Are babies unrighteousness?

TheSeabass

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When you extend an argument to the rediculous, "Sin is something inherited through genes of DNA," or, "Sin is a substance transmitted as bacteria," and then attack the rediculousness (of your own making) this approach to argument is known as a straw man logical fallacy.

Now it is easy to gain rhetorical points by deploying these types of fallacies given that A: Your audience is unfamiliar with scripture (which doesn't seem like a good assumption), and B: Your audience is unfamiliar with logic and logical fallacy, (which again doesn't seem like a good assumption).

Now original sin was a concept discussed since the beginning of the epistles. We can argue as to its truth-value but let's not misrepresent the claims of scripture with straw men.

It's not a straw man but simply stating the facts that sin is not some thing that is "transferred" from one person to another as original sin is somehow passively "transfers" from Adam to others thru the conception or birth process. If a transgression does not occur then sin does not exist. Since the fetus has not transgressed therefore no sin occurs therefore it is impossible for the fetus to be a sinner in any way making original sin impossible.

This "transfer" idea is similar to the false idea that some hold to that Christ's righteousness is "transferred" to the sinner while the sinner sits and does nothing but have some mental acknowledgement of facts (faith only). This is their attempt to find away to get around the work of obeying the will of God to be saved. Righteousness is no more 'transferred' from on to another than unrighteousness/sin is 'transferred' from one to another.

Uber Genius said:
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:2says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners — for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.” Genesis 8:21 declares, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Jonathan Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: “The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence . . . so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy.”

A lot more work has to be done by you and others to demonstrated that dozens of passages in both Old and New Testaments were exegeted improperly. And church fathers both ante and post-nicene, were mistaken. Catholicism and Protestantism in the main have missed the meaning as well. I am willing to engage the evidence but mountains have to be moved here.

Psa 51:5 I dealt with already David did not say he was "born a sinner" but was born in sin My mother could have given birth to me while on a trip to China. Therefore I would have been "born in China" but that would not make me Chinese nor more than being born in sin makes one a sinner. Being born in China I would have been surrounded by Chinese culture, language, people yet it still does not make me Chinese. Likewise, the world is full of sin and iniquity yet being born surrounded by that sin does not make me a sinner no more than being born in China would make me Chinese.

Acts 2:8 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

The Apostles had just spoken in about 15 different dialects and the people say what was recorded above in verse 8. If you had been there you would say how you heard the Apostles speak in the English language wherein you were born. Yet this does not mean you were born speaking English. You were born into an environment where English was spoken and in time you learned to speak it yourself. Likewise we are all born into an environment full of sin and iniquity and in time, as we mature intellectually, we learn right from wrong and then CHOOSE TO SIN thereby we become sinners B CHOICE not passively forced upon us at birth.
 
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Uber Genius

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This "transfer" idea is similar to the false idea that some hold to that Christ's righteousness is "transferred" to the sinner while the sinner sits and does nothing but have some mental acknowledgement of facts (faith only). T

I think you may have to investigate the definition of a straw man fallacy. Yours is a textbook example.

But I do like you bringing scriptural data to the fore.

However you have done it again McGoo!

There is no one claiming mental assent leads to a transfer of Christ's positional righteousness. Straw man!

The demons believe and they shutter!

The the transformations of lives through the work of the HS (Galatians 5:22,23) is predicated on a trust relationship with God not works. By works of the law, no flesh will be justified. By grace you have been save by faith, not as a result of works that no man should boast.

Was Paul set against James? Does a quick study of the NT qua soteriology lead to incoherence (i.e. Two different methods of salvation, one by grace the other by works)?

I think this is an important discussion but will take us far afield from the topic at hand.

Please give me your exegetical understanding of Roman's 14:5ff:

"5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."
 
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GreatistheLord

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If righteousness comes from morality and keeping the law then all are innocent until they reach the ability to act as moral agents. Unfortunately by the works of the law no flesh will be justified!

Therefore they are born unholy. And it is God's grace than brings them and holds them in relationship until they have the ability to make a freewill choice.
I'm not claiming righteousness as a positive action, but as an absence of accountable sin. Therefore, babies are not unrighteous.
 
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TheSeabass

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I think you may have to investigate the definition of a straw man fallacy. Yours is a textbook example.

But I do like you bringing scriptural data to the fore.

However you have done it again McGoo!

There is no one claiming mental assent leads to a transfer of Christ's positional righteousness. Straw man!

The demons believe and they shutter!

I have seen faith onlyist on various forums try to find ways for the sinner to be righteous without having to do any righteous works. So they want the sinner made righteous by faith only (no works) while the sinner does nothing.

Uber Genius said:
The the transformations of lives through the work of the HS (Galatians 5:22,23) is predicated on a trust relationship with God not works. By works of the law, no flesh will be justified. By grace you have been save by faith, not as a result of works that no man should boast.

