Why would a person claim that all sins are equal?

We are all guilty of breaking the whole law.

W2L said:

We are all guilty of breaking the whole law.

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The Old Covenant Law?
Or the New Covenant Law?

I don't believe we are under the Old Covenant anymore.
The New Covenant began with Christ's death, and the laws or commands associated with the Old Covenant were for Israel or for that Covenant. For surely we do not offer animal sacrifices as per the Law. This is where people get confused. They think that the Law of Moses is somehow in effect and that Jesus fulfilled it, and so we can live however we like now or that we should somewhat strive to live holy but we should not be overly concerned about it because Jesus paid for all future sin. But nothing could be further from the truth. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. After we are saved by God's grace through faith (by seeking forgiveness of our sins with the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing in His death, and resurrection on our behalf), we have to also continue in the Sanctification process (i.e. to live holy and to obey those commands that come from Jesus and His followers by the working of God and or the working of the Spirit).

Salvation is in both believing in the truth, and in Sanctification.

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Unbelievers are guilty of breaking all of the New Covenant laws. Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us in the Old Covenant, and His death began a New Covenant. Jesus's death and resurrection is able to clean our past slate. But if we sin again, we need to confess of our sins to the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven again (See 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9).

In order to have the blood of Jesus applied to your life (since after you believed), you have to walk in the light as He is in the light (See 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9).

Jason0047 said:

The Old Covenant Law?
Or the New Covenant Law?

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The commands of the Lord and His apostles.

W2L said:

The commands of the Lord and His apostles.

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Right, there is no doubt that we all have sinned as a part of our old life. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But Romans 3 is not talking about faithful believers in their present tense walk. It is saying how all unbelievers have sinned, and it is saying how all believers have sinned at one point in their past life. How so?

10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
(Romans 3:10-11).

So if there is none righteous (present tense), then there is none that understands (present tense) and there is none that seek after God (present tense). Surely you are not saying that all Christians today have no spiritual understanding and that they do not seek after God.

So Romans 3:10 cannot be referring to a believer's present walk with God. It is talking about their past old life and how all have sinned at one point in their old life. Jesus wipes the past slate clean by our seeking forgiveness with Him and by believing in His death, and resurrection, but we have to then continue to abide in the Lord's good ways after that. If not, we are not going to make it.

So while we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. the gift who is Jesus Christ):


So Scripture has to be harmonized.

Many misunderstand what Paul was fighting against. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Paul is not fighting against the necessity of Sanctification or "works of faith" that follow God's saving grace. Paul himself taught that a belief in the truth and Sanctification is a part of salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Paul himself said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Paul himself said "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Romans 8:13). Paul also said that one can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

So in conclusion:

Paul was fighting against "Works ALONE Salvationism" (That did not include God's grace through faith), and Paul was not fighting against the necessity of "works of faith" or "Sanctification" (Which is the next step or stage in the salvation process - after one is saved by God's grace through faith). James 2:24 says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (a belief alone). For James says he will show you his faith by his works (works of faith that follow a saving faith in Jesus) (and not works alone without God's grace) (See James 2:18).

Can you expand on how you interpret Acts 15 given what you said below.

Many misunderstand what Paul was fighting against. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

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Jason0047 said:

First, you need to understand that we are not under the 613 Laws given to Israel (i.e. the Law of Moses) contractually speaking. We are under a New Covenant with new commands. Yes, some of the Laws from the Old Law have been repeated in the New Covenant (New Contract), but we look to the New Testament primarily to obey the Lord, and not the Old Testament. But grumbling or complaining of the Israelites was a grievous sin in God's eyes. They thought they had it better when they were slaves to Pharaoh. This was wrong (of course).

Second, Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death" (Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).​

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." (Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.​

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).


Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

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What about the following passage.

Philippians 3:18-20
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Certainly appears to be other sins that condemn, i.e., gluttony and a worldly mindset.

Not sure how you would interpret the passage above?

klutedavid said:

What about the following passage.

Philippians 3:18-20
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Certainly appears to be other sins that condemn, i.e., gluttony and a worldly mindset.

Not sure how you would interpret the passage above?

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How does this passage help you? It speaks against the very idea of a sin (be a devil in the flesh) and yet still be saved type gospel. It is saying that the enemies of the cross are those who are worldly and whose God is their belly. We even see in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 a similar thing. They have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. They are unholy, without natural affection. Again, you said that you can live like the devil in the flesh and yet you are saved on a spiritual level. This does not seem to match up with what is taught in these pieces of Scripture; And these verses in Scripture are just the tip of the iceberg.

klutedavid said:

Can you expand on how you interpret Acts 15 given what you said below.

