What is the woman's role in the family and church?

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Paidiske

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You may not be... I did state that this is not an absolute.. but.. humanity depends on this. It is the perfect compliment in a marriage.

Humanity depends on it? No. Humanity depends on us learning to work together, drawing on the strengths and gifts of each, not one group getting to make all the decisions.

But, watch two parents as their toddler runs along and falls down skinning their knee..

The mom..... "Oh dear.. are you OK.. let me kiss it better."
The Dad.... "come on now... you're OK.. brush that dirt off, you're a tough guy, right"?

We're different and these differences are no mistake or accident.

Social conditioning.

I know that this is the common claim... but.. where are women being denied their full humanity. Women, now, can vote, work, do anything a man can... and more.
At this time in history women have the run of it. You cannot even say anything against them or you will be publicly destroyed.. while men are painted as the Homer Simpsons of the world an basically only "sperm donors" now.

If I listed all the ways I've been discriminated against for being a woman, we'd be here for pages. It happened. It still happens. It's the fabric of my lived reality; in academia, in the workplace, in volunteer roles, in the church, in the way our society is structured.

You can't say anything? I get called everything from a harlot to a Pagan for daring to be a woman who obeys God and serves her community, and mostly the Christian community offers tacit agreement to the folks who make those insults, by refusing to treat women as equals.

Where do men have control over women?

That's what you're arguing for.
 
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JacksBratt

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It's not just male leadership, it's social structures which don't give women and girls equality of opportunity etc. Literacy was one basic example.

It's not just a matter of following teachings, as if they are dead and abstract. Each Christian must seek to be obedient to God in the particularities of his or her life. And if that means a woman finds herself being called into a leadership role, then we must obey.



As long as women have equal opportunity, as long as men "taking the lead" doesn't mean shutting women out, that's fine.



Yeah... no. It's not.

My natural state of being is to be the person God created, gifted, and calls me to be. To be a person who takes her place in the life and councils of the home, the community, and the church, and uses her gifts to be effective in mission and in building others up. To use all that I am and all that I have in the service of the reign of God.

"Doormat" is not what anyone was created to be.



Because that's what actually happens in real life.



Male and female, in the image and likeness of God. Co-equal, co-workers, and co-heirs in Christ.



You said it, but it's just not true. It's quite possible to have a happy healthy marriage in which decision making is shared and one doesn't rule over the other.



Sounds like weak men complaining because they can't match a strong woman and be her equal partner in life.
I think that the fact that you are a supervisor on this forum, and, by your picture, you hold a position of leadership and authority yourself.. makes a strong case for the fact that you are being allowed your humanity and respected with such power.

Many women are like you.. many don't want to be. Nothing wrong with that.

But, denial of obvious facts is not going to help matters. It only perpetuates the thought that "women don't want to share control, they want all of the control".. Which is counter to the biblical design.
 
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Romans 8

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I strongly believe that, in the end, men abusing their strength and the biblical format that labels them as the head.... is compounded by the curse given to Eve after the fall.

Remember " And your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you"?

Genesis 3:16

This part of this scripture was broken down for me like this..

Your desire (her desire is to be the head or leader)
Is for your husband (God is telling Eve that as a curse, the desire she had to be the leader... is given to Adam.. the husband)
And he will rule over you (much to Eve's dismay, the man will be the head)


This is God's plan and Eve will not like it.. It is still the woman's "desire". But it is like pain in child birth... it is a product of the curse.. Of course women don't like it.. but.. when has anything God put in play been countered without trouble.

Well said my friend. This is the formula. And some women inherited a tad more of this curse than others ;)
 
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Paidiske

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I think that the fact that you are a supervisor on this forum, and, by your picture, you hold a position of leadership and authority yourself.. makes a strong case for the fact that you are being allowed your humanity and respected with such power.

Many women are like you.. many don't want to be. Nothing wrong with that.

But, denial of obvious facts is not going to help matters. It only perpetuates the thought that "women don't want to share control, they want all of the control".. Which is counter to the biblical design.

But you're arguing against that allowing leadership and authority. You want to take that away and say women may not participate.

And, by the way, not all of your assumptions are accurate. I will PM you.
 
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JacksBratt

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Humanity depends on it? No. Humanity depends on us learning to work together, drawing on the strengths and gifts of each, not one group getting to make all the decisions.

Actually, it's been proven statistically that the main reason for the problems in the world today is:
1/ too many homes are fatherless.
2/ too many homes do not eat at least 5 meals a day as a family.

It's not possible to ignore the fact that a God based home functions well and gives the best possible framework for healthy, productive adults from children raised this way.

Not two moms, one mom..... two dads... one dad... but a mom and a dad.



Social conditioning.

Are you saying that "social conditioning" causes these two reactions.. or.. these two different reactions are "social conditioning"...

