What is the woman's role in the family and church?

bekkilyn · Apr 7, 2019

Romans 8 said:
That's great that you're reading the bible. Both verses claim that men and women should love one another. But they say nothing about authority.

Well gee, maybe that's because it is *Christ* and Christ alone who has authority.

ChicanaRose · Apr 7, 2019

derpytia said:
Women in the OT were given a lot of respect, freedom, and protection under the law of God.

They were given protection during pregnancy - Exodus 21:22
God says that children must honor their Father AND their Mother - Exodus 20:12, Exodus 21:15, Exodus 21:17
Proverbs chapter 31 describes and PRAISES a woman who a husband "trusts from his heart". She is able to plant a whole vineyard with her own hand (look, a woman working) after buying it herself. She provides for the household and even the servants herself. She makes and sells things to provide for her household (look, a woman owning a business). She "opens her mouth with wisdom" (she is educated in the law and is capable of being wise).
Elisha the consults with a woman and listens to her in 2 Kings 4:22-25.
In 2 Kings 22:14-20, Israel's priests went to a woman prophetess to hear what God had to say and listened to her.
In Judges 4:4-8 Deborah, a woman, was a prophetess and a God-appointed JUDGE over Israel.
In Deuteronomy men AND women alike are encouraged to learn God's word and law for themselves so that they might be educated. Deuteronomy 31:12.
In Nehemiah 8:1-3 men AND women listened to the public reading of the law so that both sexes could hear and understand it.

It is only when scholars who had no business being scholars said things like "Sin began with a woman, and thanks to her we must all die." or "You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that forbidden tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law . . . You destroyed so easily God’s image, man." in Jesus' day that women lost their rights at the hands of men.

When God said that men will rule over women to Eve, He wasn't giving a command. He was telling her what would happen due to the now fallen nature of the world. And look, it happened. Men started treating women terribly and dominating them because they could instead of partnering with her in a relationship where they are equal.

Thank you for compiling this list! These are great heroines of the Bible.

I think allowing male headship in the family does not mean us women are giving up our basic rights.
It just means that we need to pick our battles and let the spouse win the argument if it is over a trivial matter. It also means that we may not get to do 100 percent of what we want to do, at the time that we want to do it. We may face times when we need to delay pursuing our dreams in order to prioritize working on the marriage or taking care of the family.

Paidiske · Apr 7, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
So what is wrong with giving up a little bit of control over my life (like 0.01 percent) so I can have a good marriage?

That's not what we're discussing here, though. Do I agree with stuff my husband wants even though it's not what I would choose? Sure. Happens pretty much every day. That's part of loving him. In a healthy marriage there's love and care and give and take.

That is not the same as saying he should have the final say in everything, because he's the man.

bekkilyn · Apr 7, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
Jesus loved His church but is still its head (authority). Ephesians 5 also explicates the way in which husbands and wives are to "submit" to one another, which was the whole point of the follow-up from "submit to one another" beginning with "wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." Husbands "submit" themselves to their wives by sacrificing their time, energy and body's to nurture and protect their wife.

Love does not exclude authority, or the very one who is love has failed to demonstrate what He himself is.

The problem here in this thread though is that there are those who falsely believe it is only the wife who must submit to the husband and not *mutual* submission where both submit to the other and put the other's needs before his or her own.

Another problem is that there is a common misreading of scripture when it comes to the husband being head of the wife. Paul is saying the husband is head of the wife because he is referring to the way Greco-Roman marriages were set up in the first century, with a single male patriarch heading the family with women, minor children, and slaves as his responsibility (and property for the most part). Paul is not saying *to* set up families in this manner, but is referring to the way that they were already set up and so he is using this family structure (this "household code") to try to help these new Gentile converts who were living within this family structure, how to understand Christ. Paul worked within the social system of his day vs. starting a war between Christians and the Roman Empire and thus hindering the spread of the Gospel, but it doesn't mean that he idealized these social structures.

