You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

BCsenior said:

I feel sorry for you and several others
who are wasting their time.

Over the years, the FG has demonstrated that
he has no explanation for dozens of NT warnings,
except to say they refer to loss of rewards ...
whilst many of them obviously refer to eternal life!

So, why does anyone bother arguing with him?

It is because they do not understand evangelism.
E.G. Jesus said to present the Truth, and if they reject it,
shake the dust off your feet and go somewhere else.

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Not much time involved, none lost and if one doesn’t learn about the problems of wrong theology one cannot help those who think it.

My posts are pretty short and often they take less than a minute to write and seconds to put together.

FreeGrace2 said:

That would be your opinion.

Maybe you could explain Heb 10:14 to me, then.

" For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

Explain what the red words and blue words refer to.


I know Arminians have a real hard time letting go of their very carnal ideas about how the promise of eternal security can be taken. But you really need to let it go.

I've been clear about the very real and clear warnings in Scripture of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for rebellious children.

So why do you keep ignoring that?

If there are any OSAS believers who aren't aware of the real warning about God's painful discipline, they are just ignorant. No different than non-OSAS believers are about their notions of losing salvation.

What you seem to not grasp is that IF keeping salvation is based on HOW you live, then you yourself are your own "savior". And it won't work. You cannot save yourself.

What does it mean that Christ saves you? How does He save you if you can screw it up and lose it? Did He really save you at all? No, He didn't.

If anyone can lose salvation, because of any sin Christ died for, then Christ simply FAILED to do His job.


So, you see nothing about what "saved" means. But I gave you the 3 tenses.


This is reckless. I've never met any such person who would claim such a stupid thing.

If that's your opinion of OSAS believers, all you've done is demonstrate your extensive ignorance of their position.

You have no concept of what grace means, either. God owes no one anything. Got it? So quit misrepresenting OSAS believers. It only shows your ignorance of their position.


What you really need to do is confess your sin of unbelief about what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.


I agree. That's biblical. Your opinion about losing salvation isn't biblical. It's just opinionated emotions over sins that really offend you.


I don't make such stupid claims. Nor do other OSAS believers.


This is totally unbiblical. Haven't you ever read Romans?

11:1 - I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 - God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
11:26 - and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Please provide any verse that says that "God divorced Israel".

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Your post is too angry to address. You have too much emotion in the matter.

Dorothy Mae said:

Your post is too angry to address. You have too much emotion in the matter.

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Well, anyone can expand my post and read for themselves what I posted to you.

So, you "feel" that criticism is anger, huh? That pointing out errors is anger?

Maybe the charge of "too much emotion" is actually on the other end.

FreeGrace2 said:

Well, anyone can expand my post and read for themselves what I posted to you.

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They can. And the emotion is evident by the derisive words you choose to you. The above is also emotional.

So, you "feel" that criticism is anger, huh?

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Wrong. Your posts are angry because of the words you use that are against me as a person, not what I wrote.

That pointing out errors is anger?

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Not at all. But you use personally insulting words and not neutral words which is a sign of anger. I can point out examples.

Maybe the charge of "too much emotion" is actually on the other end.

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Not at all. Read this post. No insulting slurs like “ignorant” or “feel” as though my feelings aren’t real. Do you see it?

I said:
"Well, anyone can expand my post and read for themselves what I posted to you."

Dorothy Mae said:

They can. And the emotion is evident by the derisive words you choose to you. The above is also emotional.

Click to expand...

This only demonstrates just how emotional you are. There is NOTHING emotional in what I've posted. You are seeing things that aren't there.

Wrong. Your posts are angry because of the words you use that are against me as a person, not what I wrote.

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Everything I post in response to your posts are directed at your posts. Not at you. But since you see them as directed against you personally, shows that you are hypersensitive to any kind of criticism.

Not at all. But you use personally insulting words and not neutral words which is a sign of anger. I can point out examples.

Click to expand...

Please do. I need to know what insults you in order to not insult you.

Not at all. Read this post. No insulting slurs like “ignorant” or “feel” as though my feelings aren’t real. Do you see it?

Click to expand...

The key here is "as though...". That's your opinion. When I use the word "ignorant", I always explain what I mean. Such as "ignorant of Scripture". That's not personal, even if you think it is.

If a person demonstrates no knowledge of any subject, they ARE ignorant of that subject. Simple as that.

If criticism is difficult for you, maybe these kinds of forums aren't suited for you.

What I criticize is your views, not you. You need to understand that.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Well, anyone can expand my post and read for themselves what I posted to you."

This only demonstrates just how emotional you are. There is NOTHING emotional in what I've posted. You are seeing things that aren't there.

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Oh yes. The words you choose are very emotional. You probably do not see them but they are very emotional and reflect personal anger at me, not what I write.