Either way.. I believe that the mom and dad's different reactions are way too common to be anything but comparable to why birds know how to build a nest, ground hogs dig holes, squirrels bury nuts, salmon fight the current upstream to spawn and guess fly in a "V" formation..

It is God's plan and imprinted on the mind.

I also believe that the reason women get so angry over this is because...it's "your desire"... and God gave it to "your husband".

Fight it and it destroys homes.. work with it and families can know no limits.



If I listed all the ways I've been discriminated against for being a woman, we'd be here for pages. It happened. It still happens. It's the fabric of my lived reality; in academia, in the workplace, in volunteer roles, in the church, in the way our society is structured.
I understand that it happens.. but.. you are where you are, right? It's not right.. but you would not have stood a sniff of a chance in 1800.

You can't say anything? I get called everything from a harlot to a Pagan for daring to be a woman who obeys God and serves her community, and mostly the Christian community offers tacit agreement to the folks who make those insults, by refusing to treat women as equals.

Yep, there are a few stragglers and they are wrong.. but.. again, you would have had no chance even a century ago.



That's what you're arguing for.
There is a difference between "control" and leadership. That's the whole problem. Women don't want to be lead. They want to control. It's in their nature as the words of God himself stated.. "your desire".
 
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Paidiske

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Actually, it's been proven statistically that the main reason for the problems in the world today is:
1/ too many homes are fatherless.
2/ too many homes do not eat at least 5 meals a day as a family.

In order to discuss this, first we'd have to agree what the problems in the world today are.

Top of my list would be the leading causes of death amongst the world's poorest; communicable diseases, issues in pregnancy and childbirth, malnutrition. None of those are attributable primarily to fatherless homes or not eating as a family (except maybe the malnutrition, but there it's the "not eating" part of the equation).

In short, I think you're pointing to stuff that's I don't see as that much of a problem.

It's not possible to ignore the fact that a God based home functions well and gives the best possible framework for healthy, productive adults from children raised this way.

I could agree with that. A God based home; one in which there is a life of prayer, of commitment to God, of participation in a local church, of reflecting together on Scripture, of service.

Don't need a hierarchy to do that.

Are you saying that "social conditioning" causes these two reactions.. or.. these two different reactions are "social conditioning"...

More the former, although now that you mention it, both are true. We all have internal "scripts" about what a good mum does, how a good dad behaves; we tend to conform our behaviour to those scripts, which are the product of conditioning in our lives to that point.

Either way.. I believe that the mom and dad's different reactions are way too common to be anything but comparable to why birds know how to build a nest, ground hogs dig holes, squirrels bury nuts, salmon fight the current upstream to spawn and guess fly in a "V" formation..

It is God's plan and imprinted on the mind.

Except that people who are raised differently parent differently (cultural norms differ, for example), so that doesn't seem like evidence for "imprinting."

I also believe that the reason women get so angry over this is because...it's "your desire"... and God gave it to "your husband".

I'm angry because I'm sick and tired of being infantilised, insulted, put down, dismissed, belittled, patronised, for being a woman. And I want better for my daughter and those who come after me.

I understand that it happens..

But you just said it didn't.

but.. you are where you are, right? It's not right.. but you would not have stood a sniff of a chance in 1800.

So everything is fine now? No.

There is a difference between "control" and leadership. That's the whole problem. Women don't want to be lead. They want to control. It's in their nature as the words of God himself stated.. "your desire".

This is just a blatant flame of women.
 
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Romans 8

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I'm angry because I'm sick and tired of being infantilised, insulted, put down, dismissed, belittled, patronised, for being a woman. And I want better for my daughter and those who come after me.

So everything is fine now? No.

This is just a blatant flame of women.

It sounds like you might be falling victim so some of the disinformation out there. We cannot fully trust the media. There are several lies and fake stories put out in the mainstream media which is used to manipulate us into accepting different agendas. Feminism is an attack on on the family and has been very successful over the past few generations. Feminism was birthed by Edward Bernays in order to get more income out of people in society as most of America was made up of single income homes. There were some positive things to come out of feminism sure, but the main goal was to break up the family. The target is the leader of the household, the man. When they take out the man, the family crumbles. When the family crumbles, the community weakens and the central power structure is strengthened.

It's not a coincidence that divorce laws were weakened at the same time as women were hitting the workforce. It's not a coincidence that it's become profitable for a woman to get divorced, this fuels divorce. She will often get the house, kids, and monthly support by her ex husband, and the government will become her henchman.

The enemy is at work today, just as he has always been and if we buy into his lies, it's going to damage us and our environment (family, community, church, etc).
Be aware that much of the propaganda that supports feminism is not there for your benefit, but rather, for our detriment.
 
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Paidiske

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Feminism is an attack on on the family

Nope. Feminism is a movement seeking equality for women. That's not an attack on anyone.

