LDS Celestial Marriage...100% false.

mmksparbud · Apr 8, 2019

He is the way said:
The Soul's Remembrance
Pre-Birth Experiences
Where Was Your Spirit Before You Were Born?

Basically, you are saying that these spirit beings are all their own little Jesus--Come down here, save yourself, and go back. Why bother with Jesus at all. But then, when the primary goal is to be a God, then you start becoming one right from the start. The thing is, God never needed to be saved, He is the Savior. It is incredibly difficult to retain any sense of politeness when facing the things your prophets teach.
Adam became a living soul when God breathed into him. Doesn't say a thing about bringing in somebodies soul from the atmosphere into him---it is the breath of life from God that gave him life.He did not choose to becpome a pile of dust. You know what---this whole thing ks nothing short of possession. Your version is not that demons posses us, but these spirit children do. We are not us, we are spirit children who posses a biological creation of 2 other spirit possessed bodies----ye gads---how messed-up can you get?? You do know that cocaine and opium were very prevalent back then don't you?

dzheremi · Apr 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
You know what---this whole thing ks nothing short of possession. Your version is not that demons posses us, but these spirit children do. We are not us, we are spirit children who posses a biological creation of 2 other spirit possessed bodies----ye gads---how messed-up can you get?? You do know that cocaine and opium were very prevalent back then don't you?

It's another parallel with Scientology (I swear, L. Ron Hubbard must've read the BOM or other Mormon documents as a kind of road map to creating his own cult), this "possession by spirits" type of stuff:

One religion says "spirit children", the other says "thetans", I say phooey either way!

Also, it's rather like gnostic dualism, isn't it? You're not you -- a true union of body and soul in an individual, truly-existing, flesh and blood person -- you're a "spirit child" in your chosen meat-casing!

You're right: it's very hard to remain civil in the face of this stuff. I don't want to curse, so...Ay carrumba! This is some truly wacky stuff.

He is the way · Apr 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
No one that goes into the 2nd death goes on to have a change of heart. They are devoured by the fire of God. Nothing in the bible says anyone ever gets a change to change their minds after death---first or 2nd. Jesus comes only for the saved. The lost are reserved for their judgement after the 1000 years.

(New Testament | Luke 4:18)

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 19)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

He is the way · Apr 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Basically, you are saying that these spirit beings are all their own little Jesus--Come down here, save yourself, and go back. Why bother with Jesus at all. But then, when the primary goal is to be a God, then you start becoming one right from the start. The thing is, God never needed to be saved, He is the Savior. It is incredibly difficult to retain any sense of politeness when facing the things your prophets teach.
Adam became a living soul when God breathed into him. Doesn't say a thing about bringing in somebodies soul from the atmosphere into him---it is the breath of life from God that gave him life.He did not choose to becpome a pile of dust. You know what---this whole thing ks nothing short of possession. Your version is not that demons posses us, but these spirit children do. We are not us, we are spirit children who posses a biological creation of 2 other spirit possessed bodies----ye gads---how messed-up can you get?? You do know that cocaine and opium were very prevalent back then don't you?

Yes God did put Adam's spirit into the body that God created for Adam. Sometimes other spirits enter into bodies and Jesus cast them out:
(New Testament | Mark 1:23 - 27)

23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

He is the way · Apr 8, 2019

dzheremi said:
It's another parallel with Scientology (I swear, L. Ron Hubbard must've read the BOM or other Mormon documents as a kind of road map to creating his own cult), this "possession by spirits" type of stuff:

One religion says "spirit children", the other says "thetans", I say phooey either way!

Also, it's rather like gnostic dualism, isn't it? You're not you -- a true union of body and soul in an individual, truly-existing, flesh and blood person -- you're a "spirit child" in your chosen meat-casing!

You're right: it's very hard to remain civil in the face of this stuff. I don't want to curse, so...Ay carrumba! This is some truly wacky stuff.

However God is the Father of spirits:
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

He is the way · Apr 8, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Quoting only Bible verses doesn't explain Mormonism nor defend it. Mormons have to earn salvation and grace must even be earned, thus causing it to be non-grace.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

No Grace:

D&C 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

D&C 132
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world...

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
______________________________________________________

After being saved from the power of Satan, Christians obey God because He made us new creatures and we love Him.

There is no such thing as salvation without grace and there is no such thing as faith without works.

