Who Here Believes Born Again Christians...

Kenyon Ledford · Apr 9, 2019

Kaon said:
This is an excellent way to put it in modern. Trolling.

Unfortunately, the institutions took the trololol, and made distorted doctrine from it.

I got that from the kinetic Ben Courson. He's awesome, but sometimes too hip-hop-fast and as I try to absorb something he's off on the next machine gun rant

Yes, that is a sad drink they squeezed out into an old, stained cup.

Kenyon Ledford · Apr 9, 2019

Ken C. said:
It's easy to do. I think that if a new, born again believer who is only a day or two old were to be reading these posts they would probably say 'whoa, what I have gotten myself into.' And Satan is on the sidelines egging it all on. It reminds me of how Satan deceived Eve in the garden. 'Did God really say...'

Yes, THANK YOU! Exactly.

Monk Brendan · Apr 9, 2019

Hank77 said:
Maybe it's the 'accepting Jesus' that you are questioning and I'm misunderstanding you?

Exactly.

Kenny'sID · Apr 9, 2019

Kaon said:
Kenny, there is a serious problem in the "Church," as it were.

We can't even get to sanctification (eventual, and ultimate pure obedience to the Word of God), or what sin is, because there is a disconnect on whether we are supposed to follow the Law of God itself - let alone which ones to begin with. The disciples tried this when they tried to condense the Law (which we are to follow in obedience) into four or five tenants that the gentiles should begin with - since they were drinking spiritual milk.

The institution has not moved away from drinking spiritual milk after these centuries; people still believe obedience comes down to a literal two, or four laws. The Most High God has not changed His standards.

I got the idea from your OP, we weren't to be concerned with any laws? Also, who made this claim?:

Kenyon Ledford said:
I'm gobsmacked by the Christians here who think if you don't follow the entire Bible to the letter God will revoke that promise and send you to hell.

I ask because I have never seen it said one time.

As for what things we are to be concerned with, they are written several times, and are mostly entailed in the ten commandments, with a few additions. However if one chooses a ticket to sin they will fight the fact that there are rules tooth and nail simply because they like their sin and to go to heaven too.

Monk Brendan · Apr 9, 2019

cuplet said:
We know about John 3:3. Unless a man ( person) is Born Again,they will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These are the words of Lord Jesus. And we are to be Filled with the Holy Spirit. It is Biblical, in fact, the Lord is telling us straight up. I am taught that it's not enough to do Good Works, alone. We are saved by Grace,through Faith. Good works will not ,in and of themselves, do it. We do good works because we are saved, not in order to be saved. ( Big difference). And we give God the Glory. This is ,indeed Biblical. Being Born Again is surely Biblical.

NOWHERE does the Bible tell us to "accept Jesus into our hearts," much less in John 3.

Halbhh · Apr 9, 2019

Kenyon Ledford said:
who think if you don't follow the entire Bible to the letter God will revoke that promise and send you to hell.

Who here believes that?

I'd think -0-.

But did you mean something else? Is the question about whether there is anything at all we must do or else eventually lose salvation in the end if we always refuse?

Like if a person for instance refuses to do as Paul wrote in Romans 8, and follows the flesh, refusing to follow the spirit? --

12"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. "

Yes, we can know this is a real requirement to continue in Christ.

As Paul, John, Peter all write, we must not continue in old sins.

Hank77 · Apr 9, 2019

Monk Brendan said:
Exactly.

Accepting Jesus means simply believing the Gospel of Christ, being reconciled to God through/in His Son.
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 9, 2019

Hank77 said:
Accepting Jesus means simply believing the Gospel of Christ, being reconciled to God through/in His Son.
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

One can be reconciled to God without ever accepting Jesus into one's heart. It's because it's God who does the reconciling.

Oldmantook · Apr 9, 2019

Kaon said:
It should: I meant exactly what I said.

The Word of God Himself trumps Paul, James, John and any other man that has ever existed.

