How far into Revelation are we now?

Erik Nelson · Apr 6, 2019

HTacianas said:
John was exiled to Patmos.

Rev 1:9 - I John... was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Patmos was a Roman penal colony. While John was there a messenger came to him and told him the things he had seen:

Rev 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

An angel is simply a messenger. It does not say who that messenger was, but he is identified as a Christian, and told John all the things he had seen:

Rev 1:2 - Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The angel "saw" some things and told the story to John, then had John relay the story to the seven Churches. The story is then a retelling of The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus, though told using the language and imagery of the old testament.

Maybe the messenger had witnessed the same events as Josephus and was relaying those same events, but the language of the story is so similar to Josephus that it is difficult to believe it is from another source.

revelation was written about 66 under Nero

he was the sixth head
representing the sixth caesar who was then

but it's not physically impossible that somehow Josephus is borrowing material from johns revelation

pasifika · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
But that point is IRRELEVANT, the Church made up of Gentiles and Jews will be Raptured to Heaven by the time Rev. 12:17 happens, then the Gentiles who repent will be the REMNANT CHURCH, and the Jews who repent will be THE WOMAN who Flees to Petra.
Hello, If the Church is made up of Jews and Gentiles and there is ONLY ONE CHURCH (one body-which is the Body of Christ) and Jews are descendants of Judah, one of Jacob's 12 sons...so how is then the rest of the 11 tribes be saved? Paul in Romans 11 and Philippians 3:5 who is the Apostles for the Gentiles said he comes from the tribe of Benjamin...Is He included in the Church? He is an Israelite but NOT a Jew. We see in Rev 7 that All 12 tribes included...
Its not the SAME REMNANT, the one spoken of in Romans 11 is the same one in Zechariah.

I clearly explained why it can't be the Jews in 12:17, you just have to listen brother.

THE KEY POINT: Satan goes after the Remnant who OBEY God and SERVE Jesus via testimony.

1.) The 1/3 of the Jews who repent CAN NOT be the Remnant, God Protects them.
Where did you 1/3 figure for Jews? If you refer this figure to Rev 12:4...then I don't think it refers to any humans but angels...the verse said verse4, It's tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth...
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

2.) The 2/3 who REFUSE to repent God says will be cut off and die.

This is SIMPLE LOGIC to me, the 1/3 who FLEE in Rev. 12:17 {the Woman/Israel} are PROTECTED and Satan/Dragon can't get at them, but he other 2/3 do what ? THEY REFUSE TO REPENT !! So this Remnant CAN NOT BE THEM can it ? Because the Scripture clearly says they keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus.
But you see, this proves he Pre tribulation rapture, so have to avoid these points. NATURALLY.

pasifika · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
But that point is IRRELEVANT, the Church made up of Gentiles and Jews will be Raptured to Heaven by the time Rev. 12:17 happens, then the Gentiles who repent will be the REMNANT CHURCH, and the Jews who repent will be THE WOMAN who Flees to Petra.

Its not the SAME REMNANT, the one spoken of in Romans 11 is the same one in Zechariah.

I clearly explained why it can't be the Jews in 12:17, you just have to listen brother.

THE KEY POINT: Satan goes after the Remnant who OBEY God and SERVE Jesus via testimony.

1.) The 1/3 of the Jews who repent CAN NOT be the Remnant, God Protects them.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

2.) The 2/3 who REFUSE to repent God says will be cut off and die.

This is SIMPLE LOGIC to me, the 1/3 who FLEE in Rev. 12:17 {the Woman/Israel} are PROTECTED and Satan/Dragon can't get at them, but he other 2/3 do what ? THEY REFUSE TO REPENT !! So this Remnant CAN NOT BE THEM can it ? Because the Scripture clearly says they keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus.
But you see, this proves he Pre tribulation rapture, so have to avoid these points. NATURALLY.

Paul is an Israelite but Not a Jew is He going to be save if the Church only made up of Jews and Gentiles?

And where did you get 1/3 figure of Jews who Repent?

Revealing Times · Apr 6, 2019

Ronald said:
Proof of this is seen when one identifies the events as the same. For instance the great earthquake (which moves the earth out of its place, a worldwide earthquake) is described in Rec. 6:12 and Rev. 16:18. It is the same one, shown in a different vantage point.

These clearly aren't the same events brother. The reason most people say that is the Book of Revelation {BoR} timeline is confusing, look at my post #6 and I lay out the timeline of the BoR.