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

(New Testament | Hebrews 11:6)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The scriptures you quoted from the D&C are all true and here are a few of the scriptures that echo the same sediments:

(New Testament | Romans 1:5 - 6)

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | Romans 5:19)

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(New Testament | Romans 6:16)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(New Testament | Romans 16:26)

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Peter1000 · Apr 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
This chart is too long to post here---would take several pages! And they missed a few! Side by side comparison. Someone was working on a side by side with the Apocrypha. Certainly not more than 1/2? If it's "another testament of Jesus" why would there be any? His "contribution" to this book is actually not very much.

Nephi and his brothers were sent to Jerusalem to retrieve a book called the "brass plates". The brass plates was a copy of the OT pretty much up to that time, including the writings of Isaiah. He was so impressed with Isaiah that he wanted his family to know about what he said. So he and his father Lehi taught them about Isaiah and other OT prophets.

Then when it came time to write his book for his posterity and for future people, he wanted to include in his writings, some of the most important words from Isaiah. So he did. When it came time to translate these words of Isaiah, it is not impossible that the Lord told JS to simply take the verses that Nephi wanted to be in the book from Isaiah and copy them straight out of the OT. That would save a lot of translation time. It makes sense to me, even if it meant he copied mistakes too. There are small differences though in BOM Isaiah and the KJV Isaiah.

That is how Nephi's family and his posterity came to know Isaiah, which was to their benefit. Right?
I am not sure what % of the BOM is from the book of Isaiah, and I'm not sure that matters, but now you know why part of the book of Isaiah is in the BOM.

Again your knowledge of what the U&T can and cannot do is all speculation. It also looks like you are describing the breastplate that the High Priest wore, which the U&T was attached to, but was not the U&T. So stop with the authoritative language that we know so much, you don't.

I did not imply anything--it is clear by what BY said. Where in the bible does it say that JS is going to judge anyone? Where does it say anyone but Jesus will judge?

It says it right here:
Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So here Jesus is telling the 12 apostles they will not only judge the 12 tribes of Israel (billions of people) but they will judge them sitting on glittering thrones. How bout that.
The implication is: If the apostles can help Jesus Judge, maybe Abraham and Adam etc. will help too. And if JS turns out to be the prophet of the last dispensation, as I declare, he too will have the opportunity to help Jesus judge too.

mmksparbud · Apr 8, 2019

He is the way said:
Yes God did put Adam's spirit into the body that God created for Adam. Sometimes other spirits enter into bodies and Jesus cast them out:
(New Testament | Mark 1:23 - 27)

23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

God breathed life into Adam not an unfallen angel into him.
There is no such thing as unfallen angels possessing a human body---only evil angels.

mmksparbud · Apr 8, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Nephi and his brothers were sent to Jerusalem to retrieve a book called the "brass plates". The brass plates was a copy of the OT pretty much up to that time, including the writings of Isaiah. He was so impressed with Isaiah that he wanted his family to know about what he said. So he and his father Lehi taught them about Isaiah and other OT prophets.

Then when it came time to write his book for his posterity and for future people, he wanted to include in his writings, some of the most important words from Isaiah. So he did. When it came time to translate these words of Isaiah, it is not impossible that the Lord told JS to simply take the verses that Nephi wanted to be in the book from Isaiah and copy them straight out of the OT. That would save a lot of translation time. It makes sense to me, even if it meant he copied mistakes too. There are small differences though in BOM Isaiah and the KJV Isaiah.

That is how Nephi's family and his posterity came to know Isaiah, which was to their benefit. Right?
I am not sure what % of the BOM is from the book of Isaiah, and I'm not sure that matters, but now you know why part of the book of Isaiah is in the BOM.

Again your knowledge of what the U&T can and cannot do is all speculation. It also looks like you are describing the breastplate that the High Priest wore, which the U&T was attached to, but was not the U&T. So stop with the authoritative language that we know so much, you don't.

It says it right here:
Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So here Jesus is telling the 12 apostles they will not only judge the 12 tribes of Israel (billions of people) but they will judge them sitting on glittering thrones. How bout that.
The implication is: If the apostles can help Jesus Judge, maybe Abraham and Adam etc. will help too. And if JS turns out to be the prophet of the last dispensation, as I declare, he too will have the opportunity to help Jesus judge too.

The 12 apostles will have their reward and preside over the nations---this is the saved. They have already been judged by Jesus as saved when He comes for them. That there is some sort of order in the new earth is evident. God is not the author of confusion and even in heaven there is order to everything. Job accounts a sort of heavenly council when Satan came representing earth as he is the prince of this world. He lost that title at the cross. This has nothing to do with JS judging anyone. Jesus as our High Priest is now in the heavenly sanctuary using His blood to cover those that are His. When He comes the decision as to who is saved has already been made, He comes only for the saved.
As a blasphemous false prophet, JS will have his place alright.

mmksparbud · Apr 8, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Again your knowledge of what the U&T can and cannot do is all speculation. It also looks like you are describing the breastplate that the High Priest wore, which the U&T was attached to, but was not the U&T. So stop with the authoritative language that we know so much, you don't.