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To give a commentary on Acts 15 in light of what I said would be a lengthy and time consuming thing to do. I do not have time over the next few days to do this. The verses in Acts 15 I quoted line up with what I have said.

Jason0047 said:

How does this passage help you? It speaks against the very idea of a sin (be a devil in the flesh) and yet still be saved type gospel. It is saying that the enemies of the cross are those who are worldly and whose God is their belly. We even see in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 a similar thing. They have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. They are unholy, without natural affection. Again, you said that you can live like the devil in the flesh and yet you are saved on a spiritual level. This does not seem to match up with what is taught in these pieces of Scripture; And these verses in Scripture are just the tip of the iceberg.

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You need to include gluttony, worldliness, and every other deed of the flesh. The deeds of the flesh are legion.

You still do not understand what I have written.

Living in the flesh and that includes every passion and desire of the flesh, is not living according to the Spirit.

It does not matter what sins we wish to consider, it is whether we live in the flesh or the spirit.

Generating a list of sins to avoid is actually counter productive to the Christian life, people start avoiding specific sins and become fixated on specific sins.

We are not called out by Jesus to spend the rest of our Christian life battling our own fleshly desires, our own sinful nature. We are called to love others and in loving others, we find that the flesh is more subdued.

Whatever you think about, whatever you concentrate on in life, whatever is important to you. This will determine the type of person that you will become over time.

Do you love Jesus?

If you do love Jesus, then of course you must love the brethren. If you love others then there cannot be any darkness within you.

We are called to love others and that is the command and the penultimate ambition of every Christian.

God is love!

There is no fear of condemnation in loving others, love removes all fear. The law amplifies the problem; our flesh is the problem, our flesh is driven by self preoccupation. Love is not of the flesh, love is a gift from God.

No battle fought against the flesh has ever been victorious, one just gets an ever increasing realization of one's own unworthiness.

Jason0047 said:

To give a commentary on Acts 15 in light of what I said would be a lengthy and time consuming thing to do. I do not have time over the next few days to do this. The verses in Acts 15 I quoted line up with what I have said.

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I disagree with what you said.

In both Acts 15 and the letter to the Galatians, the issue was adding the law to the Christian life in order to be saved.

The mention of 'circumcision' in Acts and Galatians is a shorthand way of referring to the law. Paul calls the Jews the circumcised and Paul refers to the Gentiles as the uncircumcised.

We are saved by grace in the first instance and in the last instance of our Christian life.

klutedavid said:

You need to include gluttony, worldliness, and every other deed of the flesh. The deeds of the flesh are legion.

You still do not understand what I have written.

Living in the flesh and that includes every passion and desire of the flesh, is not living according to the Spirit.

It does not matter what sins we wish to consider, it is whether we live in the flesh or the spirit.

Generating a list of sins to avoid is actually counter productive to the Christian life, people start avoiding specific sins and become fixated on specific sins.

We are not called out by Jesus to spend the rest of our Christian life battling our own fleshly desires, our own sinful nature. We are called to love others and in loving others, we find that the flesh is more subdued.

Whatever you think about, whatever you concentrate on in life, whatever is important to you. This will determine the type of person that you will become over time.

Do you love Jesus?

If you do love Jesus, then of course you must love the brethren. If you love others then there cannot be any darkness within you.

We are called to love others and that is the command and the penultimate ambition of every Christian.

God is love!

There is no fear of condemnation in loving others, love removes all fear. The law amplifies the problem; our flesh is the problem, our flesh is driven by self preoccupation. Love is not of the flesh, love is a gift from God.

No battle fought against the flesh has ever been victorious, one just gets an ever increasing realization of one's own unworthiness.

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It seems like you are reading a different Bible than me.

The Bible says,

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them (Colossians 3:5-7).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:8).

13 "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).

26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." (Ephesians 4:26-29).

3 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:3-6).

"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;" (2 Peter 2:11).

"And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:21).

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).

4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:4-6).

"But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:8).

klutedavid said:

I disagree with what you said.

In both Acts 15 and the letter to the Galatians, the issue was adding the law to the Christian life in order to be saved.

The mention of 'circumcision' in Acts and Galatians is a shorthand way of referring to the law. Paul calls the Jews the circumcised and Paul refers to the Gentiles as the uncircumcised.

We are saved by grace in the first instance and in the last instance of our Christian life.

