Is there a Biblical and/or Historic Church defense of on demand abortion?

redleghunter said:

Once again this is a bizarre defense.

If a king tells you to slay your entire family to prove your loyalty would you obey?

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That's exactly what the passages are taking about.

redleghunter said:

Speaking of changing subjects...what evil has the child in the womb committed to warrant the death penalty?

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There is no natural justice in the world. Over half of all zygotes fail to make it to birth naturally. What's that raw deal about? Half of the 10 million children who die annually in the world are from Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
Factors associated to infant mortality in Sub-Saharan Africa - NCBI - NIH

SkyWriting said:

There is no natural justice in the world. Over half of all zygotes fail to make it to birth naturally. What's that raw deal about? Half of the 10 million children who die annually in the world are from Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
Factors associated to infant mortality in Sub-Saharan Africa - NCBI - NIH

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Therefore what?

FenderTL5 said:

I understand, but it is still prohibited in the teaching of the Apostles (previously quoted, also see Acts 2:42).

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The acting will of The Father is the local workings of government.
What Does the Bible Say About Government?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Therefore what?

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There is no natural justice in the world. You don't have to be guilty of any human laws to die a horrible and painful death.

redleghunter said:

Is there a Biblical and/or Historic Church defense of on demand abortion?

I wanted to start this to strip the politics out. Are there pro-choice Christians who can positively answer the OP question?

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Local Laws apply, per scripture.

Exodus 18
20 Teach them the statutes and laws, and show them the way to live and the work they must do. 21 Furthermore, select capablemen from among the people— God-fearing, trustworthy men who are averse to dishonest gain. Appoint them over the people as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. 22 Have these men judge the people at all times. Then they can bring you any major issue, but all minor cases they can judge on their own, so that your load may be lightened as they share it with you.

redleghunter said:

Is there a Biblical and/or Historic Church defense of on demand abortion?

I wanted to start this to strip the politics out. Are there pro-choice Christians who can positively answer the OP question??

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Scriptural law is obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Local law rules.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience

redleghunter said:

Is there a Biblical defense of on demand abortion?

I wanted to start this to strip the politics out.
Are there pro-choice Christians who can positively answer the OP question?

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God's will is carried out through local government.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,

HTacianas said:

There is nothing in the history of the Church that even remotely supports abortion. It is universally condemned as murder by every Christian who ever commented on it.

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Except Paul, who defers to government and order:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

SkyWriting said:

Except Paul, who defers to government and order:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

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If/When government requires that you get an abortion, you may have a point worth considering.
As it stands, with abortion you have a choice and that choice includes not getting an abortion and following the teaching of the Apostles as passed down in word and letter.
To suggest that quoted passage makes something that is a civic option into a scriptural requirement is asinine.

FenderTL5 said:

If/When government requires that you get an abortion, you may have a point worth considering. As it stands, with abortion you have a choice and that choice includes not getting an abortion and following the teaching of the Apostles as passed down in word and letter. To suggest that quoted passage makes something that is a civic option into a scriptural requirement is asinine.

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Yes, that would.

HTacianas said: ↑
There is nothing in the history of the Church that even remotely supports abortion. It is universally condemned as murder by every Christian who ever commented on it.

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At His trial Jesus stated that local government has power over Him, granted by The Father above. If local law allowed for the Christ to be crucified, then Jesus also stands behind laws that allow for abortions and He supports legal choices.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Matthew 12:25 - Jesus knew their thoughts and replied, "Any kingdom divided by civil war is doomed. A town or family splintered by feuding will fall apart.

Titus 3
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. 9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

SkyWriting said:

Except Paul, who defers to government and order:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

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The government allows people, Christian or otherwise, to worship Satan. But Christians are strictly prohibited from doing that. The government allows people to commit adultery...

HTacianas said:

The government allows people, Christian or otherwise, to worship Satan. But Christians are strictly prohibited from doing that. The government allows people to commit adultery...

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exactly.

HTacianas said:

The government allows people, Christian or otherwise, to worship Satan. But Christians are strictly prohibited from doing that. The government allows people to commit adultery...

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So did Jesus- not judge an adultress:
16He said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” 17The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’;18for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.”

So did Jesus- not judge a prostitute:
10Then Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?” 11“No one,Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

God's will is worked though local government.

SkyWriting said:

So did Jesus- not judge an adultress:
16He said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” 17The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’;18for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.”

So did Jesus- not judge a prostitute:
10Then Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?” 11“No one,Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

God's will is worked though local government.

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So it is your position that adultery is okay among Christians?

SkyWriting said:

So did Jesus- not judge an adultress:
16He said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” 17The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’;18for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.”

So did Jesus- not judge a prostitute:
10Then Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?” 11“No one,Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

God's will is worked though local government.

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Did Jesus tell them to keep doing it?

FenderTL5 said:

exactly.

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God's Grace is through forgiveness, not God's laws written in ink or stone.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

HTacianas said:

So it is your position that adultery is okay among Christians?

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My position is that I am not qualified to judge the actions of others. Even Christians.

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

When you have honed these skills, then you can judge me and others.

FenderTL5 said:

Did Jesus tell them to keep doing it?

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Jesus mentions no "It" as you have imagined He did.

He refers to actions they know are wrong to be doing
but Jesus allows people to do what they think is right.

James 4
6But He gives a greater grace. Therefore itsays, “GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.” 7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

13Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” 16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.17Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

SkyWriting said:

My position is that I am not qualified to judge the actions of others. Even Christians.

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

When you have honed these skills, then you can judge me and others.

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My position is that abortion has always been condemned by Christianity. I do not sit in judgment of anyone, but if someone told me it's perfectly fine for a Christian to sacrifice their children to Moloch I would disagree with them.