Everything I post in response to your posts are directed at your posts. Not at you.

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NOpe. They are directed at my education or intelligence, which is me, not my posts.

But since you see them as directed against you personally, shows that you are hypersensitive to any kind of criticism.

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This is a good example of you writing posts that are directed at me as a person, not my posts. I did not have to wait 3 seconds for you to do it again. You do this frequently. You write insults at me personally. The above is an attack on my character, not my posts.

Please do. I need to know what insults you in order to not insult you.

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Do not tell people they are ignorant. Do not tell people they cannot take criticism because they do not like your personally insulting posts. Those are two that come to mind, one just happened. You need to write about what a person writes, not what they are.

The key here is "as though...". That's your opinion.

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You need to stop running to "that's your opionion" or "Im not interested in your opinion" as though what you write is not your opinion. Avoid that one. It is a put down that is equally applied to your posts.

When I use the word "ignorant", I always explain what I mean.

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Insulting and wrong. You certainly do not.

If a person demonstrates no knowledge of any subject, they ARE ignorant of that subject. Simple as that.

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That is an insulting judgment that is, frankly speaking, so far off as to be absurd. I bet I can quote to you out of memory more scripture than you are aware of. A good test would be for me to write a long piece quoting scripture without putting any of it in quote marks. I often do this to test people's knowledge of scripture. The best one was when I did this and the poster said they disagreed with my statment. It was a word for word quote I knew by heart and just quoted it with no comment. They did not know it was scripture, I bet.

Anyway, you should drop wrongfully judging who does not know the scripture when really you mean they do not agree with you. It is insulting and haughty. YOu think you know if others know scripture or not.

If criticism is difficult for you, maybe these kinds of forums aren't suited for you.

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Another put down. I am obviously intellectually miles above you and you probably don't like it. Lies are difficult for me and you tell them to cover up your inability to logically present your position and so substitute insults. OSASers do this very frequently. You are not the first.

What I criticize is your views, not you. You need to understand that.

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NOpe, you criticize me personally. You say I cannot take criticism. That is me personally. YOu say I do not scripture. That is me personally. You say I am ignorant. That is me personally. The list goes on and on. It comes from a positon of seeing yourself higher than others and is rather haughty.

But I might leave this discussion. YOu cannot write a single post without being personally insulting. There are other posters whose character does not allow them this sort of behaviour. I know you think you are saved no matter how you behave and that shows in your posts. Like I said, most OSASers post like you do believing they are going to heaven no matter how aweful they treat others.

Dorothy Mae said:

Oh yes. The words you choose are very emotional. You probably do not see them but they are very emotional and reflect personal anger at me, not what I write.NOpe. They are directed at my education or intelligence, which is me, not my posts.

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I'm sorry you feel that way, but your view of my posts is extremely judgmental and wrong. You have no idea what my emotions are when I post. In fact, I'm calm and enjoy the time I post and defend Scripture. But I know that I'll never convince you about anything.

I said:
"But since you see them as directed against you personally, shows that you are hypersensitive to any kind of criticism."

This is a good example of you writing posts that are directed at me as a person, not my posts. I did not have to wait 3 seconds for you to do it again. You do this frequently. You write insults at me personally. The above is an attack on my character, not my posts.

Click to expand...

You've just proved a point I made about your reaction to my posts.

Do not tell people they are ignorant.

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I never do. I always put it in context of a subject matter. And WHEN someone demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge of a subject, what would you call that? Being informed? Of course not.

Do not tell people they cannot take criticism because they do not like your personally insulting posts.

Click to expand...

Do you know what it means to be hypersensitive?

Those are two that come to mind, one just happened. You need to write about what a person writes, not what they are.

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That's what I do; I post about what others post.

You need to stop running to "that's your opionion" or "Im not interested in your opinion" as though what you write is not your opinion. Avoid that one.

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When a person makes a claim and fails to provide any Scripture that actually says what they claim, that is an opinion. If you provide verses that you think support your claim, then I would never claim your comments as an opinion. But I would point out IF the verses don't say what you think they say.

That is an insulting judgment that is, frankly speaking, so far off as to be absurd. I bet I can quote to you out of memory more scripture than you are aware of.

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And what do you "bet" your basis for this opinion? What evidence do you have to make this claim?

otoh, I suppose if I made that claim about you, you would react and claim I was being insulting.

A good test would be for me to write a long piece quoting scripture without putting any of it in quote marks. I often do this to test people's knowledge of scripture. The best one was when I did this and the poster said they disagreed with my statment. It was a word for word quote I knew by heart and just quoted it with no comment. They did not know it was scripture, I bet.

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Well, have you done that with me? Did I pass your test?

Anyway, you should drop wrongfully judging who does not know the scripture when really you mean they do not agree with you.

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Except the verses I post actually say what I claim.

