How far into Revelation are we now?

miamited

Ted
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Hi ewq,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:
First, This horseman is one of 4 and 3 of which are clearly evil so I think it's a light assumptions that the first one is also part of the overall group of 4.

I appreciate that you do at least agree that it would only be an assumption to understand it that way.

You also wrote:
Second, anti can mean against but it also means "instead of" as in a copy or imitation so coming on a white horse like Christ does fits the idea of the Antichrist coming as a false Christ. Christ warned about false christs.

While all of those statements are true statements, they can't be insinuated to have some relevance to the horsemen of the Revelation of Jesus. They are merely true statements that stand as true, separate and apart from the description of the rider on the white horse.

You also wrote:
Third, Christ's second coming is found in the 6th seal so the first seal isn't also the second coming. Each seal shows events from one of the 7 trumpets so none repeat.

No, Christ's second coming is found in chapter 14 beginning in verse 14 of the Revelation. I never claimed that the horseman on the white horse as the seals are being broken open to be about Jesus' second coming. It actually describes his first visitation to us. No, I don't agree that the 7 trumpet judgments are representative of the opening of the seals. The trumpet judgments come after the opening of the sixth seal so all of the first five seals were broken open before the trumpet judgments are sounded. They are already done by the time the Revelation heralds the trumpet judgments.

You also wrote:
Fourth, In Rev 19 Christ comes with a sword to conquer his enemies, not a bow.

That is correct, but I'm not claiming that the events of Jesus' coming in Revelation 19 are the same as the horseman we are shown in the beginning. I'm merely saying that the description found of the rider on the white horse matches the description found of Jesus' at his second coming as coming to us as a rider on a white horse.

You also wrote:
Fifth, There is no occurrence in Rev. that Christ is mentioned and is not clearly identified as Jesus Christ either by name or title that only applies to him.

Well, if I'm correct about the rider on the white horse in the beginning, then there is one reference to Jesus where he apparently isn't identified as you claim that he must be in all references to him in the Revelation. We will have to wait and see.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

Ted
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I don't think he will even be human, and that he will rule the world for a short time.

Hi ewq,

I'm not even sure that we can, through the Scriptures, declare that the final Antichrist will 'rule' the world for a short time. He will certainly turn men's hearts away from God and His salvation through Jesus, but I'd ask for the passages from which you glean that he will actually rule the world. According to the Scriptures, Satan rules the world. He has at least since the day in which he offered unto Jesus all the kingdoms of the world back in the temptation of Christ in the wilderness. He clearly and plainly tells Jesus that he has authority in this world to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world.

He will be a human. We are told that there are already many antichrists who have gone forth in the world and that seems to be a reference to people who teach against the message of salvation through Christ. Then we are told that there will come one final Antichrist and this is going to be a man just as all the other antichrists that the passage references, although he will certainly be doing the work of Satan, as anyone who teaches against the salvation of God through His Christ is doing the work of Satan.

This final Antichrist will be more powerful and persuasive in his arguments against the Christ. This is why it might be possible that even the elect would have been deceived if God had not cut short those days. His ability to be more powerful and persuasive in his arguments may well be because the Scriptures do tell us that a time is coming when the love of most will grow cold. So, let's see if we can create a picture of what this is telling us.

There have been many people who have made great attempts to teach against the salvation afforded to mankind through the work and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There was a time that Oprah Winfrey declared that she couldn't accept that only Jesus could offer us the way of eternal life. She would be an antichrist. However, the Scriptures tell us, if we read Paul's warning to the Roman believers, that the world is going to become very, very wicked and unbelieving concerning the things of God. When that time comes, then a powerful and persuasive person who then teaches against the salvation afforded to us through the Christ, will have a fairly easy time of it. It will be such an easy argument to make, because of the unbelief of so many, that man's natural desire to be liked and in agreement with others will find that even many of the elect may begin to question their loyalty and love of God and the promise of eternal life through His Christ. I believe that this is what God is referring to when He caused to be written to us that even the elect might fall away if He had not cut short those days.

