What is the woman's role in the family and church?

Romans 8 said:

My Lord, why can't people see what's clearly in front of them? Lord, I pray you give them the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the wisdom to follow you. Amen.

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The thing is, some people in this thread are wondering the same exact thing about you. Why can't *you* see things clearly when it's right there in front of you? One thing that I've had to learn in life (and it has been very difficult) is that things that are very easy for me are not necessarily that way for other people, and vice versa. You are looking through your lens, and I am looking through mine, and the others are looking through theirs, and we ALL see through a mirror darkly. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Romans 8 said:

As Celine Dion so wrongly stated, the children belong to the community and they are not yours.

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In Celine's defense, the death of her husband has had a significant impact. He kept her out of Hollywood circles and she was immensely sheltered. The absence of his presence has opened the floodgates and the wolves have come rushing in.

No Username Found said:

If the Bible isn't the word of God? What is it to you? What exactly is the foundation of your faith? Is the Gospel the word of God? Please tell me you believe in the resurrection.

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i don’t know for sure whether or not the resurrection happened. My experience of god is quite direct and not based on what I would call faith. I think that quite a bit of the gospel is the word of god. God is love. Whatever resonates with love and compassion, light, beauty, wellbeing, kindness, generosity, joy, and nurtures growth and healing is the word of god.

LaBèlla said:

Yes. Some are able to move beyond that place and others can't. They make adjustments and do their best.

I haven't encountered a strong adherence to biblical submission or headship among single Christian men. Most have an egalitarian perspective or dismiss the principle altogether. I've seen greater numbers in married circles.

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Most of what I've seen in complimentarian marriages is that they will *say* all the stuff about headship so that they can appear obedient in how they interpret scripture, but in actual practice, the marriage is actually egalitarian if it's a good, long-lasting relationship. It really can't be anything else without deteriorating into some form of abuse.

No Username Found said:

So what the is the proper translation of "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."? How would this passage be applied? There must be some application for it. Otherwise, it is being ignored.

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A more accurate interpretation of Ephesians 5:22-24
21 Be filled with the Spirit, while you are supporting one another out of respect for the Anointed One,
22 wives, with your own husbands, as with the Lord.
23 The man is the source of the woman just as the Anointed One is the source of the assembly. He himself is the protector of the body.
24 Just as the assembly is a support for the Anointed One, so also let the wives be a support for their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as the Anointed One loved the assembly. He sacrificed himself,

uJpotavssw (hupotasso) means support. The often quoted verse "Wives submit to your husbands" which has made its way into nearly every English Bible version, has zero occurrences in the Greek text. uJpotavssw (hupotasso) erroneously appearing as an imperative (in verse 22 where no verb appears), is in fact a participle and is in verse 21: "supporting one another". Even if mistranslated "submitting", it would be"submitting to one another". The actual verb is "be filled" at the beginning of verse 21.

We can also apply this suggestion of subordination to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 which supposedly is the words of Paul. In fact, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is a quote from a letter Paul received from the Corinthian church. When you read it, it quickly becomes apparent that it is a quote. Apostle Paul does this numerous times throughout 1 Corinthians - Paul quotes from the letter and then immediately refutes it.

The context of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:
Paul quotes from the letter sent to him by the Corinthian assembly.
34 "The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."

Paul now angrily rebukes the quoted letter:
36 What? Did the Word of God come originally from you! Were you the only ones that it reached!

bekkilyn said:

Most of what I've seen in complimentarian marriages is that they will *say* all the stuff about headship so that they can appear obedient in how they interpret scripture, but in actual practice, the marriage is actually egalitarian if it's a good, long-lasting relationship. It really can't be anything else without deteriorating into some form of abuse.

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I have no intimate knowledge of complementary or egalitarian unions. And by intimate I'm referencing significant exposure to both behind closed doors. I have witnessed successful unions from couples whose equality was not in question but whose function within the relationship differed to some degree. I've seen happy marriages where the man was the head of household (between 47-60+ years) and each person's contribution was valued and respected.

