Who Here Believes Born Again Christians...

BNR32FAN

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The Word of God Himself handpicked all of us - those prophets and disciples were the firstfruits of His election. Just like the dead rise first at Resurrection because they are already dead, these He handpicked were chiefs and Properly Ordained leaders of the living human population of believers (Church) by consequence and Providence.

However, they are still humans. The Word of God Himself is the only One who has risen so far; at best, that is the reason He would be Chief"est" of all of the Law and prophecy in all of Creation. No entity has ever died, and resurrected into their own unique spirit because they deserved it except Him - no entity in the Cosmos.

Having said all of that, I also said I do not believe any of the prophets or aforementioned persons actually contradict the Word of God Himself. I am saying our intimacy with the Word of God Himself goes beyond a canonical text, humans and humanity, and even the heavens. He should literally be a spiritual impression on your heart and mind so much so that if it was just you two in the cosmos you would still know and communicate with Him.

I don’t believe in election I believe when the Son of Man is risen He will draw ALL MEN to Himself. If election were true then John 3:18 makes no sense at all as well as every verse telling people to believe and have faith. What’s the point of telling someone to believe if they are incapable of believing unless they are chosen by God and if they are chosen by God they cannot fail to believe. Why would people be judged according to whether or not they believe if God has not enabled them to be capable of believing?
 
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Kaon

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I don’t know any child who obeys their parents because they love them. Lol usually is based on the undesired punishment that will follow if they misbehave. Now if you mean child as in offspring then I could see that as an adult behavior. An adult son or daughter obeying their parents out of love and respect.

There are a number of children who are obedient to their parents because they realize what their parents tell them protects them from harm, for example. That trust made into action through the faith the child has in the parent to keep them out of danger pays off, perhaps, when the child can see what happens when one is disobedient. If the child continues in obedience, s/he will also continue to realize trust between the parents established more and more. By adolescence, the child should be able to follow the majority of the "rules and regulations" of the parents in the face of temptation (e.g. from friends), and in the face of one's own pride. This is because the child loves the parent, because they realize the parents loved them first. It may take some time for a "rascal" to realize the purpose of obedience before s/he begins to be obedient out of love, but a good adolescent child will obey his or her parents out of love and an understanding of the purpose of their rules.


It may be hard to see today - in a generation that curses their parents out, and even murders their own parents. But, there was a time when a child was obedient, respectful, and fully loved their parents.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Who have you accepted into your heart that you don’t love and who do you love that you haven’t accepted into your heart?

Why would God ask anyone if they have accepted Jesus into their heart? He’s all knowing.

I think the idea of personal Savior comes from the idea that Jesus didn’t just come to save a bunch of humans He came to adopt family members because He loves each one of us. I really don’t see any problem with the term myself.
I object to "accepting Jesus into your heart" and "personal savior" because they are not in the Bible.

Alas, so many Evangelicals act like they are. In fact, I've met people surprised to find that out.
 
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Kaon

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I don’t believe in election I believe when the Son of Man is risen He will draw ALL MEN to Himself.

Election is one of the central themes of the living body of believers in the Redeemer (known as the Church): the Church is the election. Not the edifice or institution: it is the body of believers that have been believers and sons/daughters of the Most High God since the foundations.

Many people are, and will be deceived about their sonship, but when you are saved/born again - you are His, and no entity can snatch you away. You have to be born of spirit, and your spirit wont be born unless you are afforded the Holy Spirit in the first place - which means you would have to be chosen to receive it from the foundations since the Word of God Himself will not pour out His spirit in vanity.


If election were true then John 3:18 makes no sense at all as well as every verse telling people to believe and have faith. What’s the point of telling someone to believe if they are incapable of believing unless they are chosen by God and if they are chosen by God they cannot fail to believe.

This is a doctrine and dogma to increase the numbers of the institution, and to confound the Word of God. The Word of God makes it very clear that not everyone will be saved, and that faith is a gift, not something man can come up with on his own.

None of this is linear; one has faith because one has been given faith by the Father. One has been give faith by the Father because one is saved. One is saved because one has always been saved from the foundations. Since one is saved from the foundations, one will choose to come to the Redeemer in his/her lifetime. Since one chooses to come to the Redeemer in his/her lifetime, one is given the Holy Spirit to be lead in the spirit while in carnality. The spirit is not given to void, or desolation; if one has been given the Holy Spirit, one will retain the Holy Spirit until Resurrection. Because one has the Holy Spirit, one can Resurrect.

This is all because the Father has chosen the one - because He loved us first.

