Strange, I could swear I've never seen that conversation in the Bible. Could you provide me the chapter and verse where the Israelites inquire of God as to the ethical nature of slavery?
No. You've never seen that exact conversation in the Bible. I was using a metaphor. What you've seen in the Bible is:
“Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.”
—
Leviticus 25:44-46
and
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.
But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.”
—
Exodus 21:20-21 (RSV)
and
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
Ephesians 6.
and
Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Colossians 3.
and
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
1 Peter 2
There's only one reasonable way to look at passages like those, and it's to believe that they are saying that the Bible says that slaves can be captured, bought, sold and punished, and that God wants them to be obedient to their masters.
I'm also not sure why you think setting limits on a practice is an endorsement of it, but it's irrelevant anyway,
A moment. It may be that there were worse and more despicable systems of slavery than the one described by the Bible, but that is hardly an excuse. At best, you're making the same argument as the pro-slavery Christians of the antebellum era - that slavery was a good thing, providing it was properly conducted.
because in the Christian Revelation, Israel's past is supposed to be seen in the light of God's future, and as early as the Book of Genesis we can see that this is the greater context of the Bible. You seem very intent on arguing that God endorses slavery. I think it would be more accurate to say Israelite law has in the past endorsed slavery, although even that is technically debatable depending upon what you mean by endorsed.
You're quite wrong. I don't care in the slightest whether the Bible is pro- or anti-slavery. I just recognise what it
does say, and am stating the case.
Clearly it wasn't persuasive enough.
Not everyone has to agree for something for it to be true. Besides which, the Bible was
wrong. Slavery is a bad thing. We all agree on that. The slaveholders of the South were morally wrong - but scripturally correct.
No, the Bible doesn't say anything about slavery at its beginning. It goes through the Creation, the Fall, and sets up the stage for us to view God's work to restore humanity.
I assume you mean when it first begins to speak of slavery, although that's not really true either, because the Israelites were slaves in Genesis, and it's pretty clear slavery doesn't have a good light shed on it. Using terms like "encourage" is also rather suspicious. They certainly practiced it, that doesn't mean they thought it was some great moral good. The concept of Jubilee, and Israel's history and view of their place in the cosmos certainly seem to contradict the idea that they thought slavery is a moral good. You seem to be ignoring pretty much everything about the Bible, its context and meaning save a few proof-texts which is widely considered horrible methodology.
I wonder if you can see how very, very weak this argument is? Do you think that just because you can say something in response to another point of view, that yours is correct?
No, the Bible doesn't start, on the first page, by proclaiming slavery. But, in multiple instances, it does speak of slavery, setting up rules for it, and showing absolutely no disapproval of it.
Well, we don't really know that. All we know is the gospel writers didn't include it.
Good. So, then, we agree that the Bible is pro-slavery.
Also to say that Jesus endorsed slavery sounds like some intense textual misreading (I'd imagine something along the lines of "the Greatest among you must be a servant" passage). I honestly can't take that seriously. You can't actually expect me to take that seriously.
You could be right about this one. Jesus didn't actually say much at all about slavery. But he did say a lot about other things which he thought were wrong, and never said a word against the slave trade. In addition, the Apostles did the same, and they
did sometimes praise slavery. The only inference we can draw is that the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - was pro-slavery.
Good so then you agree God doesn't endorse slavery.
Not in the slightest. You should be aware that when Paul said "neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male or female," he was speaking about the issue of circumcision. Paul was saying, "It doesn't matter where you came from or what your position is, you are all Christians". This was not, in any sense, saying that Jews should speak Greek, that women should become men, or that all slaves should be freed. Go and read Galatians, and you'll see.
Is this some kind of virtue signalling?
No. Just the facts. If you want to know if the Bible endorses slavery, then just read it, and you'll see that it does.
Is it really? It's not a secret or a debate that our culture has already abandoned a good number of Christian values. You don't already see the beginnings of this?
What you said was:
"In other words, it was the West's adoption of Christian values that caused us to eventually abandon slavery. The pagan world certainly wasn't going to. If we eliminate Christianity as you seem to hope we do, we lose the meta-ethical basis for the eradication of slavery."
At the time, I had to leave to catch a bus to the airport, so my answer was cut short. Still, "Nonsense! Sheer supposition," is the essence. The full answer should have been:
First, it wasn't the West's adoption of Christian values that caused us to abandon slavery. While Christianity had an enormous impact on western culture, the question is far more complicated than that, with many factors in play.
Second, there's no way you could have known what the pagan world, in the hypothetical situation of it continuing, might or might not have done.
Third, I've shown throughout this whole thread (although you may not have believed it) that slavery is based on the Bible, and that the abolitionist side simply interpreted the Bible to suit their (superior) morals.
Fourth, that has nothing to do with the subject of this discussion: is the Bible pro-slavery or not?
While that may sound self-deprecating in some small way, it can also mean that I know an over-confident person when I see one. As they say, "It takes one to know one when he sees it..."