Ronald said:
They 144,000 Jews are chosen and sealed (chapter 7)before anything harm comes to the earth, sea or trees ( vs. 3). That tell you no events in chapter 6 have happened yet. Flip over to chapter 14 and it shows you a different vantage point of these 144j with Jesus. Notice in vs. 6 and 7 an angel preaching the gospel to the world warning them that the hour/time has come for judgment. That implies judgment up to that point (if it's chronological, has not happened!

The Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast, the First Four Seals are opened at basically the SAME TIME, thus the Beast is released to go forth for 42 MONTHS !! Then the 5th Seal testifies of the DEATHS that will come at his hand, the 6th Seal is just God announcing SUPERNATURALLY that His Wrath has come upon Mankind. All of these 6 Seals basically happen at the same time. The Jews {144 k} are Fleeing Judea like Jesus told/warned them they must do.

So in Chapter 7, God HOLDS UP the Trumpet Judgments that hits the EARTH, TREES & SEAS. That is what the Angel is ordered ro do, hurt not the Earth, Trees nor the Seas, thus its clear, Rev. 7 comes between the time the Seals are Opened {The Anti-Christ is RELEASED to go forth Conquering and killing} and the Trumpet Judgments are Sounded in Rev. 8. The 144 K is just a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL or the 1/3 of the Jews who Repent, they are Fleeing to Petra/Bozrah in Rev. 7. The Multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation means they came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation, not the 70th Week Tribulation. Jesus told those Martyrs they must wait until their fellow brothers had been killed just as they were.

Rev. 14 as does Rev. 19, covers the Full 7 years of the 70th Week. The BoR is not in chronological Order. Rev. 6 is the Opening of the Seals, the GOING FORTH covers 42 months. So he is released, Israel Flees Judea, God orders the Trumpet Judgments to be held up until Israel are safe in the Petra/Bozrah area of Southern Jordan. Judgment starts with the First Seal and runs through the 7th Vial.

Ronald said:
I believe the LAST TRUMPET (as spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 & 1 Thes. 4:16,17), which is the time of our resurrection ( rapture), is the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15.

Paul was not speaking about the Trumps of Revelation, but about the Trumpet of Jesus {see Rev. 4:1} where he sounds or REVERBERATES a call unto us that only we can hear, thus the Dead arise, and then those of us who are alive and remain are Raptured to be with Jesus.

The LAST TRUMP is actually in reference to the Feast of Trumpets, let me break it down.

The Leviticus 23 Feasts show us the WHOLE HISTORY of Israel & the Church.

Spring Feasts Fulfilled by Jesus.

1.) Feast of Passover = Jesus' blood covers our sins. FULFILLED.
2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread = Jesus was without sin. FULFILLED.
3.) Feast of First-fruits = Jesus was the First fruits of the Grave. FULFILLED.

The Harvest was ALL ALONE on the Calendar, all unto itself.

4.) Feast of Weeks/Harvest/Pentecost.

We are Harvesting Souls for Jesus as we speak. He is the Sower. We are still in the Pentecost or Harvest and the Harvest always lasted until what ? The Feast of Trumpets sounded signifying that the Harvest was OVER and that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle were NIGH AT HAND.

Fall Feasts

5.) Feast of Trumpets, this did nothing much, except announce things. The Last Trump announced that the Harvest was over and that Atonement was Nigh at Hand. {Will be Fulfilled when Jesus calls the Church home, it is called the Rapture.}

6.) Feast of Atonement, who needs to Atone ? Israel's eyes will be opened by God only after the FULLNESS of the Gentiles has come in {Rapture}, then the Two-witnesses come BEFORE the Day of the Lord {Malachi 4:5} and turns Israel back unto God {1/3} thus they Repent/Atone.

7.) Feast of Tabernacle, to Tabernacle with God means to DWELL with God, and where does Jesus rule from ? Jerusalem for 1000 years. God Dwells {Tabernacles} with Israel.

The LAST TRUMP has nothing to do with the Revelation Judgment Trumpets.

The Trumpet of Rev. 11 = the 3rd Woe or ALL 7 Vials. It really happens in Rev. 16. It however is surely not the Rapture.

Ronald said:
This event can also be seen in Rev. 7:9. Examine it for yourself, many things happen at this time. Read Rev. 11:15-19. Also this is the point at which the seven bowls or God's wrath are released.

