Why are the Democrats in Congress not supporting Israel?

Ana the Ist said:

Here's a pdf from two foreign policy experts detailing the benefits of allying with Israel.

Israel: A Strategic Asset for the United States



Unless you're a foreign policy expert and have some understanding of these things.

I don't see any middle east nations suddenly becoming friendly if we weren't allies with Israel.

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Those don't actually speak of "alliance."

There are other words that speak of different kinds of relationships, such as "partners" for various purposes, but an "ally" is someone who will shed blood in your behalf.

Israel has never been that for the US.

JosephZ said:

It's important to remember that there are millions of Palestinians living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Only a few of them have committed acts of violence towards Israelis.

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It's probably more important to remember that those millions of Palestinians elected a Hamas...a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and openly supporting violence against innocent civilians...to control the Palestinian government.

If a group of people knocked on your door today and told you that you had to surrender your house and land to them because God wants him to have it, how would you react?

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How is that relevant? The Jewish people of Israel didn't just show up one day unbidden....they legally acquired the land from the British.

What's more is they didn't demand that anyone leave. It's not like they showed up in Palestine and said "this is all ours now...everyone currently living here has to go".

What would be your attitude towards those people?

Would it be wrong for you to resist and protest against their efforts to forcefully remove you from your home?

Would you expect me or anyone else to think of you as a bad person if you chose to resist the unjust takeover of your property?

Wouldn't you expect most people to side with you on this issue?

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Here's a better analogy. Let's say you rented a home for 10 years, then one day your landlord dies....and his property is inherited by his son. His son, the new landlord, tells you that he's planning to remove the house you're living in and build some condos.

You tell him "No way! I've been living here for 10 years! It's mine!". You take him to court...but lose...because it isn't your property. The new landlord understands why you're upset....so he offers to build you your own house, right next to the condos.

You refuse the offer though...and tell him you'll fight him for it. You fight, lose, and get kicked off the property. The new landlord is still a really nice guy though....so he gives you one of the condos, hoping that you'll accept this act of generosity.

You don't though...instead, you decide you're going to victimize the people who move into the condos at every opportunity you get. It doesn't matter if they are young, old, male, female, mothers or children....you dedicate yourself to destroying the condos and everyone living in them.

Who is the "bad guy" in that scenario? The landlord who sold the condos to new people? The new people who live in the condos? Or....you...the person who despite all attempts at compromise and generosity, is willing to harm people in attempt to get property which was never really yours?

TLK Valentine said:

No, you're right... we broke it, we bought it.

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Broke what?

Still, while I'll peruse the pdf when I'm not on my phone, still seems that the biggest draw is joint Intel and protection from all the nations which became incensed because we supported them in the first place.

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That seems like a rather flawed claim. Does Iran hate us because we support Israel? Partly. They also hate us for supporting an Iranian ruler who favored a more "western" system of human rights and values. They like their women oppressed, their homosexuals tortured and executed, and they aren't really fans of anyone who tries to change that.

Be wary of the man who breaks your legs then offers you a discount on wheelchairs.

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Be wary of cheap cliches that sound clever, but don't make much sense if you give them any real thought.

RDKirk said:

There are other words that speak of different kinds of relationships, such as "partners" for various purposes, but an "ally" is someone who will shed blood in your behalf.

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Oh I see...you're using your own personal definition of "ally"...not the common definition.

Ana the Ist said:

Oh I see...you're using your own personal definition of "ally"...not the common definition.

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It's the basic definition, minus political spin. Allies are people who will fight with you and for you.

That's never been Israel.

LoAmmi said:

Actually saw it on Parts Unkown during the Israel episode. The piece was pretty even-handed and I have no doubt that it is true. My wife has family in Israel and have said that's pretty common for Palestinians to be restricted going into any of the settlements for fear of violence. I don't have any direct links to the law or anything, but I have no reason to doubt these folks.