I don't follow men, although (as I said before,) I do not believe any of the aforementioned men are against the Word of God Himself.

You can follow whatever or whomever you wish! Just don't claim that you follow the NT.

Kaon · Apr 9, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I got the idea from your OP, we weren't to be concerned with any laws

As for what things we are to be concerned with, they are written several times, and are mostly entailed in the ten commandments, with a few additions. However if one chooses a ticket to sin they will fight the fact that there are rules tooth and nail simply because they like their sin and to go to heaven too.

I didn't write the OP.

I agree. Everyone is responsible for their own spiritual trajectory.

Kaon · Apr 9, 2019

Oldmantook said:
You can follow whatever or whomever you wish! Just don't claim that you follow the NT.

I follow the Word of God Himself; He is the only human I follow.

The NT is the Word of God in part, because no words can be put in books the things the Word of God has said. I do not follow canon or doctrine of men, even if those men do NOT contradict the Word of God.

Who do you follow? The Word of God Himself said He is the way, Truth and Life. He didn't say any of the disciples were, nor the prophets.

People really need to understand and decide if they follow dogma and men, or if they follow the Word of God Himself.

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 9, 2019

ms.smith said:
As if the blood of Christ is only as effective as laundry detergent or a razor blade.

I do believe Christ's blood is sufficient, but I also believe He expects us to ask for forgiveness. When He modeled prayer for us, it included asking for forgiveness. I don't think we can sin without any necessity to ask forgiveness when it happens.

Haha I’m going to assume you realize I acknowledge there is nothing in this universe that can compare to Christ’s Blood and that my example is purely an example, and that you’re not ridiculing me because laundry detergent is some offensive example for you.

BNR32FAN · Apr 10, 2019

Kaon said:
The Word of God is talking to everyone who has eyes to see, and ears to hear. The disciples are the firstfruit of His instruction - but it applies to all of us who want to be a follow of Christ/Christians.

Because He is speaking to all of us, including the disciples, and reminding us to keep His commandments. It is akin to anaphora - specifically the "remain in me/keep my commandments" that He repeatedly emphasizes.

He is using another literary device - intrusion. He is talking not only to the disciples, but all of us. Lest we forget, we need to remain in Him (keep His commandments) if we want to produce fruit. If we don't produce fruit, it is because we do not remain in Him. Anyone listening to this message with ears to hear and eyes to see is the target. The lost are already ignorant of what He is saying, even though He is also talking about them.

Right. And what is the metaphor of fire and burning used to describe?

Hell.

Who goes to hell?

Those who aren't resurrected, and die the second death.

Who dies the second death?

Those who do not keep the commandments of the Word of God Himself and the commandments of the Most High God.

What are the commandments of the Most High God?

They are what they have always been - as He does not change, and He has never declared His Law, or commandments as null, void or inactive for anyone that wants to be His son/daughter.

We have been told all things. It is up to us to believe it, and do it. The Word of God Himself is very clear.

So we agree then that someone can lose their salvation for disobedience?

BNR32FAN · Apr 10, 2019

Monk Brendan said:
NOWHERE does the Bible tell us to "accept Jesus into our hearts," much less in John 3.

“Jesus replied, “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-38‬

BNR32FAN · Apr 10, 2019

Hank77 said:
Accepting Jesus means simply believing the Gospel of Christ, being reconciled to God through/in His Son.
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

After we are reconciled we must walk in the Spirit in order to receive salvation.

BNR32FAN · Apr 10, 2019

Kaon said:
It should: I meant exactly what I said.

The Word of God Himself trumps Paul, James, John and any other man that has ever existed.

I don't follow men, although (as I said before,) I do not believe any of the aforementioned men are against the Word of God Himself.

You don’t believe that the Bible is the word of God? All of the scriptures were written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit. God never wrote anything Himself.

