What is the woman's role in the family and church?

Paidiske · Apr 9, 2019

No, I want to see the actual curriculum. On a quick scan, (which is all I have time for right now) I don't see anything that backs up your claim that they're teaching kids in the first year of school about gay sex.

On the contrary, the level 1 curriculum for that topic is pitched at about this level:

• Human beings can love people of the same gender and people of another gender.
• Some people are heterosexual, which means they can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of another gender.
• Some people are homosexual, which means they can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the same gender.
• Homosexual men and women are also known as gay men and lesbians.
• People deserve respect regardless of who they are attracted to.
• Making fun of people by calling them gay (e.g. “homo,” [edited because this tripped the profanity filter] “queer”) is disrespectful and hurtful.

Given that some of the children in these classrooms will have same-sex parents, none of this is going to be shocking news even to young children; but the message of respect is really important.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
And no, you're right, that doesn't prevent rape or murder, and on the whole men have greater skeletal muscle mass. That doesn't mean women are weak, as if skeletal muscle mass is the only strength that matters.

I never said women are weak. I said men are generally stronger than women. That is a statistically factual. Thus, if men are generally stronger than women, women are generally weaker than men. That doesn't mean they are weak, just weaker than men...generally. And I agree, skeletal muscle mass is not the only strength. But in regards to protecting yourself and those you love, it matters a whole lot more than the contractions of your uterus.

Paidiske said:
Feel free to back up this claim by posting supportively.

And I didn't say your interpretations were invalid because you were a male. I said you didn't understand the subjective experiences of women which you have not shared, and cannot share.

I thought I was. But my position is not one based on misogyny and chauvinism, by position is based on scripture any rational person could easily understand. Believe me when I tell you that I want to believe that women and men are equal in authority. But scripture clearly says they are not. I understand that there are subjective experiences of women that I have not shared, but the Holy Spirit who is responsible for the Bible does. The disagreement is not with me, it is with scripture like:
Ephesians 5:22-24
1 Timothy 2:13
Genesis 2:18-20
1 Corinthians 11:2-3
1 Peter 3:1.

bekkilyn · Apr 9, 2019

No Username Found said:
I never said women are weak. I said men are generally stronger than women. That is a statistically factual. Thus, if men are generally stronger than women, women are generally weaker than men. That doesn't mean they are weak, just weaker than men...generally. And I agree, skeletal muscle mass is not the only strength. But in regards to protecting yourself and those you love, it matters a whole lot more than the contractions of your uterus.

I thought I was. But my position is not one based on misogyny and chauvinism, by position is based on scripture any rational person could easily understand. Believe me when I tell you that I want to believe that women and men are equal in authority. But scripture clearly says they are not. I understand that there are subjective experiences of women that I have not shared, but the Holy Spirit who is responsible for the Bible does. The disagreement is not with me, it is with scripture like:
Ephesians 5:22-24
1 Timothy 2:13
Genesis 2:18-20
1 Corinthians 11:2-3
1 Peter 3:1.

If you're sincerely interested, you might want to look into reading this book:

Man and Woman, One in Christ by Philip Barton Payne

The author begins his introduction with:

My belief in both inerrancy and the equality of man and woman may seem absurd to many on each side of the egalitarian/complimentarian divide. How can a thinking, textual critic with an enlightened egalitarian view still cling to the notion of biblical inerrancy? Conversely, how can someone who believes everything taught by God's inspired Word come to the position that the Bible permits women to teach and exercise authority over men in the church?

All of the verses you list above are included in the book. There really is no contradiction in scripture for men and women having equal authority, though of course the true spiritual authority is Christ alone.

There are other books and sources available that have perspective on this same issue, but I'm emphasizing the book I linked because it was written by someone with a very literal view of scripture, and who is also not a woman presenting her case, but a man who would not have the same need to present that same case.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
Then please, for the love and mercy of God, please stop repeating the lines used to keep women from their full potential.

Thanks. I have gone out of my way to educate myself on abuse, pastoral care of people who've been abused, etc. It is a fact, though, that most pastors/ministers/priests have little training in such a specialised area, and can be woefully ignorant.

Sadly true. I think most believe it unlikely to happen in their congregation and so spend their time focusing on other things. Pastors in the city at least have the luxury of being able to refer people to Christian counselors and such.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
Only if you think Paul primarily has authority in view when he talks about the "head;" but it's quite plausible that he's talking about identity (using head as in source, rather than head as in locus of control).

No, because the wife will also have to answer to God.

Says someone of whom this submission will (very conveniently) never be asked. Walk a mile in my shoes before telling me they're "not difficult" to dance in.

And strength isn't just something God gave men. God gave strength to human beings. (Do you know how much strength it takes to birth a child?)

As I understand it, the man's the "head" because in the Creation stories, woman (Eve) comes out of, comes from, man (Adam).

In a similar way, Christ's the "head" because the Church comes out of, comes from, Christ.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Apr 9, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Paul is giving the same message to both the wife and husband. Paul advises the wife to *choose* to submit to her husband (rather than submit *only* because she is legally required to on threat of Roman punishment)
.

bekkilyn said:
What Paul is doing is teaching these Ephesian women that they now have a choice in the matter. These women were *already* submitting to their husbands by Roman law.