Why would people be judged according to whether or not they believe if God has not enabled them to be capable of believing?

The Word of God specifically says that not everyone who comes to Him will be saved. He specifically told the Samaritan that He was here to save His people, not the dogs. The fact that "other tribes/ethnic groups" (i.e. gentiles) would accept the Redeemer is result of Providence. He draws us near, but He has also told us very clearly that not everyone is of the seed of man, and some entities have a father different than the Most High God.

The Word of God specifically references an election.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Only when Christ fills your heart can you love God with all of it.
Oh, I'm not denying that. St. John wrote, "We love, because He first loved us."

But that's not the same thing as "accepting Jesus into your heart with or without as personal savior."
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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Oh, I'm not denying that. St. John wrote, "We love, because He first loved us."

But that's not the same thing as "accepting Jesus into your heart with or without as personal savior."

It's just that I always cringe when people mock "Accepting Jesus into your heart" because that's exactly how I was Born Again.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I object to "accepting Jesus into your heart" and "personal savior" because they are not in the Bible.

Alas, so many Evangelicals act like they are. In fact, I've met people surprised to find that out.

You didn’t answer my questions. Who do you accept into your heart that you don’t love and who do you love that you haven’t accepted into your heart?

Also Trinity isn’t in the Bible either. Surely you believe in the Trinity?
 
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Ken Rank

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Bless you brother Ken. Please correct me if I’m mistaken but Greek was commonly used after the Maccabee wars. The definitions are also supported by the Eastern Orthodox Church which was the churches established by the apostles themselves. These definitions also coincide with the watch church writings. They seem to line up with the history of the church according to the oldest writings we have available.
I am sharing this not to cause strife. This isn't a salvation issue, so if you don't agree that's fine. I do believe that the 1st century Jew spoke Aramaic (or a dialect of Aramaic, or Hebrew) as a primary language. Here are some reasons why I believe this, and these are just random as they come to me, not in any order of weight or importance:

>> 30 years prior to Yeshua walking with us (so "around" 30 BC) a paraphrase/translation known as the "Targums" were written by a disciple of Hillel named Jonathon Ben Uzziel. These are a great resource for us as they allow us to see (in places) what the Jewish view of the Tanach looked like. It is very pro-Messianic. But that aside, these were written in Aramaic.

>> Often Josephus is mentioned to support the idea that the 1st century Jew spoke in Greek because he wrote in Greek. This idea, respectfully, comes from those who have not read Josephus. :) That would have helped as here is what he said about the Greek language:

I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.

— Antiquities of Jews XX, XI

>> When Paul spoke to his accusers, and made his defense against his own people, he did not do so in Greek:

Acts 21:40 So when he had given him permission, Paul stood on the stairs and motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great silence, he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, saying,

>> When Yeshua spoke to Paul in the Damascus Rd vision, he spoke to him in Hebrew:

Acts 26:14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

>> When Jerome translated into Latin, he wrote that he used "an original Hebrew copy of Matthew" for that book.

>> Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, "Talitha, cumi," which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, arise." (Mark 5:41) If the language of the day was Greek, this verse (and a few others like it that use Aramaic phrases) don't make sense.

>> Abba, as a word, wouldn't appear as it does, and Barabbas is a Hellenized Aramaic word. Bar-abba means "son of the father" which could indicate that "Barabbas" was a false messiah who was freed in place of the true son of the father.

>> Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" ....... Why speak in Aramaic if everyone around is Greek?

>> Eusebius, the great church historian from the early parts of the 4th century, and a person who would have had a Greek bias... wrote that Paul wrote in Hebrew and was translated into Greek by Luke.... and that Peter wrote in Hebrew and was translated into Greek by Mark.

Again, these were just some random thoughts as they came to me. There are more reasons, I am sure I have a file of them somewhere. :) I think the main point I would make is that regardless of the language they wrote in... what language and culture did they THINK in? God inspired them, but just reading the 4 gospels it is clear that each "author" retains their individuality. They use words and phrases they understand to make certain points. This is why Paul quotes a Greek play in at least one verse. So if the mindset was 1st century ancient near east (Hebraic) then trying to interpret it all from a 21st century western mindset leaves some food on the table God intended us to eat.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Monk Brendan

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I am sharing this not to cause strife. This isn't a salvation issue, so if you don't agree that's fine. I do believe that the 1st century Jew spoke Aramaic (or a dialect of Aramaic, or Hebrew) as a primary language. Here are some reasons why I believe this, and these are just random as they come to me, not in any order of weight or importance:

>> 30 years prior to Yeshua walking with us (so "around" 30 BC) a paraphrase/translation known as the "Targums" were written by a disciple of Hillel named Jonathon Ben Uzziel. These are a great resource for us as they allow us to see (in places) what the Jewish view of the Tanach looked like. It is very pro-Messianic. But that aside, these were written in Aramaic.