The idea of "biblical headship" in marriage or between human men who are not Jesus and women is a false doctrine and a contradiction to both Jesus and Paul's messages.

Gregory Thompson · Apr 7, 2019

Thir7ySev3n said:
And anything with two heads is already a freak.

God loves all the freaks though, so what is your point?

Brightmoon · Apr 7, 2019

Romans 8 said:
That sounds quite extreme. But, should women then rule the coop? I don't think having a mom in charge of the father is healthy for the kids. And then what, do we campaign for kids having two mommies or two daddies?
Where did the logic incubate that statess we do a complete reversal to compensate for a few cases of abuse?
I think that's great that your sons can do al of those things. So can I, and I do them all. But that's not the point of the thread. There is an order that should be kept for maximum benefit of all.

One third of women have been in a domestic violence relationship. It’s not a few ! Order is overrated seig heil! Arbitrarily deciding that the man is right( even when he isn’t is just silly!

ChicanaRose said:
Why are we completely ruling out the possibility that a man can lead without being abusive?

Yeah if you’re walking down a mountainside trail .

Romans 8 said:
Did you read Genesis 3:16?

TL; DR

The Bible also says the the earth is flat and has 4 corners and that the sky is a hard canopy that God walks on. I Don’t care! Bible verses don’t trump reality!

Romans 8 said:
I would doubt that people in that time period would openly discuss their sex lives. And since most married couple had large families I presume the sex life was a bit on the rich side.

for the man, women were supposed to lay back and think of England. If women let on that they enjoyed sex they were sometimes put into mental institutions.

ChicanaRose · Apr 7, 2019

Paidiske said:
Do I agree with stuff my husband wants even though it's not what I would choose? Sure. Happens pretty much every day. That's part of loving him. In a healthy marriage there's love and care and give and take.

Yes, I was thinking along the lines of something like that; for the sake of harmony in marriage.

Paidiske said:
That is not the same as saying he should have the final say in everything, because he's the man.

I think this may be the dividing line in this thread.

Gregory Thompson · Apr 7, 2019

I think we may be heading in a similar direction as some congregations where the genders were on opposite sides of the building .. except we'll have women churches, and men churches.

Romans 8 · Apr 7, 2019

Brightmoon said:
One third of women have been in a domestic violence relationship.

I call " " on this. These are inflated statistics of women's groups looking for government funding and public support.

Yeah if you’re walking down a mountainside trail .
TL; DR
The Bible also says the the earth is flat

The bible does not say the earth is flat.

ChicanaRose · Apr 7, 2019

Brightmoon said:
Yeah if you’re walking down a mountainside trail .

Okay, maybe these men are rare treasures. But we (believers) are the few, who walk through the narrow gate, so it doesn't surprise me if such ideal men are few in number.

Brightmoon · Apr 7, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I call " " on this. These are inflated statistics of women's groups looking for government funding and public support.

The bible does not say the earth is flat.

tell that to the flat earthers I deal with all the time

ChicanaRose · Apr 7, 2019

Brightmoon said:
One third of women have been in a domestic violence relationship. It’s not a few ! Order is overrated seig heil! Arbitrarily deciding that the man is right( even when he isn’t is just silly!

Is there a research showing correlation between domestic violence and a biblical interpretation of male headship?

I do believe that there should be zero tolerance for domestic violence. But I don't see biblical interpretation being listed as the contributing factor of domestic violence.

Of course, if a man twists the Scripture to justify his violence, that would be wholly wrong.

derpytia · Apr 7, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
Okay, maybe these men are rare treasures. But we (believers) are the few, who walk through the narrow gate, so it doesn't surprise me if such ideal men are few in number.

It's certainly starting to feel that way. I've met more men who turned out to be bad than good.

Paidiske · Apr 7, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
Is there a research showing correlation between domestic violence and a biblical interpretation of male headship?

There is, actually.

Research into the attitudes driving domestic violence has found three distinctive shared features of those who do it:

- Acceptance of violence
- Acceptance of gender-based hierarchy
- Acceptance of rigid gender roles.