Rev. 7:9 is speaking about the Church Age Saints. Jesus clearly stated we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION.

Revealing Times · Apr 6, 2019

pasifika said:
Paul is an Israelite but Not a Jew is He going to be save if the Church only made up of Jews and Gentiles?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in {Rapture}.

The IN PART means Jews will be blinded until the Rapture but only IN PART..........Meaning there will be Jews along the way like Peter and Paul WHO SEE, because they are not BLINDED............The IN PART means what it says. So lets say 95 percent of the Jews REJECT Jesus, that means 5 percent, like Peter, Paul and John ACCEPT him throughout the Church Age, they will be Raptured to Heaven with the Church.

The Jews will only SEE after the Rapture as per then turning back unto God as a NATION !!

pasifika said:
And where did you get 1/3 figure of Jews who Repent?

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 6, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
revelation was written about 66 under Nero
he was the sixth head
representing the sixth caesar who was then
but it's not physically impossible that somehow Josephus is borrowing material from johns revelation

Wonder if there is a way to relate the seals, trumpets and bowls of Revelation to 1st century Israel, Judea and Jerusalem. [I already view 1st Jerusalem as the Great City in Revelation]

These verses were written 40yrs prior to 70ad were they not?
They say a picture or video can be worth a 1000 words. Look at the videos at the end of the post where it shows what was going on in Israel and Judea.

Vespasian and his son Titus are shown together until Nero died. Then Vespasian heard of Nero's death and returned to Rome leaving Titus in charge.
I hope to 1 day combine all the 3 videos in 1 [there is suppose to be a 4th]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
6 “Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles<4171> and rumors<189> of battles. No be seeing ye be being troubled<2360> for it is binding to becoming<1096>,
but not as yet<3768> the end<5056>.
Mark 13:
7 “Wenever yet ye should be hearing battles and rumors of battles, be seeing no be be being troubled<2360> for is being to be becoming,
but not as yet the end<5056>
Luke 21:
9 “Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and commotions/tulmuts<181>, no ye may be being terrified<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming ,
but not immediately the end<5056>.”

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS:
Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
================================
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_theological.html

"And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against the Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place after their plot against our Saviour. For it was not before it, but afterwards from that day to this that God turned their feasts into mourning, despoiled them of their famous mother-city, and destroyed the holy Temple therein when Titus and Vespasian were Emperors of Rome, so that they could no longer go up to keep their feasts and sacred meetings. I need not say that a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord has overtaken them all, in return for their rejection of the Word of God; since with one voice they refused Him, so He refuses them." (AD 310s - Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica, X)
================================
.....................

.....................

pasifika · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in {Rapture}.

The IN PART meas Jews will be blinded until the Rapture but only IN PART..........Meaning there will be Jews along the way like Peter and Paul WHO SEE, because they are not BLINDED.....IN PART means what it says. So of 95 percent o the Jews REJECT Jesus, that means 5 percent, like Peter, Paul and John ACCEPT him.

The Jews will only SEE after the Rapture.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Hello, Romans 11: 25 refers to Israel (Jews included) when it talks about Jews that only part of Israel...isn't the Jews descended from Judah, BUT Jacob has other 11 sons so when the passage talks about Israel meaning All 12 tribes included ie: Judah, Reuben, Gad etc see Rev 7 all tribes sealed.
So the Church cannot be made up from a part of Israel and Gentiles because some will miss out like Paul He's from tribe of Benjamin Romans 11.
So if you say that Rapture is meant by Romans 11:25 where it says "...Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the FULL NUMBER of Gentiles come in"....and if the meaning of "full number" in this verse Total or complete number, how can you explain then 1Corins15:51-52 Paul speaking to this Gentiles church that...verse 51 " We will not all asleep, but we will All be changed in a flash in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST TRUMPET...this shows some gentIles still around the tribulation..also in 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, shows Gentiles still around on the earth up to coming of the Lord in the clouds..

Revealing Times · Apr 6, 2019

pasifika said:
Hello, Romans 11: 25 refers to Israel (Jews included) when it talks about Jews that only part of Israel...isn't the Jews descended from Judah, BUT Jacob has other 11 sons so when the passage talks about Israel meaning All 12 tribes included ie: Judah, Reuben, Gad etc see Rev 7 all tribes sealed.
So the Church cannot be made up from a part of Israel and Gentiles because some will miss out like Paul He's from tribe of Benjamin Romans 11.