No--I was describing the U+T--

mmksparbud said:
Nobody does know everything there is to know about the U+T, however, the fact that they were engraved with the names of the 12 tribes is known, 6 on each stone, and that they would glow -- one for yes, the other for no. No one would be able to read anything through the stones, they were not clear, and the names of the tribes would be in the way.

Exo 28:9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
Exo 28:10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
Exo 28:11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
Exo 28:12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

Exo 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.

The breastplate contained 12 stones--each of the stones had the name of one of the tribes.
Exo 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.

He is the way · Apr 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
God breathed life into Adam not an unfallen angel into him.
There is no such thing as unfallen angels possessing a human body---only evil angels.

Our spirit returns to God when we die:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

mmksparbud · Apr 8, 2019

He is the way said:
Our spirit returns to God when we die:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That's breath.
Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

It is the same breath of life that God gave to all living creatures. Or do you guys also believe that those spirit beings also possess all living creatures? I don't think there is any good reason to choose to be an elephant dung beetle.

He is the way · Apr 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
That's breath.
Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

It is the same breath of life that God gave to all living creatures. Or do you guys also believe that those spirit beings also possess all living creatures? I don't think there is any good reason to choose to be an elephant dung beetle.

So if it is breath, why does the Bible say spirit? Why would breath return to God? How does a breath speak?:
(New Testament | Mark 1:23 - 26)

23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Rescued One · Apr 8, 2019

He is the way said:
Why would anybody chose to be spit on and nailed to a cross? Jesus chose His trials for a reason and I believe we did also.

Why would God chose to save us? He said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

For us, nothing less would prove His love for us. What is the reason that God chose to do this? Not to earn godhood!

We weren't so magnanimous as to choose trials. God chose to teach us through them. I had such a hard time with the Mormon self-love and self-righteousness. It was horrible. And then to be expected to love an exalted man-Father? What kind of lowly god is that?

What kind of people keep written records of all the apostates to turn over to their god when they supposedly meet him?

Rescued One · Apr 8, 2019

Why do Mormons need written records of all ordinances that have been performed? Is God unaware or forgetful?

Rescued One · Apr 8, 2019

He is the way said:
There is no such thing as salvation without grace and there is no such thing as faith without works.

There is no grace earned by works.

Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

He is the way said:
(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So now you're saying that those Mormons who aren't working their ____ off have no faith.

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Hebrews 11:6)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The scriptures you quoted from the D&C are all true and here are a few of the scriptures that echo the same sediments[sic]:

(New Testament | Romans 5:19)

19 For as by one [Adam]man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of [Jesus]one shall many be made righteous.

By Christ's obedience many shall be made righteous!

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Romans 6:16)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we love Him, we obey Him!!!!!! We can share the word with you, but you'll come right back and say, "Latter-day Saints have the true interpretation."

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Romans 16:26)

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

"Focusing on Hebrews 5:8—an inseparable part of one sentence running for three verses—we have an extremely condensed version of Jesus’ life on earth. He was the infinite Son of God who nevertheless experienced the limits of space and time and life as we do. God could have created a fully grown adult body for Jesus as He did for Adam and rushed Him to the cross, but He didn’t. Instead, Jesus left heaven, entered time (Philippians 2:5–8), and experienced for Himself ordinary human life from birth to adulthood to death. Learning and suffering and death are part of the life experience for all people, and God ensured that His own Son would be no exception. As God, Jesus did not need to learn anything, especially obedience; yet, at His incarnation, Jesus limited Himself to the human experience. He chose the weak position of having to learn and grow (Luke 2:52).

"Jesus 'learned obedience' not in the sense that He was prone to disobedience and had to bring rebelliousness under control, but in the sense that He fully entered the human experience. As a child, He obeyed His parents (Luke 2:51); as an adult, He obeyed the Law (Matthew 5:17) and fulfilled all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). All His life, Jesus completely fulfilled the Father’s will (John 8:29; 15:10; Hebrews 10:9). He knew what obedience was prior to His incarnation, of course, but He 'learned' obedience on earth by experiencing it. In every situation, no matter how difficult, the Son was obedient to the Father: 'The Sovereign Lord has opened my ears; I have not been rebellious, I have not turned away. I offered my back to those who beat me' (Isaiah 50:5–6).

