerous countries. But it was not utterly subsumed by them. This truth shows how amazing God’s plan is; His chosen people hidden amongst the nations, who will fulfil the prayer of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

Writing during the Jews’ captivity in Babylon, (135 years after the fall of Samaria) Daniel refers as well to those Israelites who were afar off, scattered throughout many nations, Daniel 9:7, but not lost to God.

After suffering decades of harsh punishment in captivity, significant numbers of Israelites would migrate toward the northwest, re-establishing themselves in various areas. Over time they would re-emerge intact, yet largely ignorant of their own true identity!

Contrary to misinformed scholars and those with another agenda, the ancient House of Israel was not “irretrievably lost”—for God has decreed that they would remain His people. In fact, their modern descendants are the majority in several of today’s nations. Moreover, the House of Israel is still to be reunited with the House of Judah in the latter days in the; as yet unfulfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-22.

keras said:

When we honestly examine the biblical record, it becomes clear that the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel are not really lost at all. Rather, it is their identity as Israel that has been lost. Thus, as we search for the “lost” tribes, we should not look for a Sabbath-keeping people who call themselves Israel. Indeed, as the exiled northern ten tribes wandered from the Middle East, they were known by other names; such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Saxons, etc. names historians and researchers have not linked to ancient Israel, mostly because it doesn’t fit with their beliefs. They say the Western peoples are Caucasians and ether ignore how they got to the Caucasus region, or tout fanciful stories of Neanderthals and fossils.



When Jesus sent the twelve out to preach the Gospel, He said: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into a city of the Samaritans [Gentiles who displaced the northern tribes]; but go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew10:5-6

Jesus and His disciples knew the whereabouts of the “lost” northern tribes—and that they, in fact, were the “house of Israel.” Why do we hear almost nothing of the original apostles after about 60 AD? After preaching the Gospel to the Jews and being rejected by them, the apostles took the Gospel to the northern tribes where they had become re-established in new lands. During the years immediately preceding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we hear nothing of Peter and James? Why? They went, as Christ instructed, to the “lost” tribes of Israel and the Gospel was accepted by them; now the Christianized Western nations. Jesus’ Mission WAS successful!



Prior to the House of Israel going into captivity, the prophet Amos quoted God as saying: Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful [Israelite] kingdom, and I will erase it from the face of the earth [it would disappear as a kingdom]; except that I will not completely destroy the house of Jacob [Israel],’ says the

LORD. ‘For lo, I will command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations, as one shakes with a sieve, yet not a grain shall fall to the earth.

That is, the Israelites as a people would not be utterly lost or destroyed. Amos 9:8-9

As a nation, the northern kingdom vanished in captivity and was later “sifted” among numerous countries. But it was not utterly subsumed by them. This truth shows how amazing God’s plan is; His chosen people hidden amongst the nations, who will fulfil the prayer of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

Writing during the Jews’ captivity in Babylon, (135 years after the fall of Samaria) Daniel refers as well to those Israelites who were afar off, scattered throughout many nations, Daniel 9:7, but not lost to God.

After suffering decades of harsh punishment in captivity, significant numbers of Israelites would migrate toward the northwest, re-establishing themselves in various areas. Over time they would re-emerge intact, yet largely ignorant of their own true identity!

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How does this answer my question?

keras said:

Contrary to misinformed scholars and those with another agenda, the ancient House of Israel was not “irretrievably lost”—for God has decreed that they would remain His people

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The house of Israel (10 northern tribes/Ephraim/Joseph) became not God's people, when he divorced them and scattered them by Assyria.

Hosea 1:8-9 When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

Jeremiah 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce.

However, Hosea prophesied that one day, they would be again called "my people". This would occur when they rejoined Judah with ONE HEAD over them.

Hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head.

For 700 years, from the time of the exile and scattering until Christ, many of the 10 northern tribes had mixed, genetically, socially, and religiously with the surrounding nations, and therefore becoming not so distinctly Israel. They had been divorced from God, becoming "not my people", and thus were equivalent to gentiles.

Paul has the prophecy from hosea fulfilled in the first century by both Jew and gentile being called to God.
Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

The two, Jew and gentile, were made one through Christ.
Ephesians 2:15 abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Jesus is the head over this one new man by which Hosea 1:11 was fulfilled.
Ephesians 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

keras said:

Moreover, the House of Israel is still to be reunited with the House of Judah in the latter days in the; as yet unfulfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-22.

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Jesus appeared in the latter days, at the end of the ages:
Hebrews 9:26 . But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

Jesus' death is how the children scattered abroad are gathered into one.
John 11:51-52 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

Paul has hosea 1:10-11 fulfilled in the first century by the gentiles being grafted in, through Christ.

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

colossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Thus if Hosea 1:10-11 is already fulfilled, then Ezekiel 37 is already fulfilled, as both prophecies are about Israel and Judah being rejoined under one ruler, who is Christ.

claninja said:

Thus if Hosea 1:10-11 is already fulfilled, then Ezekiel 37 is already fulfilled, as both prophecies are about Israel and Judah being rejoined under one ruler, who is Christ.

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But Hosea 1: 10-11 and Romans 9:24-26 are plainly NOT fulfilled.
Are the apostate Jews, the Children of the Living God? No, because Paul goes on in verse 27, to say of them; only a remnant will be saved.

Obviously you don't like the idea of God's plan for His people, but when I and others too, think it thru, then what has and is yet to happen, is truly amazing and will have the result God always wanted; of a people who have believed in Him although they have never seen Him and who will be His witnesses and His Light to the nations.
Your belief of fulfilment now, simply does not fit with scripture.

keras said:

But Hosea 1: 10-11 and Romans 9:24-26 are plainly NOT fulfilled.

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Hosea prophesies that those who are "not my people" will be called "my people" and that Judah and Israel will be gathered together under ONE HEAD.

hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ Then the people of Judah and of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one head, and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her as My own in the land, and I will have compassion on ‘No Compassion.’ I will say to those called ‘Not My People,’ ‘You are My people,’ and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”


Paul absolutely has hosea 1:10-11 and Hosea 2:23 fulfilled in the 1st century. He literally quotes hosea in regards to the Jews and gentiles being called. Paul literally states Jews and Gentiles are called AS ALSO IN HOSEA HE SAYS.

Romans 9:25-26 including US, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved. and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”I

Paul states you "are" sons of God. It is present tense, NOT FUTURE

Galatians 3:26-29 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Paul states that through Christ's death and the abolishment in his flesh of the law, he created ONE NEW MAN OUT OF TWO. Notice create is aorist. It is NOT FUTURE tense, but past tense.

Ephesians 2:15-16 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

Jesus is the head of the this new creation, the two becoming one new man. Notice it states Jesus "is" the head. It is present tense, NOT future tense.

colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

keras said:

Are the apostate Jews, the Children of the Living God?

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No, who said they are?

keras said:

Obviously you don't like the idea of God's plan for His people, but when I and others too, think it thru, then what has and is yet to happen, is truly amazing and will have the result God always wanted; of a people who have believed in Him although they have never seen Him and who will be His witnesses and His Light to the nations.
Your belief of fulfilment now, simply does not fit with scripture.

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This is quite a generic rebuttal that contains no evidence for your position. I could just as easily and generically say "you don't like the idea of God's plan for His people" just because we disagree on interpretation, but that is not how we learn.