I don't think he will come out of Israel, but rather will merely be some highly persuasive hater of the things of God in our eyes. He could come from any nation. Yes, he will stand on a wing of the temple and declare abominations concerning the things of God. However today, that could be the pope visiting Israel or pretty much any powerful nation leader visiting Israel. It doesn't, based on any of the evidences of the Scriptures, have to be a Jew who has been given rule over Israel.

I think that we need to be careful to pigeonhole this person that we believe to be the final Antichrist as coming from this place or that place. It could cause us to miss someone who turns out to be the final Antichrist because we're expecting the wrong thing about him. That's exactly what happened in Israel when Jesus came.

The Jews were expecting a conqueror and all they got was this meek and mild mannered teacher. They missed their Messiah because they were looking for the wrong things for him to be doing. So, let's be careful in our study and understanding of the things of God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Douggg

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Hi douggg,

No. I don't think that the Antichrist has any part with Israel, beyond being instrumental in making some sort of covenant with Israel. But I'm confident that he will not be a Jew, nor will he ever be a leader in Israel.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Ted,

Do you believe Jesus had any part to do with Israel? Do you believe Jesus was a Jew?

Do you believe Jesus was rejected by Jews as being the King of Israel ? I think you are going to answer yes to all those questions.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

anti-. word-forming element meaning "against, opposed to, opposite of, instead," from Old French anti- and directly from Latin anti-, from Greek anti "against, opposite, instead of," also used as a prefix, from PIE *anti "against," also "in front of" (see ante).

The Antichrist will be someone who is anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against, Jesus the rightful King of Israel.
_______________________________________________________

Is the King of Israel, the King of the Roman Empire? No.

The person we are talking about will be at times, the King of the Roman empire in the end times, and in a different role as the King of Israel, the Antichrist.

as the little hon, and beast - King of the Roman Empire end times
as the Antichrist - King of Israel

Look at what the Jews are looking for... minute 0:36-0:43, messiah the King of Israel.

 
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miamited

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Hi douggg,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:
The Antichrist will be someone who is anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against, Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

If you can show me that from the Scriptures, then I'd be glad to look over your evidence.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Douggg

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Hi douggg,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:


If you can show me that from the Scriptures, then I'd be glad to look over your evidence.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
From 1John2:18, them he was talking to were already aware that antitchrist will come. They got that idea from somewhere.

In John 5:43
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. [my comment, the Antichrist]

Okay, let's look and see where that underlined is being used in conjunction with being the King of Israel.

John 12:12
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
 
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ewq1938

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I appreciate that you do at least agree that it would only be an assumption to understand it that way.

A light assumption. I consider the view that this is Jesus as a bigger assumption.

You also wrote:


While all of those statements are true statements, they can't be insinuated to have some relevance to the horsemen of the Revelation of Jesus. They are merely true statements that stand as true, separate and apart from the description of the rider on the white horse.

You take a rider on a white horse that conquers as evidence that it is Christ while scripture shows us that a false Christ could certain want to use the same things of a white horse and conquering to be a false Christ, copying these things we associate with Christ's return.


No, Christ's second coming is found in chapter 14 beginning in verse 14 of the Revelation.

That's after he has arrived. The 6th seal speaks of his arrival. It's important because IMO no two seals speak of the same one event. Since the 6th seal has the second coming, the first seal is not Christ's coming.

Well, if I'm correct about the rider on the white horse in the beginning, then there is one reference to Jesus where he apparently isn't identified as you claim that he must be in all references to him in the Revelation. We will have to wait and see.

It's just evidence to show that the first horseman isn't Christ...You have a white horse and conquering and nothing else, but there is more evidence that shows differences and why this could be someone pretending to be Christ.
 
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ewq1938

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According to the Scriptures, Satan rules the world. He has at least since the day in which he offered unto Jesus all the kingdoms of the world back in the temptation of Christ in the wilderness. He clearly and plainly tells Jesus that he has authority in this world to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world.