First, many women weren't submitting to their husbands. Which is why Paul addressed this in the church of Corinth in 1 Corinthians 14. Second, similar passages are found in the Old Testament, long before the Roman Empire.

Proverbs 12:4
A wife of noble character is her husband’s crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones.
Proverbs 19:13
A foolish child is a father’s ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is like the constant dripping of a leaky roof.
Proverbs 21:9
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Proverbs 21:19
Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife.

Paidiske · Apr 9, 2019

No Username Found said:
I never said women are weak.

You said God gave strength to men... as if God didn't also give strength to women.

No Username Found said:
I thought I was.

No, not really.

I have known many men who have been convinced that women's leadership in the church or the family is not God's ideal, but who have still been able to be respectful, affirming and encouraging. Who acknowledged those women as genuine and wholehearted Christians doing their best to love and serve God and neighbour. Who acknowledged what is good in the ministry of women and in egalitarian marriages and did not seek to engage in dialogue in a way which undermined those women or sought to persuade them to live according to the man's convictions. Who didn't claim that those women were evil or the source of other social evils.

I think of a colleague of mine, who very profoundly disagrees with the ordination of women, but who can say to me, "You and I disagree, but I thank God for you, and for what you bring, and that there is space for both of us in the Church."

I'm not seeing a lot of that in this thread.

No Username Found said:
But my position is not one based on misogyny and chauvinism, by position is based on scripture any rational person could easily understand.

See, suggesting that the people who disagree with you are not rational, is not supportive. Or respectful or courteous.

In the end, I don't care what the basis is for your argument for women's repression; if the fruit is bad, then the position doesn't seem to me to be standing on a solid foundation.

bèlla · Apr 9, 2019

No Username Found said:
I thought I was. But my position is not one based on misogyny and chauvinism, by position is based on scripture any rational person could easily understand.

I disagree and don't believe rational thought has anything to do with it. That was the premise behind my post on privilege. It is easy for me to embrace those teachings because I've seen positive examples in my childhood and encountered men who valued that part of my person. It was never maligned.

If my experiences were otherwise it is probable I might have difficulty swallowing it. There are many things which lead us to our perspective and some that require the Holy Spirit's input to reconcile.

This isn't a stumbling block for you but there are other teachings which may prove challenging.

Romans 8 · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
No, I want to see the actual curriculum. On a quick scan, (which is all I have time for right now) I don't see anything that backs up your claim that they're teaching kids in the first year of school about gay sex.

On the contrary, the level 1 curriculum for that topic is pitched at about this level:

• Human beings can love people of the same gender and people of another gender.
• Some people are heterosexual, which means they can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of another gender.
• Some people are homosexual, which means they can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the same gender.
• Homosexual men and women are also known as gay men and lesbians.
• People deserve respect regardless of who they are attracted to.
• Making fun of people by calling them gay (e.g. “homo,” [edited because this tripped the profanity filter] “queer”) is disrespectful and hurtful.

Given that some of the children in these classrooms will have same-sex parents, none of this is going to be shocking news even to young children; but the message of respect is really important.

I researched this a few years back, if I have time I'll dig something up. It's the parents responsibility to educate their children on these topics. The school should not be teaching anything but math and science. Surely you can see the danger in this? They're normalizing this all across the board. "Baphomet", a symbol of Satan is a goat with both male and female parts, a transvestite. This is an Occult/Satanic agenda.

Paidiske · Apr 9, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I researched this a few years back, if I have time I'll dig something up. It's the parents responsibility to educate their children on these topics. The school should not be teaching anything but math and science. Surely you can see the danger in this? They're normalizing this all across the board. "Baphomet", a symbol of Satan is a goat with both male and female parts, a transvestite. This is an Occult/Satanic agenda.

We know that many parents don't educate their children on this stuff, and I think it's too important to leave to chance, so I'm quite content for sex education to be in the school curriculum. (And really? Nothing but math and science? I'm glad my daughter's school has a better and more rounded curriculum than that!)

Do I see danger? Not really. Our children have to grow up and learn to navigate a world in which not everyone agrees or shares their values (or their household's values, or their religion's values). Our job as parents is not to shelter them from that fact but equip them for it.

Romans 8 · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
We know that many parents don't educate their children on this stuff, and I think it's too important to leave to chance, so I'm quite content for sex education to be in the school curriculum. (And really? Nothing but math and science? I'm glad my daughter's school has a better and more rounded curriculum than that!)

Do I see danger? Not really. Our children have to grow up and learn to navigate a world in which not everyone agrees or shares their values (or their household's values, or their religion's values). Our job as parents is not to shelter them from that fact but equip them for it.

Put aside the education for a minute.

Can you see the danger in the LGBT agenda that I pointed out in my earlier thread?

Paidiske · Apr 9, 2019

Romans 8 said:
Can you see the danger in the LGBT agenda that I pointed out in my earlier thread?