It is insulting and haughty. YOu think you know if others know scripture or not.

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Another highly judgmental claim, without any evidence at all.

Another put down. I am obviously intellectually miles above you and you probably don't like it.

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More highly judgmental comments. You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of.

Lies are difficult for me and you tell them to cover up your inability to logically present your position and so substitute insults.

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So, here you throw out a claim that I am unable to logically present my position, yet, where is the evidence for that? Without any evidence, it is merely your own opinion.

NOpe, you criticize me personally. You say I cannot take criticism. That is me personally.

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I think you need to lighten up.

YOu say I do not scripture.

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I've never said you "do not scripture".

That is me personally. You say I am ignorant. That is me personally.

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If I had stopped at that word, then it would be insulting. But you have demonstrated over and over an unfamiliarity with Scripture, by what you post.

The list goes on and on. It comes from a positon of seeing yourself higher than others and is rather haughty.

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And, again, more highly judgmental claims. All without evidence. Just your opinion.

But I might leave this discussion.

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I already suggested that.

YOu cannot write a single post without being personally insulting.

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Or, maybe you cannot read a single post that challenges your unsubstantiated views without reacting in a hypersensitive way.

There are other posters whose character does not allow them this sort of behaviour. I know you think you are saved no matter how you behave and that shows in your posts.

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This is a good example of your unbiblical view that "how one lives" determines whether they are saved or not.

btw, Ms judgmental, when did I ever indicate that it doesn't matter how I behave? Haven't you read my posts about the dire consequences for rebellious believers? It's called "divine discipline" and according to Heb 12:11 it is PAINFUL. According to 1 Cor 11:30 it can include weakness, sickness and even physical death. Does that sound like a mere "hand slap"?

Or being turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh", per 1 Cor 5:5?

Like I said, most OSASers post like you do believing they are going to heaven no matter how aweful they treat others.

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When I discuss (or debate) Scripture and doctrines, I tend to be direct. Some may call that blunt. And I do understand that those who are more sensitive could take that as insulting or mean.

However, consider what Paul commanded Titus, regarding false doctrine.

Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

I have taken Paul's advice when I come up against false doctrine. And there is no doubt that the doctrine of loss of salvation is a false doctrine.

However, in deference to your sensitivities, I will no longer reply to your posts.

So you may have the last word.

BCsenior said:

Yes, he doesn't believe this passage
(on several different levels) ...

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Your statement is far from true. In fact, it's an untruth. What I noticed is that you cited 4 verses, but didn't include all of them in the quote. Instead, you covered for your coverup by not including the verse #s. Why was that?

“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness
is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT
love his brothers/sisters.” (1 John 3:7-10)

Click to expand...

So, let's look at ALL the verses:
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

So, you left out v.8,9. Why?

So, let's examine each verse.

v.7 is a warning about being led astray by false doctrine. And of course a righteous person will 'do what is right'.
v.8 links all sin (does what is sinful) to the devil. And the final sentence states the goal of Christ's First Advent; to destroy the penalty of sin.
v.9 appears to state that born again people do not sin any more. But other verses clearly indicate that we all continue to sin. The key is to understand what being "born again" includes and really means. John noted "God's seed" remaining in the born again person. This is the Holy Spirit. The phrase 'born of God' occurs twice. So we have to take this phrase literally. So, what has been "born again", specifically? The only thing that makes sense is what "died that day" in the garden when Adam ate the forbidden fruit; the human spirit. Jesus told the woman at the well one must worship God in spirit and in truth. I believe Jesus was telling the woman she needed her dead human spirit to be reborn in order to worship God. When a person believes in Christ, they are said to be born again. I believe it is the human spirit that is regenerated, and I believe that is where the Holy Spirit resides in us. It makes no sense for the Spirit to reside in our flesh, which is corrupt.

So, v.9 teaches that when the believer functions from the human spirit, rather than their "flesh", where the human nature is, they can't sin. Remember that ch 1 is all about fellowship with the Lord and other believers. So, believers who don't want to sin must be in fellowship with the Lord, through confession of sin (1 Jn 1:9), and be filled with the Spirit (Eph 518) which means to "walk by the Spirit" in Gal 5:16a. Those who do "will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" per Gal 5:16b.

Believers who don't confess their sins, aren't cleansed (purified), and are grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). These believers, though born again, are functioning from their human nature, in opposition to the Spirit. They cannot avoid sin.

v.10 has been wrongly translated. Rather than "not a child of God", the Greek does NOT include the word for "child". So, it should read, "not of God".

When children of royalty aren't acting like it, their behavior is "not of their parents".

So the passage doesn't say a born again believer changes spiritual DNA from a child of God to a child of the devil. But Arminians generally think that's what it says.