>> Often Josephus is mentioned to support the idea that the 1st century Jew spoke in Greek because he wrote in Greek. This idea, respectfully, comes from those who have not read Josephus. :) That would have helped as here is what he said about the Greek language:

I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.

— Antiquities of Jews XX, XI

>> When Paul spoke to his accusers, and made his defense against his own people, he did not do so in Greek:

Acts 21:40 So when he had given him permission, Paul stood on the stairs and motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great silence, he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, saying,

>> When Yeshua spoke to Paul in the Damascus Rd vision, he spoke to him in Hebrew:

Acts 26:14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

>> When Jerome translated into Latin, he wrote that he used "an original Hebrew copy of Matthew" for that book.

>> Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, "Talitha, cumi," which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, arise." (Mark 5:41) If the language of the day was Greek, this verse (and a few others like it that use Aramaic phrases) don't make sense.

>> Abba, as a word, wouldn't appear as it does, and Barabbas is a Hellenized Aramaic word. Bar-abba means "son of the father" which could indicate that "Barabbas" was a false messiah who was freed in place of the true son of the father.

>> Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" ....... Why speak in Aramaic if everyone around is Greek?

>> Eusebius, the great church historian from the early parts of the 4th century, and a person who would have had a Greek bias... wrote that Paul wrote in Hebrew and was translated into Greek by Luke.... and that Peter wrote in Hebrew and was translated into Greek by Mark.

Again, these were just some random thoughts as they came to me. There are more reasons, I am sure I have a file of them somewhere. :) I think the main point I would make is that regardless of the language they wrote in... what language and culture did they THINK in? God inspired them, but just reading the 4 gospels it is clear that each "author" retains their individuality. They use words and phrases they understand to make certain points. This is why Paul quotes a Greek play in at least one verse. So if the mindset was 1st century ancient near east (Hebraic) then trying to interpret it all from a 21st century western mindset leaves some food on the table God intended us to eat.

Blessings.
Ken
Greek had been the lingua franca in that part of the world since Alexander the Great.

This doesn't mean that everybody could quote Homer at the drop of a hat, but even Jews had to be able to speak some Greek just to get along with their gentile neighbors.
 
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Monk Brendan

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You didn’t answer my questions. Who do you accept into your heart that you don’t love and who do you love that you haven’t accepted into your heart?

Also Trinity isn’t in the Bible either. Surely you believe in the Trinity?
I've already answered your questions. I'm sorry if you didn't like the answers you got.
 
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Monk Brendan

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It's just that I always cringe when people mock "Accepting Jesus into your heart" because that's exactly how I was Born Again.
Just how did you get "born again" by doing something that's not in the Bible and Jesus Himself never commanded?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Just how did you get "born again" by doing something that's not in the Bible and Jesus Himself never commanded?

So you don’t accept Jesus into your heart when you love Him with all your heart, mind, and soul?
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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Just how did you get "born again" by doing something that's not in the Bible and Jesus Himself never commanded?

Is it a mystery to you that God would pour out His Spirit on someone who doesn't know the proper words or religious methodology??? LOL

I repented of my sin and wanted God to live in me. It was by God's Grace. God knew what I needed when I said "Jesus, come into my heart". He gave me the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, just like Jesus said He would if we asked Him. And Jesus said these signs would follow:

A) Speak in new tongues
B) Cast out devils
C) Lay hands on the sick and they would recover
D) take poison and not be harmed
E) Pick up snakes

I've done all these things except been bitten by a poisonous snake.

Do these signs follow YOUR "born again" experience?
 
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Ken Rank

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Greek had been the lingua franca in that part of the world since Alexander the Great.

This doesn't mean that everybody could quote Homer at the drop of a hat, but even Jews had to be able to speak some Greek just to get along with their gentile neighbors.
Like I said, I don't care if we don't agree. But the history does not support the idea that Jews in Judea in the first century spoke Greek as their primary language. People love to throw out Josephus, saying, "He wrote in Greek!" But those same people obviously didn't read Josephus who said he had to learn Greek and that his native tongue was Aramaic. And... if everyone spoke Greek, why did Paul make his defense in Hebrew? Why did Messiah speak to Paul in Hebrew?