Here is proof in you trying to find a way for the sinner to be seen righteous by God with doing any righteous works. Gal 5:22-23 Paul is referring to works of the OT law of Moses and is not excluding works of obedience in doing God's will.

In Romans 6:16 Paul says you serve either one of two masters, you serve either;

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve #2 obedience unto righteousness. The man made teaching of faith only eliminates serving #2 for them. Which do you follow?

Uber Genius said:
Was Paul set against James? Does a quick study of the NT qua soteriology lead to incoherence (i.e. Two different methods of salvation, one by grace the other by works)?

James--------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies Jam 2:24
Paul--------obeyed from heart>>>>>>>>>>>justifies/freed from sin Rom 6:17-18

Two men in perfect agreement.

I think this is an important discussion but will take us far afield from the topic at hand.

Uber Genius said:
Please give me your exegetical understanding of Roman's 14:5ff:

"5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

Paul is dealing with issues of opinion (verse 1) and not issues of doctrine. Unfortunately many people try to use Rom 14 to say doctrinal differences do not matter when Rom 14 does NOT include doctrinal matters. John was very clear on doctrinal matters: "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." 2 John 1:9-11

Original sin is not a doctrine of Christ.
 
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Uber Genius

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I have seen faith onlyist on various forums try to find ways for the sinner to be righteous without having to do any righteous works. So they want the sinner made righteous by faith only (no works) while the sinner does nothing.
Your "Faith Onlyist" include Paul, and all Prostestants who hold to the Westminster Confession.

Sola Gratia was a battle cry of the reformation!

Ephesians 2:8-10:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Is Paul opposed to good works? No. But one has to do with how one is saved (Grace through faith/NOT WORKS), the other is how we live as disciples now enabled as if raised from the dead, to do good works.

For more on this distinction 1 Cor 3:12-15:
"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

What was the foundation? Christ NOT WORKS!

If you have not done good work as a Christian what happens?

You suffer loss "though he himself will be saved."

So we still maintain free will after salvation and we still get to make choices to enter into what ever good works such as those Paul did.

But don't conflate good works here with keeping the law or equivocating "God's commandments."

No one loses their salvation because they didn't produce good works.


s not excluding works of obedience in doing God's will.

Agreed. As both the passages I quoted demonstrate.

Problem is when someone tries to gain or maintain salvation by producing good works.



serve either one of two masters, you serve either;

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve #2 obedience unto righteousness. The man made teaching of faith only eliminates serving #2 for them. Which do you follow?
Is the obedience he is talking about above keeping the law?

Rom 6:22-Rom 6:23 goes on to clarify what obedience is about.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Free gift.

Gal 5:1-Gal 5:6
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Gal 3:1-Gal 3:3
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

So Paul is concerned not only about the Law's interference with salvation, but also sanctification.

So I would need a fuller explanation of what you call "obedience to God's commands."
Original sin is not a doctrine of Christ.
Sounds impressive but what are you saying? Christ never outlined it. He also never outlined his own nature, Paul and the author of Hebrews do that work.

Jesus doesn't outline the nature of the Trinity, he makes references to HS and Father and his own deity so we can infer it but Christ doesn't give us a teaching on how they relate so do you want to say, "Christ's Divine Nature and the Trinity are not doctrines of Christ?"

However we can drill down on Augustinian theory, Federal theory, or Mediate imputation theory, 5th century CE, 17th century CE respectively.

It could be the case that through the Christian church age since the 5th century the majority of scholars have it wrong. I'm not being flippant here I think it is worth exploring.

If that is the case then all would be born innocent until such a time as they sinned.

Paul is dealing with issues of opinion (verse 1) and not issues of doctrine. Unfortunately many people try to use Rom 14 to say doctrinal differences do not matter when Rom 14 does NOT include doctrinal matters.

Well it seems that Paul is concerned with certain commandments or traditions that some Christians felt they needed to keep and other felt they were not compelled to keep. Paul suggests God looks at one's intent. The one's who feel compelled to keep these "special days" are said to be the weaker brothers but not in any way lessor in Paul's eyes or God's.
 
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faroukfarouk

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No one is righteous meaning that we are all born with a sinful nature. Sooner or later, we will sin. But sin is an act that must be repented.
Hi; just goes to show that the Gospel needs to be heard from the earliest age! :)
 
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SkyWriting

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Nay,this is indeed the correct scripture but not fitted to your "subject" a child that is not born or likewise a child that dies before an age of sin accountability,is therefore "Welcomed by God into heaven with open arms" for the child has no parent in essence as well as that the child can hardly do a willful sin,according to of course your lifespan given of the child,it's the same as asking was Jesus unrighteous,because a child being born into sin only means the child is "capable" of sin,but not held accountable nor considered unrighteous,this is why despite popular"doctrine" babies have no need to be baptized or sprinkled for they have not "known"'sin,therefore they Are Righteous it is when they have lived enough to account for sin that they have a need of any form of baptism(including baptism of the holy spirit)your quote of scripture is "True" but you have yet to "allow"the holy spirit to guide you to answers,anyone can quote scripture yet not grasp what it "truly" means as with this scripture you quoted,when it is stated,"there is none righteous no not one" the scripture is referring to everyone who is born into sin and are "able" to account for their sin once past the time of "innocence" in their lives,I encourage you to seek out the holy spirit for answers when reading the bible,and "let" him teach you,using one's own knowledge concerning God's word particularly is when we all confound ourselves because to read God's word you must read it in a"spiritual" instead of a "natural" sense,it's not like a normal book or newspaper that you just read it and understand it,it takes time and willingness to learn even a portion of it.