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I'm not familiar with that show. From the sound of it though...this was a more recent settlement and not the more established part of Israel? Or are we talking about a place where Israel has settled for some time?

When the man was denied entry...what was the reason given? Or did they not show that part?

RDKirk said:

It's the basic definition, minus political spin.

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Nope.

Definition of ALLY

1: a sovereign or state associated with another by treaty or league "America and its allies"

2: one that is associated with another as a helper : a person or group that provides assistance and support in an ongoing effort, activity, or struggle

the definition of ally

4:a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose

Now, I'm not sure what you mean by political spin....it's a political term in this context after all. I haven't been able to find any common definition of an ally that requires any bloodshed...so perhaps you're thinking of a different word?

Clearly, Israel meets the definition of ally.

Ana the Ist said:

Broke what?

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That seems like a rather flawed claim. Does Iran hate us because we support Israel? Partly. They also hate us for supporting an Iranian ruler who favored a more "western" system of human rights and values.

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Western politics, you mean... and in the interest of honesty, we did .ore than support him, we backed a coup to overthrow their democratically elected leader and put our boy in charge.

They like their women oppressed, their homosexuals tortured and executed, and they aren't really fans of anyone who tries to change that.

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Did they like that before or after we showed them how "western values" work? "We don't want that guy running your country; this one will do it instead, because we demand it."

Be wary of cheap cliches that sound clever, but don't make much sense if you give them any real thought.

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I'll keep that in mind next time I'm told to pull myself up by my bootstraps.

Ana the Ist said:

I can't imagine why they refuse to stand for Palestinians. Perhaps the Israeli ambassador to the UN could come up with an answer. Here he is holding some Palestinian children's reading material in 2015...
View attachment 254320

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Palestinian Arabic looks a lot like English... who knew?

Ana the Ist said:

Nope.

Definition of ALLY

1: a sovereign or state associated with another by treaty or league "America and its allies"

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Okay, by definition number one, which treaty or league is it that both the US and Israel are members of?

Definition number one is the only one that counts when you're likely to ask American troops to put their lives on the line.

cow1
/kou/
noun

1. 1.
   a fully grown female animal of a domesticated breed of ox, kept to produce milk or beef.
   "a dairy cow"
   • 
     
   • 
     
2. 2.
   INFORMAL
   an unpleasant or disliked woman.
   "what does he see in that cow?"

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Notice how by the time you get even to the second definition, you have moved out of terms that anyone whose life is on the line can count on.

Crazy question, from a conservative:

Why should any of us be investing so much in Israel?

I understand that we might wish to have friendly relations with them.. but they bombed the USS Liberty and our exaggerated relationship with them earns the ire of much of the Middle East.

Why not just normalize our relationship with them? We don't really get anything out of it and I do not see a reason why we should be so heavily invested in Israel. American politics & power are better spent at issues that actually matter to America -- and is Israel helping us with any of that? No.

If it wasn't for the BDS portion of the bill, it probably would have been passed by Democrats. But I really don't understand why Republicans are so hot to endorse a bill that restricts the First Amendment.

usexpat97 said:

I would just like to point out to Christians that the #1 Israeli shill here could care less about "God giving" anybody the land. They're atheist.

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@Ana the Ist

Shill? Nah... I like this guy.

Pommer said:

I should open my mind to the possibility that a bronze-age document has geopolitical implications and should want my country to have as its policy actions that bring about Armageddon?

Are you serious?

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Sometimes I feel like I'm casting pearls before swine.

TLK Valentine said:

Western politics, you mean... and in the interest of honesty, we did .ore than support him, we backed a coup to overthrow their democratically elected leader and put our boy in charge.

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Ok...then despite your earlier comments you do understand that ending our support of Israel isn't going to win us friendly terms with Iran.

Between the choices of having a friendly military and intelligence asset nearby a hostile enemy nation...and not...you don't see the benefits of our alliance with Israel?