That's what I want.

Paidiske said:

You said God gave strength to men... as if God didn't also give strength to women.

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I merely said that the strength that God gave men is intended for protection, not harm. I have no clue as to why you assume that I intended that only men receive their strength from God. I understand that context is hard to see in a text. But believe me when I say that I am not trying to degrade women or make them out to be inferior.

Paidiske said:

No, not really.
Who acknowledged what is good in the ministry of women and in egalitarian marriages and did not seek to engage in dialogue in a way which undermined those women or sought to persuade them to live according to the man's convictions. Who didn't claim that those women were evil or the source of other social evils.

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I think you may have me confused with someone else. Where on this thread did I ever suggest that women are evil and a source of social evils? The only thing I have ever proposed is that biblical roles in the marriage work when they are followed by both the man and the woman. I always emphasized that it is the man who is more often the point of failure. I am encouraging men to step up to the plate an be men and obeying God's instructions to men to love their wives. This whole back and forth we have been having is an argument to defend women not following their biblical roles because men seem to fail in fulfilling their roles. It comes across as a "he is not following the rules so neither should I."

In regards to rationality, lets be honest. If someone were to read the text, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord," what would a rational person conclude? Would a rational person conclude that wives do the opposite? Yes, someone can come to a rational conclusion through deeper study. But at face value, only an irrational person would conclude anything other than wives are to submit to their husbands.

Romans 8 said:

Possibly he helped her to a small degree, but I do believe that the "A" list Hollywood actors and the most popular musicians are indebted for their "success". I believe they made commitments and contracts and when the time is right the debt must be paid. They're all sellouts to the enemy. God have mercy.

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I'm aware of the conspiracy theories on this subject and others related to it. Do you believe God calls people to the entertainment industry and high profile professions?

@No Username Found You may not have explicitly said that women in authority positions are evil, but by arguing for our exclusion from those positions, you stand with those who make those claims.

The argument isn't about defending women who don't follow Biblical roles, it's about the fact that some see "Biblical roles" as so restrictive in the first place.

You might see yourself as arguing for men to step up, but it comes across to the women involved in the conversation as arguing for us to shut up and step back (into the kitchen, presumably).

As for the argument about a rational reading, a rational person would, it seems to me, recognise that a blanket command to submit can't be taken at a surface level as a literal and direct command from God, because of the damage it causes to read it that way.

LaBèlla said:

How do you discern what is or isn't of Him? Have you backtracked on your summations at any point? Has this impacted your faith in a negative way?

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I think you judge a tree by its fruit. Yes, I’ve backtracked on my summations quite a bit, but more when I was younger. Like I said in another post a few minutes ago, the word “faith” doesn’t fit my spiritual life. I believe things that I have experienced to be true. I find the simple teachings of Jesus to be true when applied. Anything in the scriptures that contradicts Jesus basic teachings is, IMO, of man and not of god.

No Username Found said:

In regards to rationality, lets be honest. If someone were to read the text, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord," what would a rational person conclude? Would a rational person conclude that wives do the opposite? Yes, someone can come to a rational conclusion through deeper study. But at face value, only an irrational person would conclude anything other than wives are to submit to their husbands.

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The fact that the English translations tend to distort the meaning of the original Greek texts doesn't make the surface conclusions that you label as rational to be truth. While a person cannot be faulted for coming to a conclusion based on what they believe a passage is saying, there is a problem when a person continues to cling to that conclusion no matter what, even if it turns out to be faulty, when alternate evidence is found.

Sparagmos said:

I continue to ask the question because your answer is vague and noncommittal. Those quotes show that Church fathers did not have the same analysis of the scripture that modern proponents of “headship” do. They demonstrate that men of that time used the Bible to promote the denigration of women. They fully believed that men were superior to women. There is no love in those quotes. There is no recognition of the value of feminine traits, only disdain for them. The origin of your doctrine is rotten and it isn’t of god.