If Satan rules the world, then certainly the AC will in a more direct manner since Satan is the power behind the beast empire the AC will rule over. I also believe the AC is Satan himself, or in the least a man Satan possesses. Either way, the ruler of the world will rule the world as a false Christ for a short time.
 
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Revealing Times

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Hello, so as you said the remnant in Roman's 11 and Zachariah 13 are the same.. So they are the Israelite who repent (1/3) and remain on the earth....The remnant in Rev 12 you said in your other post refers to Gentile...So if the woman as we both agree meaning Israel then how can her remnant being Gentiles??
I didn't say it is HER REMNANT......I said as per the scripture, it's the REMNANT of HER SEED which is Jesus Christ. Meaning that they were the Remnant Church OF Jesus Christ, not of Israel, but of Israel's PROMISED SEED. Wouldn't you say the CHURCH is of Christ ? So the Remnant Church on earth whilst the Raptured Church is in Heaven would be of HER SEED Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The PROMISED SEED was Jesus, he was the SEED of Israel.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman {Israel or the 1/3 who REPENT}, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed{Jesus' Church are IN Heaven, those who REPENTED after the Rapture are ON EARTH as he Remnant Church of Jesus Christ}, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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pasifika

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I didn't say it is HER REMNANT......I said as per the scripture, it's the REMNANT of HER SEED which is Jesus Christ. Meaning that they were the Remnant Church OF Jesus Christ, not of Israel, but of Israel's PROMISED SEED. Wouldn't you say the CHURCH is of Christ ? So the Remnant Church on earth whilst the Raptured Church is in Heave would be of HER SEED Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The PROMISED SEED was Jesus, he was the SEED of Israel.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman {Israel or the 1/3 who REPENT}, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed{Jesus' Church are IN Heaven, those who REPENTED after the Rapture are ON EARTH as he Remnant Church of Jesus Christ}, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Hello, okay thank you
 
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Erik Nelson

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Jesus via John in Revelation took many Old Testament stories/images and painted a picture for us using these passages. Rev. 12's Woman is seen via Genesis 37:9, the Rev. 17 Harlot can be seen in Daniel 5 the feast given by Belshazzar where they drank from God's Holy Temple Chalices/Cups. Gd then sendemned them via the Handwriting on the wall, Mene, Mene, Tekel, you Kingdom has been found wanting, so that very day he fell. BABYLON FALLS, get it ?

Gog and Magog in Rev. 20 is just like Daniel 5, it is something that happens 1000 years after the Gog and Magog spoken of in Daniel, because that happens just before the Tribulation period. Russia and his compatriots come against Israel, this clears a path for the European Anti-Christ to come forth.
Gog and Magog aren't in Daniel 5??
 
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Douggg

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John 5:43 was not an END TIME tag, he was speaking SPECIFICALLY to the Jews during his time, they understood the Messiah to be a POLITICAL SAVIOR who was a Jew, they never understood he was to be the Son of God and STILL DON'T think that way today !! They think he's a Political figure who has to b a Jew.....GET THAT ? Has to be a Jew !!
Here is what the Jews think. minute 0:36 - 0:47 the messiah's role is King of Israel.


The Jews declare the role of the messiah is to be the King of Israel. And in this video, the speaker says when the messiah comes all other religions will fade away.

Well, look at what it says in 2Thessalonians2:3...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
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Berean Tim