Can you give me a summary of

a) the agenda, and
b) the danger

rather than sending me to another thread for it?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Apr 9, 2019

LaBèlla said:
I disagree and don't believe rational thought has anything to do with it. That was the premise behind my post on privilege. It is easy for me to embrace those teachings because I've seen positive examples in my childhood and encountered men who valued that part of my person. It was never maligned.

If my experiences were otherwise it is probable I might have difficulty swallowing it. There are many things which lead us to our perspective and some that require the Holy Spirit's input to reconcile.

This isn't a stumbling block for you but there are other teachings which may prove challenging.

I understand your point. And it is a very valid one I might add. Undoubtedly we live in a fallen world filled with fallen people. I see a similar situation when boys grow up with abusive fathers. As a result of their wounds, they have a very difficult time seeing God as their heavenly father who loves them.

Romans 8 · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
Can you give me a summary of

a) the agenda, and
b) the danger

rather than sending me to another thread for it?

The agenda is to "allow" your child to identify as a boy, girl, or anything at all for that matter. If you're child decides he is a she (through all of the media's influence, and you as a parent attempt to correct this. Your child can be taken away from you by the authorities.

As Celine Dion so wrongly stated, the children belong to the community and they are not yours.

Paidiske · Apr 9, 2019

Romans 8 said:
The agenda is to "allow" your child to identify as a boy, girl, or anything at all for that matter. If you're child decides he is a she (through all of the media's influence, and you as a parent attempt to correct this. Your child can be taken away from you by the authorities.

As Celine Dion so wrongly stated, the children belong to the community and they are not yours.

Well, that would be dangerous if it were an accurate representation of what's going on.

Since it's not (gender dysphoria is a medical condition with clear diagnostic criteria, for a start), I don't see it as particularly dangerous. In fact, I see this presentation of what's going on as dangerous misinformation, likely to compound rather than ameliorate existing problems.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 9, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I researched this a few years back, if I have time I'll dig something up. It's the parents responsibility to educate their children on these topics. The school should not be teaching anything but math and science.

As an English teacher, I must respectfully disagree.

Romans 8 · Apr 9, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
As an English teacher, I must respectfully disagree.

I was not speaking literally. Of course English should be taught too

Romans 8 · Apr 9, 2019

Paidiske said:
Well, that would be dangerous if it were an accurate representation of what's going on.

Since it's not (gender dysphoria is a medical condition with clear diagnostic criteria, for a start), I don't see it as particularly dangerous. In fact, I see this presentation of what's going on as dangerous misinformation, likely to compound rather than ameliorate existing problems.

My Lord, why can't people see what's clearly in front of them? Lord, I pray you give them the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the wisdom to follow you. Amen.

bekkilyn · Apr 9, 2019

No Username Found said:
First, many women weren't submitting to their husbands. Which is why Paul addressed this in the church of Corinth in 1 Corinthians 14. Second, similar passages are found in the Old Testament, long before the Roman Empire.

The church in Corinth was having all sorts of issues. The problem with women speaking and teaching at the time is that they were extremely uneducated. Also, if they were constantly speaking up and talking and asking questions during church services, then that's going to be pretty disruptive, so Paul's advice there would be pretty similar to a teacher telling a disruptive student that they will be glad to answer all of those questions after class. This really has nothing to do with authority or submission within a marriage, but practicality. Also, none of the Greek words Paul uses can be translated to indicate authority.

Lack of education isn't (or shouldn't be) an issue for men or women nowadays, at least in western countries where both men and women have full access to educational resources, including the topic of Christian theology.

Proverbs 12:4
A wife of noble character is her husband’s crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones.
Proverbs 19:13
A foolish child is a father’s ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is like the constant dripping of a leaky roof.
Proverbs 21:9
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Proverbs 21:19
Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife.

Regardless of law, there have always been contentious marriages, and a male writer in ancient Israel isn't going to write about having a quarrelsome husband, and is also very unlikely to blame himself for any family disagreements. Not to mention that the book of Proverbs is traditionally written by King Solomon who had a family of about 1000 wives and concubines from all different nations and cultures, so it would be no wonder he would write these sorts of things considering that trying to keep the peace among so many family members would be practically impossible, no matter who is supposed to submit to whom. Not to mention he was the King, so *everyone* in the entire nation was supposed to submit to him.

Also, the patriarchs of Israel lived under the laws of the old covenant made with Moses at Sinai and new Covenant Christians are not under those laws, but under grace. Paul was very much against new converts needing to become Jews under the yoke of law in order to be Christians. There is no good news there.

bèlla · Apr 9, 2019

No Username Found said:
I understand your point. And it is a very valid one I might add. Undoubtedly we live in a fallen world filled with fallen people. I see a similar situation when boys grow up with abusive fathers. As a result of their wounds, they have a very difficult time seeing God as their heavenly father who loves them.

Yes. Some are able to move beyond that place and others can't. They make adjustments and do their best.

I haven't encountered a strong adherence to biblical submission or headship among single Christian men. Most have an egalitarian perspective or dismiss the principle altogether. I've seen greater numbers in married circles.

What is the woman's role in the family and church?

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