Feminism was birthed by Edward Bernays in order to get more income out of people in society as most of America was made up of single income homes.

He may have had that goal, but that wasn't what birthed feminism. We can see protofeminist strands in the works of, for example, Christine de Pizan, Modesta di Pozzo di Forzi and Hannah Woolley. First-wave feminism focussed on women's suffrage and other legal inequalities. And so on.

There were some positive things to come out of feminism sure, but the main goal was to break up the family.

Well, I'm a feminist and I have neither a main nor a subsidiary goal of breaking up the family, nor does any feminist I know. This seems to be a strawman unrelated to feminism as a contemporary movement or historical reality.

The target is the leader of the household, the man. When they take out the man, the family crumbles. When the family crumbles, the community weakens and the central power structure is strengthened.

Wanting equality for women doesn't "target" men. It doesn't hurt you in any way. Rather it offers you a stronger society, as women are able to contribute to the full.

It's not a coincidence that divorce laws were weakened at the same time as women were hitting the workforce. It's not a coincidence that it's become profitable for a woman to get divorced, this fuels divorce. She will often get the house, kids, and monthly support by her ex husband, and the government will become her henchman.

The economic situation of both spouses is weaker after divorce; their combined expenses are higher and they aren't able to share resources in the same way. Men, however, tend to recover more quickly and more fully than women, who are often disadvantaged with more care of children. Divorce isn't "profitable," for many women it's a ticket to poverty.

Be aware that much of the propaganda that supports feminism is not there for your benefit, but rather, for our detriment.

I've read a lot of feminist works; even a fair assortment of works of feminist theology. Some of it is bad; much of it is good. But it's what we do with it which matters. What's positive about it, to me, is that it seeks the fullness of life for everybody, and not just for some based on their biology.
 
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salt-n-light

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One of the most clearly stated topics in the bible, yet most grossly ignored is that men should lead the church and family. Why do we disagree on this basic command, yet not so long ago this was the norm. Women were the caretakers looking after the children and the household while the men were off at work taking care of the finances. All of this worked without a hitch until feminism took hold and convinced women they were slaves, and that freedom could be found in the workforce.

On the same note, men have always been the leaders in the church as pastors and teachers, leading the congregation as they were instructed by the bible. Today there's a riff in this order, as both men and women are starting to incorporate their cultural conditioning and social engineering into the church. No longer is it okay for a male led church in some congregations because "women can do the same job". But can they? We were instructed by God to maintain the order He set forth.

We can already see the impact feminism has made on families and higher divorce rates, which leads to children growing up without a father psychological issues because of it. What sort of impact can we expect if we allow women to take leadership roles in the church?

In terms of CERTAIN leadership roles, yes it calls for men only, especially head of the church. Certain leadership roles especially if it’s to nurture kids or women I see only women should be in those roles. But that’s in terms of the CHURCH structure and marriage structure. To say that historically women was ONLY doing this and men were ONLY doing this would be fallacy wrong.

But I wouldn’t say that that is the cause of divorce rates, at most we can say western ideologies have correlation to how women and men roles have been addressed, which politics have successfully override how we should be viewing men and women and their dynamic with one another. Sin is the ultimate reason.

At the end of the day, let us recognize the core reason that feminism had to exist, because of the lack of reverence on mans part for their leadership role. They have historically dishonored their responsibility which led to the rise of women taking up more of a dominant role in keeping the family structure alive for the sake of the next generation. Instead of disregarding that fact, instead of choosing to be paranoid,we should come together and make reason.
 
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Sparagmos

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One of the most clearly stated topics in the bible, yet most grossly ignored is that men should lead the church and family. Why do we disagree on this basic command, yet not so long ago this was the norm. Women were the caretakers looking after the children and the household while the men were off at work taking care of the finances. All of this worked without a hitch until feminism took hold and convinced women they were slaves, and that freedom could be found in the workforce.

On the same note, men have always been the leaders in the church as pastors and teachers, leading the congregation as they were instructed by the bible. Today there's a riff in this order, as both men and women are starting to incorporate their cultural conditioning and social engineering into the church. No longer is it okay for a male led church in some congregations because "women can do the same job". But can they? We were instructed by God to maintain the order He set forth.

We can already see the impact feminism has made on families and higher divorce rates, which leads to children growing up without a father psychological issues because of it. What sort of impact can we expect if we allow women to take leadership roles in the church?

Let’s look at what some early church fathers said about women. Did these ideas come from god, or from the world?

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.
-- Thomas Aquinas, Saint, Doctor of the Church, 13th century

Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good.
-- St. Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian and Doctor of the Church, 13th century

In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell.
-- Tertullian, 2nd-3rd century Churchfather

Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

Tertullian (160?-220?): "Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil's doorway. You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags."

Augustine (354-430): "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."