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Nowhere does Acts 15 address the "Moral Law" as being the problem. In fact, they were clarifying in what they were trying to say to the Gentiles before at another point.

"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts of the Apostles 15:20).

They were referring to "circumcision" as being necessary for salvation (Which is not a command given by Jesus and His followers) (But it was a necessary thing in the Old Covenant as a part of salvation - See Genesis 17:14). But "circumcision" is a command that no longer applies in the New Covenant. For Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). The council was saying that there was a certain sect of Pharisees that it was necessary to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses (Which are 613 commands (a contract as a whole) given to Israel).

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

The council did not say that these Pharisees were trying to get these Gentiles to follow the commands that came from Jesus Christ and His followers. There is a huge difference between the 613 laws given to Moses and the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. They are not the same commands. We are under a New Covenant, with new commands. You are lumping the Old Law with being in reference to all law or the Moral Law when this is not the case. They already said that the Gentiles were to abstain from fornication and idols (Which are Moral Laws).

Nowhere will you find any apostle after Christ's death speaking against what Jesus said in regards to the keeping of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not lie, etc.). On the contrary, they still taught in line with what Jesus said. 1 John 3:15 says that if you hate your brother you are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Side Note:

The Old Law contained many ceremonial laws that do not apply anymore. We do not sacrifice animals as per the Law. That is why they said not to follow the Law of Moses. The Moral Law that was repeated in the New Covenant is not the problem. Paul even says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

klutedavid said:

You need to include gluttony, worldliness, and every other deed of the flesh. The deeds of the flesh are legion.

You still do not understand what I have written.

Living in the flesh and that includes every passion and desire of the flesh, is not living according to the Spirit.

It does not matter what sins we wish to consider, it is whether we live in the flesh or the spirit.

Generating a list of sins to avoid is actually counter productive to the Christian life, people start avoiding specific sins and become fixated on specific sins.

We are not called out by Jesus to spend the rest of our Christian life battling our own fleshly desires, our own sinful nature. We are called to love others and in loving others, we find that the flesh is more subdued.

Whatever you think about, whatever you concentrate on in life, whatever is important to you. This will determine the type of person that you will become over time.

Do you love Jesus?

If you do love Jesus, then of course you must love the brethren. If you love others then there cannot be any darkness within you.

We are called to love others and that is the command and the penultimate ambition of every Christian.

God is love!

There is no fear of condemnation in loving others, love removes all fear. The law amplifies the problem; our flesh is the problem, our flesh is driven by self preoccupation. Love is not of the flesh, love is a gift from God.

No battle fought against the flesh has ever been victorious, one just gets an ever increasing realization of one's own unworthiness.

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Yes, God is love.
But we cannot define love on our own terms.
We have to define love according to the Bible.

Jesus (Who is God) says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
That is how we love God.

You said before that you can live like the devil in the flesh and yet be saved or righteous on a spiritual level because of a belief on Jesus.

Yet, the Bible says....

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8).

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24).

16 "These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
(Proverbs 6:16-19).

Somehow you think GOD has changed in regards to basic morality.
He hasn't. God is eternally good.

Jason0047 said:

King David committed adultery and murder. Was King David saved while he did these sins?
Some have suggested that one needs to practice these kinds of sins (as per a wrong interpretation on 1 John 3) in order to be separated from God (salvation wise) or to show that they never knew God. But the Bible does not define these kinds of sins in that way.

For according to the Bible, it only takes one act of adultery to be considered an adulterer and for it to destroy their own soul:

"The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10).

"Whoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding; He who does so destroys his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).​

For according to the Bible, it only takes one act of murder to be considered a murderer and to not have eternal life abiding in them.

16 "But if he strikes him with an iron implement, so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.
17 And if he strikes him with a stone in the hand, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.
18 Or if he strikes him with a wooden hand weapon, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death." (Numbers 35:16-18).

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).
​

Confession of sin to Jesus is the only way to be restored back (salvation wise) if one commits a grievous sin like murder or adultery (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). We are restored by God's grace. But we have to cooperate with God; Meaning, we have to keep ourselves in the love of God (See: Jude 1:21).


Side Note:

As for the degree of stealing you mentioned: While a child stealing a cookie from their family visiting their neighbor's house, vs. a man who kills and steals jewelry from off of them are surely different by degree of their sinfulness, they are still both grievous sins that can separate a person spiritually from God. Theft is mentioned as one of the sins where a person will not inherit the Kingdom of God within Scripture. So it does not matter about the degree of theft. Any level of stealing (even stealing a ballpoint pen that your job would not care about) is enough to send one to hell if they do not repent of it. Stealing is stealing. Yes, degrees of the sin of theft will effect a person differently in our society, but we do not guide our lives by the society we live in, but we guide our lives by the Word of God.