After the 10 Tribes were take away Israel had ALL THE TRIBES SEED in Judea, because people from every tribe lived in Jerusalem, so there is no such thing as LOST TRIBES per se. Seed from every tribe are now called Jews.

This s how people go down wrong paths, like Armstrong did.

God said what He said and meant what He spoke. Israel was BLINDED but only IN PART, the Jews started the Gentile Churches. We still have Messianic Jews, BUT.....THE VAST MAJORITY, don't believe on Jesus. After the Rapture {even of SOME Jews....thus they were blinded IN PART} the Jews will be sent the Two-witnesses and a 1/3 will turn to Jesus and 2/3 will not.

I can only explain it.....

Just_a_Christian · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
I don't do "TAGS" so I would have t look it up. I don't follow others doctrines, I follow Jesus/scriptures. Jesus Raptures the Church, then after he Marries the Church he returns with the Bride to earth 7 years later. Whatever you want to call it is up to you guys, I just read the scriptures, and have been preaching such over 30 years.

You've been preaching over thirty years, I'd guesstimate you'd be 45 conservatively, and you've never heard of premelinealism? I find that very difficult to believe, that is unless you've been preaching in a very isolated environment.... having access to the web eliminates that possibility though. You say you don't do "TAGS", whatever you mean by that, but you know of and apparently believe in a "rapture". The "rapture" is purely and totally a manmade term; it is no where in scripture. Regardless, premelinealism is the belief that Christ will return here and establish an "Earthly" kingdom and rule here over it for 1000 yrs., or a melineam.

mister rogers · Apr 6, 2019

Depends on how it and the rest of Bible prophecy is understood. I've lately been quite convinced of the mostly (not full) preterist view of Revelation. Everything up to ch. 19 being fulfilled 1st century. The 1000 years of ch. 20 could be the entire Church age. Very symbolic book. Some of the wording is also similar to Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled. I still leave room for correction though. It is interesting that Israel is a nation again, and there's a growing number there of Christian Jews. Never been convinced of a pre-trib rapture though. Kinda caught between the amillenial and historic premillenial views.

mister rogers · Apr 6, 2019

It is interesting too that John was told the things would "shortly come to pass".

gideon123 · Apr 6, 2019

Revelations is difficult to interpret, especially if you are reading alone. It is advisable to have a knowledgeable Pastor, or to use a reference book written by a Christian with a balanced point of view. BTW, it is not easy to find people with balanced points of view about Revelations.

My 'litmus test' ... is when the Jews re-build the Temple. As someone else said, the Third Temple. That is the clearest sign that I can think of. I cannot imagine how the Third Temple and the Dome Of The Rock could co-exist side-by-side on such a small piece of ground. I just dont see how it is possible. And maybe thats the point ... coexistence is not possible on human terms.

Please remember that Muslims also have their own version of Revelations, but they call it by a different name. Their version comes from interpretations of the Quran. In their version, a great war starts when Medina is threatened (Saudi Arabia) and trouble breaks out in Constantinople (Turkey).

Blessings!

Revealing Times · Apr 6, 2019

Just_a_Christian said:
You've been preaching over thirty years, I'd guesstimate you'd be 45 conservatively, and you've never heard of premelinealism? I find that very difficult to believe, that is unless you've been preaching in a very isolated environment.... having access to the web eliminates that possibility though. You say you don't do "TAGS", whatever you mean by that, but you know of and apparently believe in a "rapture". The "rapture" is purely and totally a manmade term; it is no where in scripture. Regardless, premelinealism is the belief that Christ will return here and establish an "Earthly" kingdom and rule here over it for 1000 yrs., or a melineam.

Hearing about something and studying what it means is two different things. I place no value on tags like that, I think its just people overthinking things.They have Pre this, post this, dispen that, it is just not worth my time. I am Pre tribulation but that is a simple point counter point. I can write the whole book of Revelation as per its meanings in one post. There thus is no reason to explain my understandings, it's there for all to see. My philosophy is God's Holy Word.

The Rapture is not MAN MADE, it comes from the Latin word Rapio, which was translated from the Greek word Harpazo, which Paul wrote. Lets not be disingenuous here. As soon as you asked that question how did I know you couldn't possible see the obvious Rapture ? Because that is the way they all operate, its likened unto Alinsky tactics so I don't get it.

You might as well not even try against me on the book of Revelation or the Rapture. Jesus does rule from earth 1000 years, but that is obvious, we don't need tags for it do we ?

