TULIP: The Calvinist Map of Salvation.

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
What follows is not an invitation to a debate, I understand there are points of controversy here and there. I've just spent a great deal of time exploring systematic theology, trying to find one that is compatible with my belief system. This is a brief outline of the five points of Calvinism, certainly not intended to be a complete or perfect representation of the great body of work that has gone into this long Reformation tradition. Of course there are other things that might enter the conversation, double imputation and eternal security come to mind. What I'm seeing here is a lot like the old Romans road to salvation from conviction to sanctification. I've offered a few proof texts, just to give us a starting point.

Total Depravity:

“As for you, you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.” (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

There are none who understand, they’ve all turned away, they have become worthless because all have sinned (Romans 3:9-12; Psalm 5:9; 14:1-3; 53:1-3). In their heart (Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 15:19), mind (Romans 1:28-31; Ephesians 4:17-18), and conscience (Titus 1:15-16). Enslaved to the elementary principles of the world, and by nature idolatrous (Galatians 4:8-9; Colossians 3:5)

Unconditional election:

So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:16)​

The Most High is Sovereign and rules in the affairs of men (Daniel 4:17). God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion upon whom he will have compassion (Romans 9:15; Exodus 33:19). Righteousness comes only from God, The justified (those made righteous) acknowledge Christ to be not only "Jehovah Our Righteousness" (Jeremiah 23:6) – but also their only righteousness (Psalm 71:16). And they pray to be "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Philippians 3:9).

Not by righteous deed we have done (Titus 3:5), not by works of the Law lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:9), but by grace we are freed from the tyrany of sin (Romans 6:13-14). A righteousness that is by faith (Romans 3:21-22).

Limited atonement:

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28)​

Christ gave himself for the sanctification of the church (Ephesians 5:25-27), his name was Jesus because he would save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21) and justifies us (makes us righteous) in the courts of heaven safe from any charge of sin (Rom. 8:32-35). It is believers that have eternal life, and are raised at the last day (John 6:40). Manifest in the love God has shown by making Christ the propitiation for us (1 John 2:2; 4:10), and the love of God is made perfect in them (1 John 4:12). That propitiation being the New Testament fulfillment of the mercy seat, where atonement was made for sin (Romans 3:25; Lev. 9:7; 25:9; Numbers 5:8)

Irresistible grace:

Salvation by grace through faith is an act of God’s will (Rom. 9:19), none can stay his hand (Dan. 4:35). It is not of ourselves it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), all who would serve God do so by grace (Acts 20:24). That remnant exists only according to the election (divine choice) of grace (Romans 11:5-6), which is the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit of promise, not works of righteousness (Titus 3:5; Ezekiel. 36:25-26). We respond to the grace of God working by laying hold of what first laid hold of us (Phil. 3:11-12). All works that follow are works energized by grace (1 Cor. 15:10)​

Predestination (that should be Preservation of the Saints):

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:2)​

God has predestined certain things regarding salvation according to the council of his own will (Acts :28). That the elect be conformed to the image of his Son according to his foreknowledge (Rom. 8:29), which is the basis for the elect to be called, justified and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This includes the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (Eph. 1:5). All of this done according to the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11)

Recently I was doing a little cross comparison of the first five Beatitudes and the five points of Calvinism, I thought they lined up pretty well. We can get into that sort of thing later assuming this doesn't just drift off harmlessly into the stacks. It's just meant to be a starting point for how the Calvinist believes salvation works, summed up in the five points of Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Predestination.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Last edited:

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Recently I was doing a little cross comparison of the first five Beatitudes and the five points of Calvinism, I thought they lined up pretty well. We can get into that sort of thing later assuming this doesn't just drift off harmlessly into the stacks.

Sounds like an intriguing comparison. I'll have to look them up.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Sounds like an intriguing comparison. I'll have to look them up.
That's good to know, checking the proof texts would be the first order of business in what could be a complicated discussion.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
That's good to know, checking the proof texts would be the first order of business in what could be a complicated discussion.

