Traditions of men (continued from TAW)

Root of Jesse said:

I've done that already, but I guess you weren't paying attention. traditions are practices, such as priestly garments, the hymns we sing, the commentaries in the Bible. Sacred Tradition is the context by which we interpret Sacred Scripture.

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No, it is not.

I am sorry that it was necessary to insist that you explain your theory, but now that we have it, we can see the error.

Sacred Tradition, so called, is NOT "the context by which we interpret Sacred Scripture."

You are referring there to ordinary tradition, meaning the historical record, precedent, etc., i.e. something that assists us in interpreting or comprehending the meaning of Scripture. But, in that case, it still is Scripture that is our authority.

"Sacred Tradition," however, refers to an alleged second source of divine revelation that is equal to the Bible and dealing with information that is not found in the Bible.

Doctrines (such as the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven) which have been created by reference to "Sacred Tradition" (actually, legend), have no basis in Scripture. They are independent of the testimony of Scripture.[/QUOTE]

Albion said:

second source of divine revelation

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Root of Jesse said:

So you say, but I don't have you as an authority

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I can see why.

Root of Jesse said:

So you say, but I don't have you as an authority.

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So the Roman Catholic Church says.

Logically speaking, anyone who represents himself as a loyal member and advocate or spokesman for the church ought to want to know what she teaches--and not just approximately so. .

Root of Jesse said:

Especially for @Tone

You quoted Romans "For who has known the mind of God...", and I will answer you. Jesus knew the mind of God, knew that He wanted Jesus to start A (one) Church. Jesus did so, and even before He did so, people began fragmenting away (read John 6). We believe our bishops are the successors of the apostles, therefore, the Church has the mind of God.

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Men often still make the word of God of no effect by man made traditions that fight against God’s order and leading.

For example in scripture we never see such things as

1. Church buildings. That is because the believers are the church who gathered in homes and had ministry and fellowship with each other in Christ as they were led and as they allowed Christ the head to work in every part (Ephesisabs 4;11-16, 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,12, Romans 12:1-8, Col 3:15,16, 1 Thess 5:11, etc)

2. No one man pastor or (Bishop) ministry over others in an exalted role. That is because every part of the body can function and minister as they are led by God when gathered. And God gave more gifts than pastors. He gave some apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. Not just pastors. Yet somehow Christendom has been dominated by these men and mans traditions that created an unbiblical “clergy and Laity” division in the body. Make elders , (plural) are yo be in every church. We should not have one man dominate or it’d over others in a supreme authority as Paul said “ 2 Corinthians 1:24. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.”.

3. No “programs” that are run by the time clock in spirit quenching forms. That is because on these man made “programs” the rest of the body is not in this program neither I fear is Christ many times. These programs often quench the spirit and bind up the body not allowing body ministry in Christ.

4. No paid ministers. This is a man made tradition also. The elders should work with thier own hands as Paul said in Acts 20:33-35. Yes, itinerant preachers who travel from one place to another can receive benefit from the body for the work. But even in this Paul did not like to take from others he often worked.

5. No song leaders. This tradition of men hinders the body ministry again as we read all can have a song a hymn a spiritual song Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Cor 14:26, etc. And Christ is the one in the midst singing praise to God and by him let us offer the sacrifice of praise.

6. The man made tradition of sitting in pews we’re everyone faces forward and looks at the back of each others heads to the exalted man on the thing called the altar, or stage. This is again a tradition of man that treats the gatherings like a lecture and fights against body ministry and exalts the man elevated on the platform. Scripture shows that they met in homes for ministry and function in the church. A home is a family environment and all face each other and can minister to each other and have a meal and fellowship. This is not possible in the man made religious buildings and the way the entire firm is structured.

7. Another man made tradtion is women overseers or bishops over all who teach. This is wrong in a few areas. First there should not be one person exalted in oversight but a plurality of male elders who feed, and watch over, not who dominate and lord over. Secondly, we read that a bishop must be the husband of one wife and rule well his own house. And a woman should not teach over or usurp authority over the man.

8.Another man made tradition is to take tax exemptions and have to be regulated by the government. This is not right for the body must be free to give money to the poor and not have the world regulate us. To draw strength from the shadow of Egypt and a covering from them instead of from God is a shame. “ Isaiah 30:1. Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:2. That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!3. Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.”

9. The Lords supper as a snack with a small cracker and juice or wine cup. In scripture the supper was a full meal a love feast in homes with the bread and cup.