John Wesley (1703-91): "Wife: Be content to be insignificant. What loss would it be to God or man had you never been born."

Jerome (345?-420): "If it is good for a man not to touch a woman, then it is bad for him to touch one, for bad, and bad only, is the opposite of good."

John Chrysostom (349-407): "Amongst all the savage beasts none is found so harmful as woman."

The root of the idea of women’s submission to men is the worldly, not godly bigotry towards women that existed at the time of the early church. These men’s attitudes towards women came from their human, sinful nature. Jesus’ treatment of women stands in stark contract to the words of these church leaders. None of those men spoke of equality of value but different roles. The clearly thought women were inferior in every way. To continue to promote their ideas, even in a watered down form, is sinful just as those men were sinful in their denigration of women. Jesus included and elevated the role of women, at a time when women were oppressed and denigrated.
 
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Sparagmos

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200 years ago, this would not be an issue. People have no clue what our culture has done to their thinking. One must fully understand their roles in gender and also how we've been manipulated in our thinking. Most people actually think our society's gender roles are normal and "progressive". We've had the natural order since we were created. There is no progression on this.
Do you agree with the way women were regarded and treated 200 years ago?
 
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bekkilyn

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I think this might be one of the most hateful threads I've seen here on CF in a long time. Truly horrible and not Christ-like at all. If all of this hate were directed towards any other group besides women, it would have been shut down long ago.

John 13:34
 
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bekkilyn

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John Wesley (1703-91): "Wife: Be content to be insignificant. What loss would it be to God or man had you never been born."

To be fair to John Wesley, he had a truly horrible marriage. A real horror story all around. I think this particular quote may be more personal than his feelings towards women in general since he supported women in ministry.

"He (Wesley) answered a certain person who said to him, “Mr. Wesley, how is it, that you encourage certain females in preaching?” “Because (said he) God owns them in the conversion of sinners, and who am I that I should withstand God.””
 
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Sparagmos

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To be fair to John Wesley, he had a truly horrible marriage. A real horror story all around. I think this particular quote may be more personal than his feelings towards women in general since he supported women in ministry.

"He (Wesley) answered a certain person who said to him, “Mr. Wesley, how is it, that you encourage certain females in preaching?” “Because (said he) God owns them in the conversion of sinners, and who am I that I should withstand God.””
Fair enough, and goes to show that great church leaders are also sinners. We need to stop promoting destructive theology that came from the weaknesses of people who were in other ways great.
 
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Sparagmos

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I think this might be one of the most hateful threads I've seen here on CF in a long time. Truly horrible and not Christ-like at all. If all of this hate were directed towards any other group besides women, it would have been shut down long ago.

John 13:34
I have felt that many times here.
 
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trophy33

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Fair enough, and goes to show that great church leaders are also sinners. We need to stop promoting destructive theology that came from the weaknesses of people who were in other ways great.
But we can still promote the biblical theology about women, right? :)
 
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trophy33

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What do you think the church leaders quoted in my post #110 were promoting?
They were different people and their quotations differ, so I do not have any general definition for all of them.

For example, what Augustin or Jerome said is very different from what for example Clement said.
 
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PloverWing

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The one issue that we cannot ignore, is that men are, on the average, more logical thinkers and women are more emotional. Not all but on average.

No, I do not accept this as a premise. As Paidiske has said, both men and women vary in their training and their temperaments.

It is much better for a particular husband and wife to work together in a way that harmonizes their actual strengths and weaknesses, rather than for the couple to rely on cultural expectations about gender.

(Note: Even if your assertion were true, it would only be a statement about statistical averages. It says nothing about the particular man and woman in a particular marriage. Are you arguing that if a male artist marries a female mathematician, the wife should be the leader and the husband the follower in this marriage?)
 
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Male or female, we don't always share the same level of power in this world. Churches have hierarchy's: Bishops, pastors, assistant pastors, deacons, etc. So do secular workplaces with managers and supervisors. Military has ranks, and civil occupations have paygrades. There is nothing oppressive about these.

Women who choose to acknowledge her husband's authority do not have to do so reluctantly. She can do so with joy, just as we all serve the Lord with joy. This is just a form of reflecting submission to the Lord in her daily life.

I have a friend with a Masters' degree in Education, who respects her husband's wish for her to stay at home. But she is able to use her education as a volunteer to catechize children at a local church.

But if God's will for her was to become a superintendent of a public school system (and I can totally see her doing that as she is an exceptional woman), I believe that the Holy Spirit would let her husband know that. So in an event a husband is someone who refuses to listen to the Holy Spirit and make selfish requests, I can see how her potential could be restricted.

We live in a fallen world and cannot always live out God's design perfectly. But our own flaws do not make God's design unworkable in and of itself; no more than 50 percent divorce rate make marriages unworkable in and of itself.
 
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