"Jesus learned obedience 'from what He suffered.' As the divine Son of God, Jesus did not have to suffer, but as the Son of Man, suffering was required to learn obedience. The Greek word used in Hebrews 5:8 for 'suffered' usually refers to enduring unpleasant experiences like disease (Mark 5:26) or persecution (Acts 8:1). But it often also implies enduring a challenging process that transforms the sufferer (Romans 5:3; 2 Corinthians 1:3–9). That is the sense in which the word is used in Hebrews 5:8 (see also Hebrews 2:10). Jesus chose to endure an unpleasant, challenging process because it was the will of His Father for His brief time on earth. After that process Jesus had been “made perfect.” It is crucial to note that perfect here means 'complete,' as in finishing a full course of training or education—or, in Jesus’ case, He finished an altogether righteous human life and had a complete understanding of human frailty and suffering. It was Christ’s total human obedience, coming through extreme suffering, that qualifies Him to be our eternal High Priest, 'now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death' (Hebrews 2:9).

"Having been “perfected,” not morally but in relation to His ministry as our Savior, Jesus is qualified to be “the source [or author] of eternal salvation for all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9)."
What does it mean that Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8)?

He gives us the desire and ability to obey because He is in us!

dzheremi · Apr 9, 2019

He is the way said:
There is no such thing as salvation without grace and there is no such thing as faith without works.

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is essentially the ancient equivalent of "Thoughts and prayers don't keep the lights on." It's not saying that you need to do a bunch of works in order to 'earn' grace or salvation or whatever, as such a thing is not possible to begin with (or else things like the verses Phoebe cited from Romans 11 wouldn't be in the Bible as well), but instead that if a person comes to you saying "I'm hungry, can you help me?" and instead of actually helping even though you can you say "No, but I will pray that you are warmed and filled", then you're not actually living out your faith like you probably think you are on account of having said a bunch of 'religious' stuff.

The Bible is quite clear on the relationship of faith and works, and it's not an either/or situation (i.e., they're not 'opposing sides'), but that there are plenty of people who will argue as Mormonism does that we are saved after all that we can do, so Christians have to keep reminding others and each other that, no, that is an unhealthily unbalanced view of 'works'/our role in our own salvation, which our own egos would like to make much larger than it could ever possibly be. It's essentially a kind of semi-Pelagianism, which is very attractive to many believers and the world more generally, because it says "Hey! You're a capable guy/gal; you got this!", even when the entire narrative of our religion -- the incarnation of our Lord, God, and Savior; His life, teaching, crucifixion, death, and resurrection, and the defeat of death through it, offering us salvation from the bonds of sin, and eternal life -- says "No, you haven't got this -- Christ has got this, and so we must all have Him!"

I don't doubt that a Mormon or Mormonism more generally would claim to agree with that sentiment, but just like the situation which James warns us about in the passage you quoted, a person can have a misapprehension of their own religion by misunderstanding how they ought to be living. This is why it is so fatal to Mormonism's claims of following Christ when it puts out as positive commands or axioms that we are saved "after all that we can do" -- it's not saying, as James says, that some people may mistakenly think this and need to be reminded that this is not actually the way things are, but rather that, yes, this is how things are! That our salvation is firstly a matter of what we can do for ourselves.

And that is so totally wrong, so completely contradictory of the message of the Bible, that I have a really hard time imagining that anyone could think St. James or any of the Church would've had that message in mind when writing the writings that would eventually make up the New Testament canon.

He is the way · Apr 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Why do Mormons need written records of all ordinances that have been performed? Is God unaware or forgetful?

Book of life:

(New Testament | Revelation 3:5)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He is the way · Apr 9, 2019

dzheremi said:
This is essentially the ancient equivalent of "Thoughts and prayers don't keep the lights on." It's not saying that you need to do a bunch of works in order to 'earn' grace or salvation or whatever, as such a thing is not possible to begin with (or else things like the verses Phoebe cited from Romans 11 wouldn't be in the Bible as well), but instead that if a person comes to you saying "I'm hungry, can you help me?" and instead of actually helping even though you can you say "No, but I will pray that you are warmed and filled", then you're not actually living out your faith like you probably think you are on account of having said a bunch of 'religious' stuff.