There are many more but this is a good start.

Basically almost everything we do as believers today when gathered in these religious forms and traditions is unbiblical and affects the order of God and hinders the body.

LoveofTruth said:

Men often still make the word of God of no effect by man made traditions that fight against God’s order and leading.

For example in scripture we never see such things as

1. Church buildings. That is because the believers are the church who gathered in homes and had ministry and fellowship with each other in Christ as they were led and as they allowed Christ the head to work in every part (Ephesisabs 4;11-16, 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,12, Romans 12:1-8, Col 3:15,16, 1 Thess 5:11, etc)

2. No one man pastor or (Bishop) ministry over others in an exalted role. That is because every part of the body can function and minister as they are led by God when gathered. And God gave more gifts than pastors. He gave some apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. Not just pastors. Yet somehow Christendom has been dominated by these men and mans traditions that created an unbiblical “clergy and Laity” division in the body. Make elders , (plural) are yo be in every church. We should not have one man dominate or it’d over others in a supreme authority as Paul said “ 2 Corinthians 1:24. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.”.

3. No “programs” that are run by the time clock in spirit quenching forms. That is because on these man made “programs” the rest of the body is not in this program neither I fear is Christ many times. These programs often quench the spirit and bind up the body not allowing body ministry in Christ.

4. No paid ministers. This is a man madectradition also. The elders should work with thier own hands as Paul said in Acts 20:33-35. Yes, itinerant preachers who travel from one place to another can receive benefit from the body for the work. But even in this Paul did not like to take from others he often worked.

5. No song leaders. This tradition of men hinders the body ministry again as we read all can have a song a hymn a spiritual song Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Cor 14:26, etc. And Christ is the one in the midst singing praise to God and by him let us offer the sacrifice of praise.

6. The man made tradition of sitting in pews we’re everyone faces forward and looks at the back of each others heads to the exalted man on the thing called the altar, or stage. This is again a tradition of man that treats the gatherings like a lecture and fights against body ministry and exalts the man elevated on the platform. Scripture shows that they met in homes for ministry and function in the church. A home is a family environment and all face each other and can minister to each other and have a meal and fellowship. This is not possible in the man made religious buildings and the way the entire firm is structured.

7. Another man made tradtion is women overseers or bishops over all who teach. This is wrong in a few areas. First there should not be one person exalted in oversight but a plurality if male elders who feed, and watch over, not who dominate and lord over. Secondly wecread that a bishop must be the husband of one wife and rule well his own house. And a woman should not teach over or usurp authority over the man.

8.Another man made tradition is to take tax exemptions and have to be regulated by the government. This is not right for the body must be free to give money to the poor and not have the world regulate us. To draw strength from the shadow of Egypt and a covering from them instead of from God is a shame. “ Isaiah 30:1. Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:2. That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!3. Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.”

9. The Lords supper as a snack. In scripture the supper was a full meal a love feast in homes.

There are many more but this is a good start.

Basically almost everything we do as believers today when gathered in these religious forms and traditions is unbiblical and affects the order of God and hinders the body.

Click to expand...

Yeah, Luther was short a few theses. People go wrong when they view the Reformation as some distant point on a timeline instead of an ongoing Self-regulation of the Body...a spiritual homeostasis. Another thing, is that I believe the elders of the Assemblies were usually, literally, the elders...older folk. I think Timothy was an exception to the rule.

LoveofTruth said:

Men often still make the word of God of no effect by man made traditions that fight against God’s order and leading.

For example in scripture we never see such things as

1. Church buildings. That is because the believers are the church who gathered in homes and had ministry and fellowship with each other in Christ as they were led and as they allowed Christ the head to work in every part (Ephesisabs 4;11-16, 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,12, Romans 12:1-8, Col 3:15,16, 1 Thess 5:11, etc)

2. No one man pastor or (Bishop) ministry over others in an exalted role. That is because every part of the body can function and minister as they are led by God when gathered. And God gave more gifts than pastors. He gave some apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. Not just pastors. Yet somehow Christendom has been dominated by these men and mans traditions that created an unbiblical “clergy and Laity” division in the body. Make elders , (plural) are yo be in every church. We should not have one man dominate or it’d over others in a supreme authority as Paul said “ 2 Corinthians 1:24. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.”.

3. No “programs” that are run by the time clock in spirit quenching forms. That is because on these man made “programs” the rest of the body is not in this program neither I fear is Christ many times. These programs often quench the spirit and bind up the body not allowing body ministry in Christ.