Revealing Times · Apr 6, 2019

mister rogers said:
It is interesting too that John was told the things would "shortly come to pass".

Which is why we must STUDY, STUDY, STUDY and the PRAY....You have moved towards something such as the preterist view that you say means all of Revelation has happened pretty much, all because of ONE VERSE it seems, but you don't understand that ONE VERSE is not in the proper context do you?

The word SHORTLY has two Greek Words behind it, not one.

The Word "SHORTLY" is a mistranslation. Behind that word is TWO NUMBERS which stand for TWO Greek words, EN {a set or fixed position in TIME}.....

#1722 ἐν en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state),
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

And the Greek word TACHOS {where we get the English word Tachometer from}

#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os}
1) quickness, speed

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So in reality, it is not about something SHORTLY COMING TO PASS !! It is about the book of Revelation, these things will come to pass and at a SET POINT IN TIME {at the Fathers choosing Jesus will return} and then Jesus will come IN HASTE....SPEEDILY...or QUICKLY or in a SHORT TIME FRAME {Zoom} hence SHORTLY was used seeing as the Olde English had odd phrasing patterns to say the least.

EN {Fixed point in time} TACHOS {Jesus will return in a flash, in haste, speedily etc. etc.} Only the Father knows the time of Jesus' return, so Jesus denotes it as at a FIXED POINT IN TIME, then when the Father tells him to go get the Bride he will come in haste. ZOOM !!

It has nothing to do with the Book of Revelation and those things coming to pass SHORTLY !!

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said: ↑
I don't do "TAGS" so I would have t look it up. I don't follow others doctrines, I follow Jesus/scriptures. Jesus Raptures the Church, then after he Marries the Church he returns with the Bride to earth 7 years later. Whatever you want to call it is up to you guys, I just read the scriptures, and have been preaching such over 30 years.

Just_a_Christian said:
You've been preaching over thirty years, I'd guesstimate you'd be 45 conservatively, and you've never heard of premelinealism? I find that very difficult to believe, that is unless you've been preaching in a very isolated environment.... having access to the web eliminates that possibility though. You say you don't do "TAGS", whatever you mean by that, but you know of and apparently believe in a "rapture". The "rapture" is purely and totally a manmade term; it is no where in scripture. Regardless, premelinealism is the belief that Christ will return here and establish an "Earthly" kingdom and rule here over it for 1000 yrs., or a melineam.

Only took Jesus about 3 and half years to preach. Not sure how many years the Apostles preached before 70ad

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_theological.html
==============================
Jesus' Birth, Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension in Revelation.

Micah 5:2
2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, little to be among the chiefs of Judah!
From thee to Me He cometh forth -- to become Ruler in Israel,
And His goings forth are of old, From days of antiquity/eon.

Matthew 1:21
and she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.’
Luke 2:7
7 and she brought forth her Son — the first-born, and wrapped Him up, and laid Him down in the manger, because there was not for them a place in the guest-chamber.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth<5088> a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.
================================
Luk 3:23
And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

John Chapts 14 thru 17 verse by verse

John 17:11
And not still I am in the world, and these in the world are,
and I toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........[Revelation 12:5]

Acts 1
9 And these things having said — they beholding —
He was taken up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight;

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.
and caught away was her Child proV <4314> the GOD and His throne,

Orthodox Jewish Bible
Daniel 7:13
13 I was beholding in visions of the night, and, hinei,
one like a Bar Enosh (Ben Adam, T.N. i.e., Moshiach) came with the clouds of Shomayim, and came to the Atik Yomin (Ancient of Days, T.N. i.e., Hashem), and before Him He was brought.

CGL1023 · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
The book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order at all. But we are of course still in the Church Age, which is chapters 2 and 3, in Rev. 4:1 we see the Rapture of the Church. So we are at the end of chapter 3.

No Seals have been opened, the Anti-Christ is the First Seal !!

Chapter 1 = Jesus Glorified {Write the things which you HAVE SEEN}

Chapters 2 and 3 is the Church Age. {Write the things WHICH ARE}

Chapter 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened. {Things HEREAFTER}

Chapter 6 is where the Seals are opened at the 3.5 year mark.

Chapter 7 is the 144,000 {All Israel} being protected as they flee, and the Church is shown in Heaven just after the Seals have been opened, they came out of the 2000 year Tribulation.

Chapter 8 is the first four Trumpet Judgments.