Unnamed Guy · Apr 10, 2019

Dale said:
I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Most Methodist ministers in the 19th century were itinerant in the sense that they followed a route, giving two or three church services a day. Historically, the Methodists and the Baptists were the largest religious groups in the US. I don't know how you go from there to saying that most churches don't have doctrines.

Just read the other posts on this page. These people have no clear idea what they are officially supposed to believe. They are making things up.

Unnamed Guy · Apr 10, 2019

cuplet said:
We know about John 3:3. Unless a man ( person) is Born Again,they will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These are the words of Lord Jesus. And we are to be Filled with the Holy Spirit. It is Biblical, in fact, the Lord is telling us straight up. I am taught that it's not enough to do Good Works, alone. We are saved by Grace,through Faith. Good works will not ,in and of themselves, do it. We do good works because we are saved, not in order to be saved. ( Big difference). And we give God the Glory. This is ,indeed Biblical. Being Born Again is surely Biblical.

John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

A figure of speech is a departure from normal discourse for the purpose of emphasizing something. There are about 900 kinds of figures in the bible, and dozens of variations of some kinds. An idiom is a word or phrase that has a special meaning in a certain culture. "Born again" was an idiom unique to Nazareth. It meant to become childlike. Nicodemus was not from Nazareth so he had no clue that it had other than a literal meaning.

You might like to obtain "Figures Of sPeech In The Bible" by E. W. Bullinger. You can get a hard copy at any bookstore and free copies are available on line in various formats. Mr. Bullinger was an Anglican minister about a century ago.

Ken Rank · Apr 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No you misunderstood me brother Ken I was not implying that you believe that salvation can be revoked I was saying that IF you believe that salvation can be revoked then the scriptures don’t contradict each other. In answer to your question what is the Greek definition of the word faith? (Hint) I just posted it along with the definitions of the Greek words for believe and believer in post #147.

I am sorry, I did misunderstand. And yes, I do agree with that.

As far as the definitions... I actually have a different view than you when it comes to defining words. While I applaud you for thinking outside the box and putting in the time needed to get a good definition of words to have better context, I don't quite go where you are going with them. What I mean is, faith and shema (Hebrew for "hear") are actually two words with the same meaning. Anyone who has studied Hebrew knows that shema isn't just "hear" but rather, "hear and do" and who is heard is God. Paul wrote that faith comes by hearing the word of God and James added that it is dead without works.... hear and do.

Belief does not require hearing God, one can be convinced of something and not have heard or read from God. So while I again, applaud you for creating an environment of scholarship, don't get stuck on the Greek. Even if the NT was written in it (which I don't hold to) the writers were Jews, from Judea, and their mindset was Jewish. I am not exalting that, I am simply saying it matters with the context.

Blessings.
Ken

Ken Rank · Apr 10, 2019

Unnamed Guy said:
John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

A figure of speech is a departure from normal discourse for the purpose of emphasizing something. There are about 900 kinds of figures in the bible, and dozens of variations of some kinds. An idiom is a word or phrase that has a special meaning in a certain culture. "Born again" was an idiom unique to Nazareth. It meant to become childlike. Nicodemus was not from Nazareth so he had no clue that it had other than a literal meaning.

You might like to obtain "Figures Of sPeech In The Bible" by E. W. Bullinger. You can get a hard copy at any bookstore and free copies are available on line in various formats. Mr. Bullinger was an Anglican minister about a century ago.

I agree with most of your thoughts and am happy to see you mention Bullinger. But I don't think you are going to be able to prove that "born again" was an idiom unique to Nazareth. Even if you could, Nazareth and Jerusalem were only 65 miles apart. The phrase or idiom "born again" actually appears in other ancient Jewish writings. In fact, I think it was very well understood in that time and THAT is why Messiah was speaking to Nicodemus as he did. This line, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" could be taken more as one of surprise... "Don't you know these? You're a TEACHER!" Anyway, the phrase was in more wide spread use.... I can share some sources if you'd like.

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