The following BACs actually are children of Satan, and who obviously are not on their way to heaven:
-- BACs who do not practice righteousness
-- BACs who do not love their fellow believers
These BACs have fallen from grace, and
unless they sincerely repent, they are forever lost.

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No, they actually aren't children of Satan, on their way to hell.

Eph 1:13,14 refutes any notion of any who "have believed" ever going to hell.
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words speak of HOW a person is placed in union with Christ; when they believe.
The blue words describe the Holy Spirit as a mark or seal, who is a deposit.
The green words explain what the indwelling Spirit or deposit does: GUARANTEES our inheritance.
The purpose words explain the time frame for this GUARANTEE; until the redemption of God's possession (His children).

You are free to address each color coded point to show me how I'm wrong.

FreeGrace2 said:

I'm sorry you feel that way, but your view of my posts is extremely judgmental and wrong. You have no idea what my emotions are when I post. In fact, I'm calm and enjoy the time I post and defend Scripture. But I know that I'll never convince you about anything.

I said:
"But since you see them as directed against you personally, shows that you are hypersensitive to any kind of criticism."

You've just proved a point I made about your reaction to my posts.


I never do. I always put it in context of a subject matter. And WHEN someone demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge of a subject, what would you call that? Being informed? Of course not.


Do you know what it means to be hypersensitive?


That's what I do; I post about what others post.


When a person makes a claim and fails to provide any Scripture that actually says what they claim, that is an opinion. If you provide verses that you think support your claim, then I would never claim your comments as an opinion. But I would point out IF the verses don't say what you think they say.


And what do you "bet" your basis for this opinion? What evidence do you have to make this claim?

otoh, I suppose if I made that claim about you, you would react and claim I was being insulting.


Well, have you done that with me? Did I pass your test?


Except the verses I post actually say what I claim.


Another highly judgmental claim, without any evidence at all.


More highly judgmental comments. You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of.


So, here you throw out a claim that I am unable to logically present my position, yet, where is the evidence for that? Without any evidence, it is merely your own opinion.


I think you need to lighten up.


I've never said you "do not scripture".


If I had stopped at that word, then it would be insulting. But you have demonstrated over and over an unfamiliarity with Scripture, by what you post.


And, again, more highly judgmental claims. All without evidence. Just your opinion.


I already suggested that.


Or, maybe you cannot read a single post that challenges your unsubstantiated views without reacting in a hypersensitive way.


This is a good example of your unbiblical view that "how one lives" determines whether they are saved or not.

btw, Ms judgmental, when did I ever indicate that it doesn't matter how I behave? Haven't you read my posts about the dire consequences for rebellious believers? It's called "divine discipline" and according to Heb 12:11 it is PAINFUL. According to 1 Cor 11:30 it can include weakness, sickness and even physical death. Does that sound like a mere "hand slap"?

Or being turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh", per 1 Cor 5:5?


When I discuss (or debate) Scripture and doctrines, I tend to be direct. Some may call that blunt. And I do understand that those who are more sensitive could take that as insulting or mean.

However, consider what Paul commanded Titus, regarding false doctrine.

Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

I have taken Paul's advice when I come up against false doctrine. And there is no doubt that the doctrine of loss of salvation is a false doctrine.

However, in deference to your sensitivities, I will no longer reply to your posts.

So you may have the last word.

Click to expand...

The blindness is astounding.

BCsenior said:

Yes, he doesn't believe this passage
(on several different levels) ...

“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness
is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT
love his brothers/sisters.” (1 John 3:7-10)

The following BACs actually are children of Satan,
and who obviously are not on their way to heaven:
-- BACs who do not practice righteousness
-- BACs who do not love their fellow believers
These BACs have fallen from grace, and
unless they sincerely repent, they are forever lost.

Click to expand...

They got their BAC ticket, the pastor says so, and now they are free to behave as they wished. I asked one once if he/she was required to love God. They said they were not. Salvation is all about them avoiding hell, that was pretty much it. Obedience, loving God and man are just optional extras if you want some rewards. Not a one of them can tell me what those rewards are so they have zero motivation to sacrifice pleasure/rewards here for some in the sweet by and by.

I actual have a pretty good idea what some of those rewards are.

BCsenior said:

Sister Dorothy Mae ...
Have you had enough yet?

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Depends. Enough of what?

Dorothy Mae said:

Depends. Enough of what?

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Cake?

Gracia Singh said:

Cake?

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Can I have it and eat it too?

Dorothy Mae said:

Can I have it and eat it too?

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You may. There's always enough theology cake to go around!

Gracia Singh said:

You may. There's always enough theology cake to go around!

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That is one awesome cake!!!

Dorothy Mae said:

That is one awesome cake!!!

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Someone literally made a "Greek Orthodoxy" cake.

You guys are funny...

God Bless!

Nevermind. No point in beating a dead horse.