Bottom line though (@BNR32FAN this is for you to consider as well)... Greek is about form... Hebrew is about function. We (westerners) read "be of one mind and one accord" and think we all need to think and practice the same. That is form, that is from a Greek influence on our culture. The Jew in the first century hears the same words and understands that being of one mind and accord means, "Despite any differences we have, we are to work together to the edification of the body and to the glory of the one we serve." Thus trying to read the NT (all of Scripture) from a function oriented mindset simply answers more questions than it leaves unanswered.

Blessings Monk.
Ken
 
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Monk Brendan

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Is it a mystery to you that God would pour out His Spirit on someone who doesn't know the proper words or religious methodology??? LOL

I repented of my sin and wanted God to live in me. It was by God's Grace. God knew what I needed when I said "Jesus, come into my heart". He gave me the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, just like Jesus said He would if we asked Him. And Jesus said these signs would follow:

A) Speak in new tongues
B) Cast out devils
C) Lay hands on the sick and they would recover
D) take poison and not be harmed
E) Pick up snakes

I've done all these things except been bitten by a poisonous snake.

Do these signs follow YOUR "born again" experience?
Baalam's ass spoke in a new language, too, and she was the same ass afterwards as before.

"Accepting Jesus into your heart" is a work that YOU do, and we are not saved by our own works.
 
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Monk Brendan

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But the history does not support the idea that Jews in Judea in the first century spoke Greek as their primary language.

Where did I said they did?

Quote my exact words, please.
 
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Kaon

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While I believe nothing will separate us from God's promise, there are still a few things I would worry about doing, such as denying Christ or something. I'd probably still get to heaven but would have to sleep in a dumpster or something

It's a paradox; you can't do something that would separate you from your Father once you two are connected as son and Father. Think about how much bovine excrement you have to do before your parents will give you up and disown you; your Father is infinitely more patient and graceful. I believe this is why there are subtle comments like "... he would deceive the very elect (if it were possible)". It is a message to highlight the severity and depth of deception within the entity, and how (if it were possible), he would be able to deceive the very election. The impossibility is because He literally lives in you; the righteous man falls 6(000,000,000...) times, but the 7(000,000,000...)th time he will rise. You can't be kept out/down/ignorant if you have the kernel of the Most High God that makes you His son. And, He won't give that kernel to anyone. All of this is actually to show us where we stand with Him, who we actually are despite who we are told we are, and why we deserve to be in Heaven or hell in the future. Our life is that living proof/record.

Having said all of that, a dumpster inside heaven is better than the most lavish kingdom on this plane of existence.
 
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It's a paradox; you can't do something that would separate you from your Father once you two are connected as son and Father. Think about how much bovine excrement you have to do before your parents will give you up and disown you; your Father is infinitely more patient and graceful. I believe this is why there are subtle comments like "... he would deceive the very elect (if it were possible)". It is a message to highlight the severity and depth of deception within the entity, and how (if it were possible), he would be able to deceive the very election. The impossibility is because He literally lives in you; the righteous man falls 6(000,000,000...) times, but the 7(000,000,000...)th time he will rise. You can't be kept out/down/ignorant if you have the kernel of the Most High God that makes you His son. And, He won't give that kernel to anyone. All of this is actually to show us where we stand with Him, who we actually are despite who we are told we are, and why we deserve to be in Heaven or hell in the future. Our life is that living proof/record.

Having said all of that, a dumpster inside heaven is better than the most lavish kingdom on this plane of existence.

Do raccoons go to heaven?
 
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Andrew77

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are going to hell by not following certain verses in the bible? I have seen more than twice here, people say that eternal damnation is someone's lot if...

And that is despite that person being born again.

Once you accept Christ into your heart and life, you are saved. God does not take that back. All of Romans practically is God backing up that promise.

I'm gobsmacked by the Christians here who think if you don't follow the entire Bible to the letter God will revoke that promise and send you to hell.

Who here believes that?

You need to be a bit more specific.

If a "born again Christian" says he believes the Bible except..... Jesus really didn't raise himself from the dead.....

Well then I would suggest to you that a person who denies Jesus is alive, is not really 'born again'.

There are certain aspects of the Bible that are founding pillars of the faith, without which you don't really have a faith.

Matthew 7:22 says this....

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

So Jesus himself, seems to indicate clearly that some people we think are great Christians, will end up finding out on the day of judgement that they were never part of the family.

Again, in order to have a clearer answer to your question, I'd need to know what part of the Bible they are referring to.
 
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