The Bible is quite clear on the relationship of faith and works, and it's not an either/or situation (i.e., they're not 'opposing sides'), but that there are plenty of people who will argue as Mormonism does that we are saved after all that we can do, so Christians have to keep reminding others and each other that, no, that is an unhealthily unbalanced view of 'works'/our role in our own salvation, which our own egos would like to make much larger than it could ever possibly be. It's essentially a kind of semi-Pelagianism, which is very attractive to many believers and the world more generally, because it says "Hey! You're a capable guy/gal; you got this!", even when the entire narrative of our religion -- the incarnation of our Lord, God, and Savior; His life, teaching, crucifixion, death, and resurrection, and the defeat of death through it, offering us salvation from the bonds of sin, and eternal life -- says "No, you haven't got this -- Christ has got this, and so we must all have Him!"

I don't doubt that a Mormon or Mormonism more generally would claim to agree with that sentiment, but just like the situation which James warns us about in the passage you quoted, a person can have a misapprehension of their own religion by misunderstanding how they ought to be living. This is why it is so fatal to Mormonism's claims of following Christ when it puts out as positive commands or axioms that we are saved "after all that we can do" -- it's not saying, as James says, that some people may mistakenly think this and need to be reminded that this is not actually the way things are, but rather that, yes, this is how things are! That our salvation is firstly a matter of what we can do for ourselves.

And that is so totally wrong, so completely contradictory of the message of the Bible, that I have a really hard time imagining that anyone could think St. James or any of the Church would've had that message in mind when writing the writings that would eventually make up the New Testament canon.

It is impossible to know God if we don't follow His advice:
(New Testament | 1 John 2:4)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

He is the way · Apr 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
There is no grace earned by works.

Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So now you're saying that those Mormons who aren't working their ____ off have no faith.

By Christ's obedience many shall be made righteous!

If we love Him, we obey Him!!!!!! We can share the word with you, but you'll come right back and say, "Latter-day Saints have the true interpretation."

"Focusing on Hebrews 5:8—an inseparable part of one sentence running for three verses—we have an extremely condensed version of Jesus’ life on earth. He was the infinite Son of God who nevertheless experienced the limits of space and time and life as we do. God could have created a fully grown adult body for Jesus as He did for Adam and rushed Him to the cross, but He didn’t. Instead, Jesus left heaven, entered time (Philippians 2:5–8), and experienced for Himself ordinary human life from birth to adulthood to death. Learning and suffering and death are part of the life experience for all people, and God ensured that His own Son would be no exception. As God, Jesus did not need to learn anything, especially obedience; yet, at His incarnation, Jesus limited Himself to the human experience. He chose the weak position of having to learn and grow (Luke 2:52).

"Jesus 'learned obedience' not in the sense that He was prone to disobedience and had to bring rebelliousness under control, but in the sense that He fully entered the human experience. As a child, He obeyed His parents (Luke 2:51); as an adult, He obeyed the Law (Matthew 5:17) and fulfilled all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). All His life, Jesus completely fulfilled the Father’s will (John 8:29; 15:10; Hebrews 10:9). He knew what obedience was prior to His incarnation, of course, but He 'learned' obedience on earth by experiencing it. In every situation, no matter how difficult, the Son was obedient to the Father: 'The Sovereign Lord has opened my ears; I have not been rebellious, I have not turned away. I offered my back to those who beat me' (Isaiah 50:5–6).

"Jesus learned obedience 'from what He suffered.' As the divine Son of God, Jesus did not have to suffer, but as the Son of Man, suffering was required to learn obedience. The Greek word used in Hebrews 5:8 for 'suffered' usually refers to enduring unpleasant experiences like disease (Mark 5:26) or persecution (Acts 8:1). But it often also implies enduring a challenging process that transforms the sufferer (Romans 5:3; 2 Corinthians 1:3–9). That is the sense in which the word is used in Hebrews 5:8 (see also Hebrews 2:10). Jesus chose to endure an unpleasant, challenging process because it was the will of His Father for His brief time on earth. After that process Jesus had been “made perfect.” It is crucial to note that perfect here means 'complete,' as in finishing a full course of training or education—or, in Jesus’ case, He finished an altogether righteous human life and had a complete understanding of human frailty and suffering. It was Christ’s total human obedience, coming through extreme suffering, that qualifies Him to be our eternal High Priest, 'now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death' (Hebrews 2:9).

"Having been “perfected,” not morally but in relation to His ministry as our Savior, Jesus is qualified to be “the source [or author] of eternal salvation for all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9)."
What does it mean that Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8)?

He gives us the desire and ability to obey because He is in us!
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Grace will be given to those who love Jesus Christ and keep the commandments, who do the will of the Father, who clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, visit and minister to the sick and those in prison, took in the stranger etc. The man who asked Jesus who his neighbor was, was told to go and DO likewise as the good Samaritan did. The whole duty of man is to fear God and keep His commandments.

LDS Celestial Marriage...100% false.

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Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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