4. No paid ministers. This is a man madectradition also. The elders should work with thier own hands as Paul said in Acts 20:33-35. Yes, itinerant preachers who travel from one place to another can receive benefit from the body for the work. But even in this Paul did not like to take from others he often worked.

5. No song leaders. This tradition of men hinders the body ministry again as we read all can have a song a hymn a spiritual song Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Cor 14:26, etc. And Christ is the one in the midst singing praise to God and by him let us offer the sacrifice of praise.

6. The man made tradition of sitting in pews we’re everyone faces forward and looks at the back of each others heads to the exalted man on the thing called the altar, or stage. This is again a tradition of man that treats the gatherings like a lecture and fights against body ministry and exalts the man elevated on the platform. Scripture shows that they met in homes for ministry and function in the church. A home is a family environment and all face each other and can minister to each other and have a meal and fellowship. This is not possible in the man made religious buildings and the way the entire firm is structured.

7. Another man made tradtion is women overseers or bishops over all who teach. This is wrong in a few areas. First there should not be one person exalted in oversight but a plurality of male elders who feed, and watch over, not who dominate and lord over. Secondly, we read that a bishop must be the husband of one wife and rule well his own house. And a woman should not teach over or usurp authority over the man.

8.Another man made tradition is to take tax exemptions and have to be regulated by the government. This is not right for the body must be free to give money to the poor and not have the world regulate us. To draw strength from the shadow of Egypt and a covering from them instead of from God is a shame. “ Isaiah 30:1. Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:2. That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!3. Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.”

9. The Lords supper as a snack. In scripture the supper was a full meal a love feast in homes.

There are many more but this is a good start.

Basically almost everything we do as believers today when gathered in these religious forms and traditions is unbiblical and affects the order of God and hinders the body.

Click to expand...

Personally, I don't know anyone who thinks of the Lords Supper as a "snack," regardless of the denomination involved. That aside, you have described some traditions or church customs, that's right.

You may find fault with them, but neither are they doctrines. Therefore, they are not part of what's called Sacred Tradition which we here were discussing before.

How long, exactly, should a corrupt practice or erroneous doctrine be permitted to continue on before it is corrected?

Albion said:

How long, exactly, should a corrupt practice or erroneous doctrine be permitted to continue on before it is corrected?

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I'd guess 10 more years, 15 at the most until it implodes, which will be 495 - 500 years.

Root of Jesse said:

A corrupt practice, being a practice, can and should be corrected as soon as it's discovered. You would have to prove a doctrine erroneous before anything could be done.

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And what if an individual spotted it and brought it to the attention of the congregation to no avail?

Root of Jesse said:

You're right, which is why I obey God to the best of my ability.

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Then stop idolizing the woman . thats disobedience to God

Root of Jesse said:

A corrupt practice, being a practice, can and should be corrected as soon as it's discovered. You would have to prove a doctrine erroneous before anything could be done.

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Well, the good kings of Judah like Asa, Jehoshaphat, Hezekiah, and Josiah, generated spiritual reforms by helping to get rid of idols. The effect of the reform was reversed later by the evil kings, but restored again with the returning remnants. God's people may struggle to do the right thing, but I think what is considered an erroneous doctrine or a corrupt practice, is already proven in the Scripture. I personally wonder why the Catholic church has never gotten rid of its high places, but that is just my personal curiosity. We all have free wills to believe what we want.

It makes sense for us to love and obey and follow Christ through the Church He gave us.

Charity beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Root of Jesse said:

Well, the Catholic Church is in a constant state of reformation, and has been for 2000 years. Luther's problem was that he didn't think we were reforming fast enough.

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Yikes denial much ?
Its taken 500 years to budge on 1 point of the 99 ... And that moves been misdirection..
Not reforming fast enough?
Neither the rcc or the lutherens have made any profress in 500 yeas ..ya just had a spat.
Still baptizing babies without thier consent.
Still idolizing the woman
Still lording it over people with the imposition of a spiritual elitism over a laity ...
Best know as the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
Reformed??? Not one bit

Gracia Singh said:

It makes sense for us to love and obey and follow Christ through the Church He gave us.

Charity beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

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And ... Light can have no fellowship with darkness.
So HIS body does not commit spiritual adultery with another in idolatry .
Its not loving him to join with those who are being unfaithful to him .