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The abomination of desolation occurs in Jerusalem. Some say that also occurred in the past involving Antiochus Epiphanes. Rev. 19 is obviously future. My view of the Beast is also different. I believe Islam is the Beast. Ten Islamic nations will join together to attack Israel. This should be no surprise, they are anti- Christ's and antisemitic - always have been.
Actually, we can also view three horns that have been plucked: Satan, Mubarak, Qudafi. Or Assad may be one of them. Satan sits on his throne where? PERGAMOS (PRESENT DAY TURKEY).
DO you know that 666 in the Greek looks exactly like an Arab phrase, "In the name of Allah." AND the mark of the Beast ( In the name of Allah) is worn on terrorist head bands and sleeves.
Also Rev. 20:4 is the signature of the Beast -- cutting off heads.
BTW, Louis Farakan just claimed he was Jesus! But I think an Islamic leader will March into a Mosque or church and make the claim, that he is God.
It couldn't be Antiochus as Jesus spoke of the AOD as a future event. Antiochus was nearly 200 years before the Olivet Discourse. I also think the 10 horns of the final beast will be from Islamic nations. I have read Walid Shoebat and his view of 666. Him and his son have some strange views I would urge anyone to stay away from him
 
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parousia70

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Ted,
The Antichrist will be someone who is anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against, Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

I guess we should be in no rush to identify this person then, since Israel, being a multi-ethnic secular democracy, is in no rush to morph into a Hebrew Theocratic Monarchy anytime soon.
 
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Ronald

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It couldn't be Antiochus as Jesus spoke of the AOD as a future event. Antiochus was nearly 200 years before the Olivet Discourse. I also think the 10 horns of the final beast will be from Islamic nations. I have read Walid Shoebat and his view of 666. Him and his son have some strange views I would urge anyone to stay away from him
I didn't say Jesus spoke of Antiochus.
It is said that Antiochus Epiphanes is the person referred to in Dan. 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation."

He was hostile, he controlled Jerusalem, he caused the sacrifices to cease, he pretended to be god manifest/ the illustrious one (meaning of Epiphanes).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I didn't say Jesus spoke of Antiochus.
It is said that Antiochus Epiphanes is the person referred to in Dan. 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation."

He was hostile, he controlled Jerusalem, he caused the sacrifices to cease, he pretended to be god manifest/ the illustrious one (meaning of Epiphanes).
Double fulfillment on Jerusalem 70ad maybe?

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 11:31 Showing the use of the Definite Article -
THE Abomination of Desolation
Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 12:11 Showing the Absence of the Definite Article -
AN Abomination of Desolation

Daniel 11:31
and arms/02220 z@rowa` from him, they shall stand up. And they profane//violate/02490 chalal the Sanctuary/04720 miqdash, the-Refuge/ma`owz. And they take-away/05493 cuwr the-Continually/08548 tamiyd, and they give/05414 nathan The-Abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-making-desolate/08074 shamem.

Daniel 12:11

And-from-time he-is-taken-away/05493 cuwr the-continually/08548 tamiyd, and-to-give-of/05414 nathan an-abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-desolating/08074 shamem, days, thousand, twohundreds, and ninety
l
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Remember, this is all about the 1st century Temple Jesus is talking about:

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,

Matthew 24:15

Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>, the being declared<4483> thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood<2476> in a place<5117>, holy<40> (the one-reading<ἀναγινώσκων <314> let him be understanding<νοείτω 3539>)...
16 then those in the Judea let them be fleeing!<5343> into the mountains<3735>
 
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Ronald

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Double fulfillment on Jerusalem 70ad maybe?

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 11:31 Showing the use of the Definite Article -
THE Abomination of Desolation
Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 12:11 Showing the Absence of the Definite Article -
AN Abomination of Desolation

Daniel 11:31
and arms/02220 z@rowa` from him, they shall stand up. And they profane//violate/02490 chalal the Sanctuary/04720 miqdash, the-Refuge/ma`owz. And they take-away/05493 cuwr the-Continually/08548 tamiyd, and they give/05414 nathan The-Abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-making-desolate/08074 shamem.

Daniel 12:11

And-from-time he-is-taken-away/05493 cuwr the-continually/08548 tamiyd, and-to-give-of/05414 nathan an-abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-desolating/08074 shamem, days, thousand, twohundreds, and ninety
l
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Remember, this is all about the 1st century Temple Jesus is talking about:

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,

Matthew 24:15

Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>, the being declared<4483> thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood<2476> in a place<5117>, holy<40> (the one-reading<ἀναγινώσκων <314> let him be understanding<νοείτω 3539>)...
16 then those in the Judea let them be fleeing!<5343> into the mountains<3735>
Yes, double fulfillment and maybe one to come. There have been many antichrists and so the big one to come will be an abomination who will cause desolation. He will persecute Jews and Christians - actually he already has.
 