What exactly is your argument against our continued support of Israel? It sounds like you do understand why they're a huge asset for the US...

Did they like that before or after we showed them how "western values" work? "We don't want that guy running your country; this one will do it instead, because we demand it."

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You're asking me if a primarily Muslim nation was primarily Muslim before the coup?

Yes.

I don't really see how that's relevant though unless you're Superman and plan on reversing the Earth's rotation by about 80-90 years.

I'll keep that in mind next time I'm told to pull myself up by my bootstraps.

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If it wasn't for the BDS portion of the bill, it probably would have been passed by Democrats. But I really don't understand why Republicans are so hot to endorse a bill that restricts the First Amendment.

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Because they can be bought. We already knew they can be bullied.

RDKirk said:

Okay, by definition number one, which treaty or league is it that both the US and Israel are members of?

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I don't know...but by definition number 4 I don't need one.

Look, if you want to use your own personal definitions for words...that's fine. You just shouldn't be surprised when people don't understand what you're saying.

Definition number one is the only one that counts when you're likely to ask American troops to put their lives on the line.

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Because troops won't obey orders without a formal treaty in place?

I get that you were in the military....I don't think you get to speak for them though

Notice how by the time you get even to the second definition, you have moved out of terms that anyone whose life is on the line can count on.

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Because treaties are never broken? Honestly, I don't see what your point is here.

TLK Valentine said:

Palestinian Arabic looks a lot like English... who knew?

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Lol my guess is that it was translated for the benefit of the audience.

Of course, if you want to claim the Israeli ambassador is engaging in fraud/false testimony before the UN....feel free.

I don't want you to think that you have to subtly suggest ridiculous claims because you're afraid I'll call you out on them if you say them directly. I'll call you out on them regardless

Ana the Ist said:

Ok...then despite your earlier comments you do understand that ending our support of Israel isn't going to win us friendly terms with Iran.

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Apologies if my earlier comments led you to that mistaken conclusion. I shall be more careful in the future to avoid such confusion.

Our government has made several major mistakes in dealing with Iran... and our current administration, for reasons we can only speculate, seems bent on making things worse.

No single diplomatic act is going to mend that relationship anytime soon.

Between the choices of having a friendly military and intelligence asset nearby a hostile enemy nation...and not...you don't see the benefits of our alliance with Israel?

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Noting that our support of Israel predates our meddling in Iran's internal politics, one has to ask if the former at least partially influenced our decision to do the latter?

What exactly is your argument against our continued support of Israel? It sounds like you do understand why they're a huge asset for the US...

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I recognize the benefits of keeping Israel as an ally...even though those benefits mainly are to offset the drawbacks incurred by taking them as one in the first place.

Complicated, isn't it?

What I don't recognize is the prevailing attitude that, as our ally, Israel can do no wrong, and that any action they take is morally correct because... they're Israel.

You're asking me if a primarily Muslim nation was primarily Muslim before the coup?

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No, I'm telling you that a primarily Muslim nation did not embrace radical religious fundamentalism until after they overthrew the puppet government installed by the coup.

I'm telling you that fundamentalism is reactionary in nature... people don't radicalize because they are for it as much as they are against a (real or imagined) threat to them.

The US provided that threat, and Iran's religious leaders are able to keep people under their sway by convincing them (with considerable ease, I'm sorry to say) that the "western corruption" represented by the US is a continuing threat.

Ana the Ist said:

Lol my guess is that it was translated for the benefit of the audience.

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I'm sure it was translated completely accurately... as you said, for the benefit of the audience.

Of course, if you want to claim the Israeli ambassador is engaging in fraud/false testimony before the UN....feel free.

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A diplomat *gasp* misrepresent the truth? Heavens to Betsy, what a terrible thought!

I don't want you to think that you have to subtly suggest ridiculous claims because you're afraid I'll call you out on them if you say them directly. I'll call you out on them regardless

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No, no... Israel is far too... Israel to stoop so low as to engage in propaganda...