Children are born into sin and separated from God in the same way
that a child is separated from it's mother at birth. I didn't invent
this simile, by the way. But the only way into Hell is to, with understanding,
reject God's Holy Spirit of Love. As Jesus explained, children are born with
the intelligence to do that better than adults. But with God, even adults
can get to heaven.
 
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Ken Rank

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No one is righteous meaning that we are all born with a sinful nature. Sooner or later, we will sin. But sin is an act that must be repented.

Babies know what they are doing is wrong, but they don't know that it is a sin that needs to be repented of unless it's told to them. If a baby has the capacity to lie, they have the capacity to repent. If it's a 5 month fetus, what can it possibly do to sin?
Why don't you think anyone is righteous?
 
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Alittlereality

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.
Hand to face...shame.
Again faulty sinning humans penned the books of the bible. I shouldnt need to bring that up. All life is a Holy creation. Our inner pollution of decision can create wrong thought or action. But then how do we define say a tumor or lesion on the brain where rational perception is altered causing forms of madness?
I just hung out with family with a precious baby. No thought entered my head that this child has any guilt of others or itself.
Its the adult thinkers world that punishes itself by delusional thinking.
 
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Ken Rank

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Thanks Ken.
Sorry, I should have re-phrased that better. No one is "good."
I was actually just looking to see if you were quoting Paul's "there is none righteous" line because he was quoting a Psalm (14:1) that was dealing with atheists. :) I have seen that quoted so many times to say "we can't be righteous" when there are plenty of examples of people being called righteous.

Be blessed. :)

Ken
 
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Ron Gurley

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There is only one righteousness from babes to bad guys...IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2 Corinthians 5:21
He (God the Father) made Him (God the Son) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him.

WHY?

Romans 3
for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under (the bondage of) sin; 10 as it is written,
There is none (SELF!) righteous, not even one;
 
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Jonaitis

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

Yes, we were born sinners from birth. Sure, we didn't have the same capability and awareness to commit a crime at four months compared to a twenty-three year old, but we were no less sinful then as we would be as adults. Who teaches a child to steal from another, or to lie to their parents, or to break things when they get mad? These aren't comparable to murder, robbery, and the destructive behavior we would see if the child was older, but they are indeed signs and symptoms of that indwelling corruption in them. These are early signs and it should remind us that we are fallen from birth. When the child's brain and body begins to develop, his sin becomes much more expressible.

People are uncomfortable with this truth, but we should be honest with what God says about the matter.
 
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FireDragon76

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Depends on what you mean by "Total depravity."

The Calvinist understanding is not hyperbole; rather it is just plain wrong. The Arminian understanding is probably more accurate.

They are more or less the same since Arminian theology is simply a subset of Reformed theology, only differing on a few details.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well, I don't feel I was sinful from my conception, do you? If you do then maybe there is a reason for that, but I don't know what it is?

Part of being sinful is not knowing your own sinfulness.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

That no one is righteous means that no one is righteous. Sin's universal. No baby grasps, has sense in religion. No baby seeks God, strives to find God.

Babies are born estranged from God, indifferent to God's will and worship, turned away, uninterested in spiritual matters.
 
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FireDragon76

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That no one is righteous means that no one is righteous. Sin's universal. No baby grasps, has sense in religion. No baby seeks God, strives to find God.

Babies are born estranged from God, indifferent to God's will and worship, turned away, uninterested in spiritual matters.

That makes sense really, too. There are plenty of kids in Europe and the US that grow up unchunched and they never have a God-haunted moment.

The folk Arminianism of Americans assumes too much of human nature, and it assumes that somehow Christianity is natural to people, when it really isn't.
 
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devin553344

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Part of being sinful is not knowing your own sinfulness.

Did you know you're posting in a thread from Nov 2017?

But to answer your question, We are innocent from birth. We must sin to be evil. So I would then ask you what sins babies commit in your mind?
 
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pshun2404

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Babies are a gift of God...blessed is the man whose quiver is full. Yes we will all sin, but we are not born guilty and worthy of condemnation. The children are not guilty of the sins of the fathers (which include Adam). The soul that sins IT shall die, because OUR sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). So when we sin we die spiritually (separated from God) but if and when we repent and seek His forgiveness, He is always there with His grace because of what Jesus did.
 
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