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Revealing Times

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Gog and Magog aren't in Daniel 5??
The Rev. 20 story is just like the Rev. 17 Harlot prose being TAKEN from Daniel 5.

So its just like much of the book of Revelation, its a code book using Old Testament lingo.
 
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Revealing Times

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Here is what the Jews think. minute 0:36 - 0:47 the messiah's role is King of Israel.


The Jews declare the role of the messiah is to be the King of Israel. And in this video, the speaker says when the messiah comes all other religions will fade away.

Well, look at what it says in 2Thessalonians2:3...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
A political leader..........NOT THE SON OF GOD !!

And the FALLING AWAY is THE RAPTURE.
 
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Revealing Times

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It couldn't be Antiochus as Jesus spoke of the AOD as a future event. Antiochus was nearly 200 years before the Olivet Discourse. I also think the 10 horns of the final beast will be from Islamic nations. I have read Walid Shoebat and his view of 666. Him and his son have some strange views I would urge anyone to stay away from him

Igmore both the RCC is the Beast/Pope is the Beast/False Prophet guys and the Islam is the Beast guys, Satan is hoodwinking many via headfakes. The Beast will be A MAN who has t be the president of the E.U. because he arises out of the HEAD of the Fourth Beast !!

We have to cross reference all the clues, he is a Assyrian {Isaiah chapter 10}, he is arising out of the Fourth Beasts Head {Dan. 7} and he must be born in one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the LAST DAYS, {Dan. 8} We have to combine all these clues to get the answer. Hes of Turkish descent, he has to be born in both a Nation within the E.U. {so he can arise to power there} and in one of the Four Generals Kingdoms. Psssttttttttt, only Greece fits all three.

Greece is in the E.U., they have a common border with Turkey and thus many Turks live there and always have. Hes an Assyrian {Turk} born in Greece who eventually arises to power in the E.U.

Now we can look at Dan. 11 in a new light, we get the detailed account of all the Greek Kingdoms which has nothing else in the bible like it as per its precise details, so much that scholars will argue Daniel could't have written this whilst in Babylon, this was written after the facts they say, lol, OK.

Dan. 11:21-32-33 is about Antiochus, verses 33 and 34 are probably about the 2500 year in between, just a short reference to many will be made WHITE....Well yes, Jesus makes us white as snow voa his blood............Then we move straight into the Anti-Christs times in verses 36 -45. So Walid might mean well, as does Joel Richardson, but they are both off, as are the RCC types.
 
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I didn't say Jesus spoke of Antiochus.
It is said that Antiochus Epiphanes is the person referred to in Dan. 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation."

He was hostile, he controlled Jerusalem, he caused the sacrifices to cease, he pretended to be god manifest/ the illustrious one (meaning of Epiphanes).

EXACTLY..........

Yes, double fulfillment and maybe one to come. There have been many antichrists and so the big one to come will be an abomination who will cause desolation. He will persecute Jews and Christians - actually he already has.

I tend to think if Israel had accepted Christ he would have saved them in 70 AD. Eve though God knows all things, He still has plans via His 70 weeks decree to punish Israel an bring them unto repentance, He inserted the Church and stripped Israel of her Mantle, and gave it unto the Gentiles. So Antiochus was the TYPE, and Nero might have fulfilled that Prophecy except Israel rejected Christ at that time, the God inserted the Church Age.

Antiochus had a FALSE PROPHET TYPE also, his name was Jason, real name Yeshua, he tried to Hellenize the Jews. Thus the Maccabeans Revolted. He was a Jewish High Priest, he bribed Antiochus who the killed Onias III, {Jason's brother} a Pious High Priest.
 
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