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I've still not caught up and read the thread - please forgive me.

But you're really missing my point. (And that's ok ... it just underscores the fact that we are looking at salvation from different points of view.)

Yours is a very legalistic interpretation. I may misunderstand you, but you're saying that God would condemn a child who loved Him and believed in Him if that child stole a cookie and didn't say a prayer asking forgiveness? Or a believer who stole a pen from work? That salvation hinges on such a thing?

But what if they honestly forget? Or die before they say their prayers? One SHOULD ask forgiveness of any sin immediately, but a repentant heart wouldn't commit the sin in the first place, so there must be some degree of rebellion there.

Or what if they didn't realize their sin? This is the more important question inspired by such an understanding. We all sin CONSTANTLY ... without realizing it. We might not steal or lie or certainly not murder ... but any time we fall short of the mark (and the mark we aim for is Jesus Christ) ... we miss the mark (i.e. sin). God mercifully does not even make us aware of our degree of sinfulness all at once. It would overwhelm us into despair. So we all have countless "unconfessed" sins. That would mean no one can possibly be saved. If I understand you correctly?



Forgive me. I'm really not wishing to make an argument. (Besides, that's not allowed in TT.) Just sharing a point of view but I'm feeling very unwell and I'm sure I'm not being gracious. I apologize for that.



But my real meaning is that sin actually affects us. And that's the important aspect. All sin moves us further from God (in terms of our relationship with Him and our likeness to Christ) and so all sin can certainly affect our salvation, yes. But how much a particular sin hardens us against God and impairs even our ability to repent will be different according to the degree of the sin. And often for the particular person. Someone who is already very close to God must rebel more to commit a "minor" sin that might be a thoughtless accident to one weaker in faith, and so could be harmed spiritually very much by what might barely affect the other.

Only God knows these things. Only He knows the hearts of men. We don't even know our own selves.

But God is not a judge ticking off boxes to see if He can find a technicality on which to condemn a person. Rather God is Father, Healer, the One who loves mankind an desires that all be transformed into the likeness of Christ and be "saved" when it is time to pass judgement. Whether or not we cooperate with His grace to become so is up to us, though, of course, since He will not force anyone.



Forgive me if I've been ungracious. God be with you.

In the Orthodox tradition, we don’t hold to categories of mortal vs venial sin. That’s a more legalistic approach.

Sin is a disease; we suffer corruption because of it. Some sins are more grievous than others and they do impact us spiritually to different degrees.

We often consider the underlying passions to be the root of sins. The more deadly sins are similar to a disease that has progressed severely. When we have thoughts that may lead us towards some grievous sin, it may still be sin, but it is easier to nip in the bud, so to speak. If we repent of the smaller sins, then we can avoid the progression of that sin.

For example, the root cause of stealing could be considered envy. The root cause of sexual sin is lust. Every deadly sin has its root in a passion. Jesus referred to this concept when He said that a person who lusts has committed adultery in the mind.

When we commit the more grievous sins, we may be more calloused towards sin. Often doctors say that when a person suffers a severe injury, they may not even recognize the pain. In the severest shock, a person may become numb. The deadly sins often occur when we become numb to sin. Likewise, if we don’t confess them, they may desensitize us from other sins.

If you think about this, it parallels to the “sins that lead to death” as listed in Scripture. No sin is too great for God to forgive, should we ask Him to do that. The big question is where we are spiritually - the state of our soul and mind. Are we inclined towards God? Or are we against Him? What do we love? Sin? Or God? Have we hardened our hearts to God? Often, that is what the more serious sins lead us to do, should we not confess them and turn back towards God.

God knows our hearts and knows our deepest desires. We need to ask for healing spiritually. Thankfully God is the Great Physician for our souls.

As St. Paul wrote, "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death." (Rom 5:7)

God forgives each sin without prejudice if a believer repents, but not all sins are equal, not at all.

Coram homnibus, sins vary in severity- a white lie is obviously not the same as tying up and sadistically torturing and murdering your neighbor, but coram Deo, all sin is mortal, because we confess we are sinful by nature and justly merit God's temporal and eternal punishment.

ilovejcsog said:

It would be nice if they were not equal......For instance a pedophile gets the same punishment that a person who steals a candy bar ......

Click to expand...

That would be confusing a human sense of disgust with divine wrath against iniquity.