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I am sorry that my answer is not what you would like it to be.

Sparagmos said:

Thankfully, most Christians don’t believe that slaves should submit to masters or children should submit to abusive parents. We believe that anyone being abused should be freed from that abuse. Nor do most people believe in monarchical forms of government, we see democracy as the ideal. It is 2019, right?

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Both the current year and our personal cultural beliefs are insignificant in a discussion about "what does the Bible teach and what is right/wrong in God's eyes".

So, if you want a Christian discussion about women's role with me, we can discuss Bible or our personal opinions and thats all.

Paidiske said:

We know that many parents don't educate their children on this stuff, and I think it's too important to leave to chance, so I'm quite content for sex education to be in the school curriculum. (And really? Nothing but math and science? I'm glad my daughter's school has a better and more rounded curriculum than that!)

Do I see danger? Not really. Our children have to grow up and learn to navigate a world in which not everyone agrees or shares their values (or their household's values, or their religion's values). Our job as parents is not to shelter them from that fact but equip them for it.

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I actually think a parent may not be the right person to teach their kids about sex. It’s a very uncomfortable subject for most parents and as a result most don’t do a proper job of educating their kids about sex. Most people did not learn about sex from their parents.

Romans 8 said:

Maybe. I can't think of any examples though. Can you? Every actor and musician that's made it big has sold out in one way or another.

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Yes, I believe the Lord anoints work in many areas. But the demonic assignment against some industries is greater than others. Music, movies and fashion are the worst.

I'm called to fashion. That wasn't revealed overnight and it came after much warfare and spiritual growth. The Lord snatched me from Satan's hands. I could never pledge myself to him. That exit was hard fought. It wasn't a cakewalk.

And in truth I walk a fine line. He doesn't tempt me with wealth or success. He uses others to derail me by fostering alignments that would lead me astray.

It isn't an easy road. I'm certain the same is true for those earnestly seeking their way in the industries named. You must have an ability to stand alone when everything opposes you. And if you look outside of the narrow path you've been called to tred you'll fail.

The reality of that statement vexes my spirit. To fail Him is to fall.

Sparagmos said:

I actually think a parent may not be the right person to teach their kids about sex. It’s a very uncomfortable subject for most parents and as a result most don’t do a proper job of educating their kids about sex. Most people did not learn about sex from their parents.

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Mine just gave me a book when I was about nine or ten years old and the book went through the whole egg and sperm thing. I loved to read and had been reading on my own since I was three years old, so I did actually read it. Even to this day, I couldn't imagine either my mom or dad wanting to bring up the subject with me in an actual discussion.

Romans 8 said:

My Lord, why can't people see what's clearly in front of them? Lord, I pray you give them the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the wisdom to follow you. Amen.

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I hope your prayer is sincere. It comes across to me as performative, condescending virtue signaling. Why make your prayer public and post it as a reply to a specific person?

Paidiske said:

You may not have explicitly said that women in authority positions are evil, but by arguing for our exclusion from those positions, you stand with those who make those claims.

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Depends on the definition of evil. I would reather say "wrong".

Its wrong to use scissors as hammer, its not necessarily "evil", technically. It becomes evil, if it breaks the commandments of God, of apostles, of fathers, of husbands.

Paidiske said:

You might see yourself as arguing for men to step up, but it comes across to the women involved in the conversation as arguing for us to shut up and step back (into the kitchen, presumably).

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There is not much to do in the kitchen, all the day. You seem to have some kitchen phobia. Biblically speaking, wife should take care of household as such, about children, about husband.

Paidiske said:

As for the argument about a rational reading, a rational person would, it seems to me, recognise that a blanket command to submit can't be taken at a surface level as a literal and direct command from God, because of the damage it causes to read it that way.

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Its surely not rational to read it in the exact opposite way, like you are teaching.