You can see some information here: OurWatch - Let's bust some myths about what drives violence against women

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 7, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Most of the time I find that the women that argue this fact, are those that are wired to be more assertive. It's not a bad thing. It's just that they are the minority so they cannot relate to the fact that most women are more emotional than men and most men are more logic driven.

It's not an insult or a compliment.. it's just fact.

Not sure about that one Jacks. There are plenty of logical women and lots of emotional men. As an FiSe, I tend to be on the emotional side.

This difference I have noted between women and men - women are much better-looking.

Brightmoon · Apr 7, 2019

Thank you , rigid sex roles does lead to domestic violence!

Romans 8 · Apr 7, 2019

derpytia said:
From the moment sin entered into the world it started happening. Why do you think there was so much sin in the world that God had to create the Flood in Noah's day? It happened in the days of Moses, which is why God set down the laws protecting and uplifting the women of Israel. God knew it was happening and did not approve. He did not want His people to treat women like other nations did which makes sense because He wanted His people to be Holy.

It happened in the New Testament during Jesus day after these scholars I mentioned started solely blaming women for the Fall. Israel's women lost their rights. They were not allowed to speak to men in public for any reason. They were not allowed to get an education, to speak or ask questions about God's law. They were not even allowed to hear or read God's law for themselves. And many women were not allowed to leave their homes unless accompanied by their husband or father. Jesus did the unthinkable when he addressed women in public places, treated them as spiritual equals, and spoke of the Word of God with them.

So you think some sort of "biblical feminism" was started by Jesus in the NT? Do you think God commands a different treatment of women from the OT to the NT?

The mistreatment of women in or out of a marriage still happens today. If you doubt that then maybe it would be a good idea for you to some of your own research. You are fortunate the live in Canada where women have rights set down by your country's laws. Women in some other countries are NOT afforded the same rights.

I understand the perils of this world but what does this have to do with leadership roles?

In Canada women have more rights than men. Canada is was voted the best place in the world for a woman to live.

ChicanaRose · Apr 7, 2019

Paidiske said:
There is, actually.

Research into the attitudes driving domestic violence has found three distinctive shared features of those who do it:

- Acceptance of violence
- Acceptance of gender-based hierarchy
- Acceptance of rigid gender roles.

You can see some information here: OurWatch - Let's bust some myths about what drives violence against women

Thank you for the article.

PloverWing · Apr 7, 2019

myst33 said:
Exactly. Its much better to accomodate to biblical roles to harmonize different strengths and weaknesses of both genders than to rely on modern cultural expectations that genders do not differ.

It's much better not to treat people as categories. If I'm looking at a specific marriage between two specific individuals -- let's say, Bob and Jane -- then what's important is Bob and Jane's actual personalities, strengths, and weaknesses. It would be a mistake to insist that Bob and Jane conform to my ideas about Men-in-General and Women-in-General. Bob and Jane need to figure out what they're actually good at, as two distinct individuals, and then build the marriage on that.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Apr 7, 2019

Romans 8 said:
One of the most clearly stated topics in the bible, yet most grossly ignored is that men should lead the church and family. Why do we disagree on this basic command, yet not so long ago this was the norm. Women were the caretakers looking after the children and the household while the men were off at work taking care of the finances. All of this worked without a hitch until feminism took hold and convinced women they were slaves, and that freedom could be found in the workforce.

On the same note, men have always been the leaders in the church as pastors and teachers, leading the congregation as they were instructed by the bible. Today there's a riff in this order, as both men and women are starting to incorporate their cultural conditioning and social engineering into the church. No longer is it okay for a male led church in some congregations because "women can do the same job". But can they? We were instructed by God to maintain the order He set forth.

We can already see the impact feminism has made on families and higher divorce rates, which leads to children growing up without a father psychological issues because of it. What sort of impact can we expect if we allow women to take leadership roles in the church?

When Adam and Eve were hiding from God, who was God calling out for and hold responsible?

What is the woman's role in the family and church?

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