Chapter 9 is the First Two Woes.

Chapters 15&16 is the 7 Vials, they are the 3rd Woe.

Chapter 20 is about the 1000 year reign and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Chapters 21 and 22 is the ever after and the New Jerusalem.

That ends the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation. Now to the Parenthetical Citation Chapters of the book of Revelation or chapters that happen in the midst of these chapters above.

Chapter 10 is a flash forward to the end.

Chapter 11 starts 75 days before the Beast comes to power, the Two-witnesses preach Christ Crucified and Israel repents {1/3 do} then the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, 75 days before the 7th Vial where the Beast dies, thus both have 1260 days in their "OFFICES".

Chapter 12 starts with the First Seal, the Dragon chases Israel into the Wilderness {144 k}.

Chapter 13 starts with the First Seal, the Beast arises to power !!

Chapter 14 covers the full 7 years, it's the Rapture {v. 14} and it also shows the Wheat {Israel/144k on Zion} and the Tares {Wicked in the Winepress} both being Harvested.

Chapter 17 starts at the First Seal, its the False Religions being wiped out by the Kings and the Beast, there is no room for any other Gods but him, he must be WORSHIPPED as God !!

Chapter 18 is this Whole Evil World {Babylon} being Judged, it starts at the First Seal and runs through the 7th Vial. Babylon = the Confused who follow Satan.

Chapter 19 is like chapter 14, it runs the full 7 years. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, we Marry the Lamb, then return on White Horses {as Conquerors} and we then defeat the Wicked Tares at Armageddon, by watching Jesus speak Victory.

As you can see, the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation is just like Daniel, it is not in order at all.

CGL1023 · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
The book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order at all. But we are of course still in the Church Age, which is chapters 2 and 3, in Rev. 4:1 we see the Rapture of the Church. So we are at the end of chapter 3.

No Seals have been opened, the Anti-Christ is the First Seal !!

Chapter 1 = Jesus Glorified {Write the things which you HAVE SEEN}

Chapters 2 and 3 is the Church Age. {Write the things WHICH ARE}

Chapter 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened. {Things HEREAFTER}

Chapter 6 is where the Seals are opened at the 3.5 year mark.

Chapter 7 is the 144,000 {All Israel} being protected as they flee, and the Church is shown in Heaven just after the Seals have been opened, they came out of the 2000 year Tribulation.

Chapter 8 is the first four Trumpet Judgments.

Chapter 9 is the First Two Woes.

Chapters 15&16 is the 7 Vials, they are the 3rd Woe.

Chapter 20 is about the 1000 year reign and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Chapters 21 and 22 is the ever after and the New Jerusalem.

That ends the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation. Now to the Parenthetical Citation Chapters of the book of Revelation or chapters that happen in the midst of these chapters above.

Chapter 10 is a flash forward to the end.

Chapter 11 starts 75 days before the Beast comes to power, the Two-witnesses preach Christ Crucified and Israel repents {1/3 do} then the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, 75 days before the 7th Vial where the Beast dies, thus both have 1260 days in their "OFFICES".

Chapter 12 starts with the First Seal, the Dragon chases Israel into the Wilderness {144 k}.

Chapter 13 starts with the First Seal, the Beast arises to power !!

Chapter 14 covers the full 7 years, it's the Rapture {v. 14} and it also shows the Wheat {Israel/144k on Zion} and the Tares {Wicked in the Winepress} both being Harvested.

Chapter 17 starts at the First Seal, its the False Religions being wiped out by the Kings and the Beast, there is no room for any other Gods but him, he must be WORSHIPPED as God !!

Chapter 18 is this Whole Evil World {Babylon} being Judged, it starts at the First Seal and runs through the 7th Vial. Babylon = the Confused who follow Satan.

Chapter 19 is like chapter 14, it runs the full 7 years. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, we Marry the Lamb, then return on White Horses {as Conquerors} and we then defeat the Wicked Tares at Armageddon, by watching Jesus speak Victory.

As you can see, the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation is just like Daniel, it is not in order at all.

The points you mentioned are also my understanding. Good post. Thanks.

Ronald · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
These clearly aren't the same events brother. The reason most people say that is the Book of Revelation {BoR} timeline is confusing, look at my post #6 and I lay out the timeline of the BoR.

The Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast, the First Four Seals are opened at basically the SAME TIME, thus the Beast is released to go forth for 42 MONTHS !! Then the 5th Seal testifies of the DEATHS that will come at his hand, the 6th Seal is just God announcing SUPERNATURALLY that His Wrath has come upon Mankind. All of these 6 Seals basically happen at the same time. The Jews {144 k} are Fleeing Judea like Jesus told/warned them they must do.

So in Chapter 7, God HOLDS UP the Trumpet Judgments that hits the EARTH, TREES & SEAS. That is what the Angel is ordered ro do, hurt not the Earth, Trees nor the Seas, thus its clear, Rev. 7 comes between the time the Seals are Opened {The Anti-Christ is RELEASED to go forth Conquering and killing} and the Trumpet Judgments are Sounded in Rev. 8. The 144 K is just a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL or the 1/3 of the Jews who Repent, they are Fleeing to Petra/Bozrah in Rev. 7. The Multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation means they came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation, not the 70th Week Tribulation. Jesus told those Martyrs they must wait until their fellow brothers had been killed just as they were.

Rev. 14 as does Rev. 19, covers the Full 7 years of the 70th Week. The BoR is not in chronological Order. Rev. 6 is the Opening of the Seals, the GOING FORTH covers 42 months. So he is released, Israel Flees Judea, God orders the Trumpet Judgments to be held up until Israel are safe in the Petra/Bozrah area of Southern Jordan. Judgment starts with the First Seal and runs through the 7th Vial.

Paul was not speaking about the Trumps of Revelation, but about the Trumpet of Jesus {see Rev. 4:1} where he sounds or REVERBERATES a call unto us that only we can hear, thus the Dead arise, and then those of us who are alive and remain are Raptured to be with Jesus.

The LAST TRUMP is actually in reference to the Feast of Trumpets, let me break it down.

The Leviticus 23 Feasts show us the WHOLE HISTORY of Israel & the Church.

Spring Feasts Fulfilled by Jesus.

1.) Feast of Passover = Jesus' blood covers our sins. FULFILLED.
2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread = Jesus was without sin. FULFILLED.
3.) Feast of First-fruits = Jesus was the First fruits of the Grave. FULFILLED.

The Harvest was ALL ALONE on the Calendar, all unto itself.

4.) Feast of Weeks/Harvest/Pentecost.

We are Harvesting Souls for Jesus as we speak. He is the Sower. We are still in the Pentecost or Harvest and the Harvest always lasted until what ? The Feast of Trumpets sounded signifying that the Harvest was OVER and that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle were NIGH AT HAND.

Fall Feasts

5.) Feast of Trumpets, this did nothing much, except announce things. The Last Trump announced that the Harvest was over and that Atonement was Nigh at Hand. {Will be Fulfilled when Jesus calls the Church home, it is called the Rapture.}

6.) Feast of Atonement, who needs to Atone ? Israel's eyes will be opened by God only after the FULLNESS of the Gentiles has come in {Rapture}, then the Two-witnesses come BEFORE the Day of the Lord {Malachi 4:5} and turns Israel back unto God {1/3} thus they Repent/Atone.

7.) Feast of Tabernacle, to Tabernacle with God means to DWELL with God, and where does Jesus rule from ? Jerusalem for 1000 years. God Dwells {Tabernacles} with Israel.

The LAST TRUMP has nothing to do with the Revelation Judgment Trumpets.

The Trumpet of Rev. 11 = the 3rd Woe or ALL 7 Vials. It really happens in Rev. 16. It however is surely not the Rapture.

Rev. 7:9 is speaking about the Church Age Saints. Jesus clearly stated we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION.

I have quite a different view. I am not a Pre-tribber (although this could take place if the trumpets were all blown quickly before th events took place). I do not adhere to a 70th week of Daniel view. No, I think the angel gave 70 weeks notice concerning Christ's First Coming. He got sacrificed during the Middle of the 70th week. Therefore no gap was intended _ why even mention 70 weeks if it was to be suspended for 2000 years? Prophecies don't get interrupted, they are precise.
As you may figure, I adhere to a Mid-trib/ Pre-wrath view. AND the GT is 42 months, not 7 years
See you on the other side.

pasifika · Apr 6, 2019

Revealing Times said:
After the 10 Tribes were take away Israel had ALL THE TRIBES SEED in Judea, because people from every tribe lived in Jerusalem, so there is no such thing as LOST TRIBES per se. Seed from every tribe are now called Jews.

This s how people go down wrong paths, like Armstrong did.

God said what He said and meant what He spoke. Israel was BLINDED but only IN PART, the Jews started the Gentile Churches. We still have Messianic Jews, BUT.....THE VAST MAJORITY, don't believe on Jesus. After the Rapture {even of SOME Jews....thus they were blinded IN PART} the Jews will be sent the Two-witnesses and a 1/3 will turn to Jesus and 2/3 will not.

I can only explain it.....

Hello, seed from every tribes (12 tribes) of Israel now called Jews? So we can say referring to the 12 tribes "The 12 tribes of Jews??? Any reference for this?

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 6, 2019

Ronald said:
I have quite a different view. I am not a Pre-tribber (although this could take place if the trumpets were all blown quickly before th events took place). I do not adhere to a 70th week of Daniel view. No, I think the angel gave 70 weeks notice concerning Christ's First Coming. He got sacrificed during the Middle of the 70th week. Therefore no gap was intended _ why even mention 70 weeks if it was to be suspended for 2000 years? Prophecies don't get interrupted, they are precise.
As you may figure, I adhere to a Mid-trib/ Pre-wrath view. AND the GT is 42 months, not 7 years
See you on the other side.

Hello and good post.
The "Daniel Gap" [and Daniel in particular] is a hot topic on CF.
I have a poll thread on it at this link for those interested:

Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

LittleLambofJesus said:
It looks like the 70 weeks of Daniel is a popular topic in Christianity today, so I thought I would create one and include a poll. I also am interested in discussing this.

LittleLambofJesus said:
‘Seventy<7657> sevens <7620>
7657 shib`iym. shib-eem' multiple of 7651; seventy:--seventy, threescore and ten (+ -teen).
7620 shabuwa` shaw-boo'-ah or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of 7650 as a denominative of 7651; literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):--seven, week.

are decreed<2852> upon thy people<5971>,
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
2852 chathak khaw-thak' a primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree:--determine.
5971 `am am from 6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively, a flock:--folk, men, nation, people.

and upon city-of<5892> holiness<6944> of thee
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
5892 `iyr eer or (in the plural) par {awr}; or ayar (Judges 10:4) {aw-yar'}; from 5782 a city (a place guarded by waking or a watch) in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post):--Ai (from margin), city, court (from margin), town.
6944 qodesh ko'-desh from 6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity:--consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

to shut up/refrain<3607> the transgression<6588>,
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
3607 kala' kaw-law' a primitive root; to restrict, by act (hold back or in) or word (prohibit):--finish, forbid, keep (back), refrain, restrain, retain, shut up, be stayed, withhold.
6588 pesha` peh'-shah from 6586; a revolt (national, moral or religious):--rebellion, sin, transgression, trespass.

and to seal-up <2856>[finish<8552>] of sins<2403>,
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
2856 chatham khaw-tham' a primitive root; to close up; especially to seal:--make an end, mark, seal (up), stop.
2403 chatta'ah khat-taw-aw' or chattacth {khat-tawth'}; from 2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender:--punishment (of sin), purifying(-fication for sin), sin(-ner, offering).

and to cover/make-atonement <3722> iniquity<5771>,
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
3722 kaphar kaw-far' a primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:-- appease, make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile(-liation).
5771 `avon aw-vone' or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5 (7)) {aw-vone'}; from 5753; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil:--fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.

and to bring in<935> righteousness<6664> age-during<5769>,
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
935 bow' bo a primitive root; to go or come (in a wide variety of applications):--abide, apply, attain, X be, befall, + besiege, bring (forth, in, into, to pass)...........
6664 tsedeq tseh'-dek from 6663; the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity:--X even, (X that which is altogether) just(-ice), ((un-))right(-eous) (cause, -ly, - ness).
5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal,..........

and to seal up<2856> vision and prophet<5030>,
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
2856 chatham khaw-tham' a primitive root; to close up; especially to seal:--make an end, mark, seal (up), stop.
5030 nabiy' naw-bee' from 5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man:--prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.

and to anoint<4886> holy<6944> of holies<6944>.
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
4886 mashach maw-shakh' a primitive root; to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by implication, to consecrate; also to paint:--anoint, paint.
6944 qodesh ko'-desh from 6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity:--consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"

No
23 vote(s)
47.9%
Yes
23 vote(s)
47.9%
I don't know
1 vote(s)
2.1%
Other
1 vote(s)
2.1%

How far into Revelation are we now?

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