I'm very familiar with the 5 points. I was talking about looking up the beatitudes as to how they compared. I'd never heard that comparison before; (or even that there was one) so I'd be interested in hearing what you've discovered.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm very familiar with the 5 points. I was talking about looking up the beatitudes as to how they compared. I'd never heard that comparison before; (or even that there was one) so I'd be interested in hearing what you've discovered.
I almost put that in the OP but I didn't want to bog it down. Here is the one that got me going with it, 'blessed are the poor in spirit' and Total depravity. The word Jesus is using means utterly destitute, not the working poor or some poor guy reduced to begging. The Beatitudes look to me to be a path to discipleship, starting with basic conviction for sin, to being pure in heart which sounds like regeneration, or being born again. I could do a more in depth exposition and comparison if your interested but I doubt seriously you'll find that anyone else is seeing the comparison in the same terms I am.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I almost put that in the OP but I didn't want to bog it down. Here is the one that got me going with it, 'blessed are the poor in spirit' and Total depravity. The word Jesus is using means utterly destitute, not the working poor or some poor guy reduced to begging. The Beatitudes look to me to be a path to discipleship, starting with basic conviction for sin, to being pure in heart which sounds like regeneration, or being born again. I could do a more in depth exposition and comparison if your interested but I doubt seriously you'll find that anyone else is seeing the comparison in the same terms I am.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Good catch on the "utterly destitute".

That happens to me too. I do studies and seem to find things other's miss.
 
Upvote 0

Ttalkkugjil

Social Pastor
Mar 6, 2019
1,680
908
Suwon
✟34,572.00
Country
Korea, Republic Of
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
What follows is not an invitation to a debate, I understand there are points of controversy here and there. I've just spent a great deal of time exploring systematic theology, trying to find one that is compatible with my belief system. This is a brief outline of the five points of Calvinism, certainly not intended to be a complete or perfect representation of the great body of work that has gone into this long Reformation tradition. Of course there are other things that might enter the conversation, double imputation and eternal security come to mind. What I'm seeing here is a lot like the old Romans road to salvation from conviction to sanctification. I've offered a few proof texts, just to give us a starting point.

Total Depravity:

“As for you, you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.” (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

There are none who understand, they’ve all turned away, they have become worthless because all have sinned (Romans 3:9-12; Psalm 5:9; 14:1-3; 53:1-3). In their heart (Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 15:19), mind (Romans 1:28-31; Ephesians 4:17-18), and conscience (Titus 1:15-16). Enslaved to the elementary principles of the world, and by nature idolatrous (Galatians 4:8-9; Colossians 3:5)

Unconditional election:

So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:16)​

The Most High is Sovereign and rules in the affairs of men (Daniel 4:17). God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion upon whom he will have compassion (Romans 9:15; Exodus 33:19). Righteousness comes only from God, The justified (those made righteous) acknowledge Christ to be not only "Jehovah Our Righteousness" (Jeremiah 23:6) – but also their only righteousness (Psalm 71:16). And they pray to be "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Philippians 3:9).

Not by righteous deed we have done (Titus 3:5), not by works of the Law lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:9), but by grace we are freed from the tyrany of sin (Romans 6:13-14). A righteousness that is by faith (Romans 3:21-22).

Limited atonement:

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28)​

Christ gave himself for the sanctification of the church (Ephesians 5:25-27), his name was Jesus because he would save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21) and justifies us (makes us righteous) in the courts of heaven safe from any charge of sin (Rom. 8:32-35). It is believers that have eternal life, and are raised at the last day (John 6:40). Manifest in the love God has shown by making Christ the propitiation for us (1 John 2:2; 4:10), and the love of God is made perfect in them (1 John 4:12). That propitiation being the New Testament fulfillment of the mercy seat, where atonement was made for sin (Romans 3:25; Lev. 9:7; 25:9; Numbers 5:8)

Irresistible grace:

Salvation by grace through faith is an act of God’s will (Rom. 9:19), none can stay his hand (Dan. 4:35). It is not of ourselves it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), all who would serve God do so by grace (Acts 20:24). That remnant exists only according to the election (divine choice) of grace (Romans 11:5-6), which is the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit of promise, not works of righteousness (Titus 3:5; Ezekiel. 36:25-26). We respond to the grace of God working by laying hold of what first laid hold of us (Phil. 3:11-12). All works that follow are works energized by grace (1 Cor. 15:10)​

Predestination:

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:2)​

God has predestined certain things regarding salvation according to the council of his own will (Acts :28). That the elect be conformed to the image of his Son according to his foreknowledge (Rom. 8:29), which is the basis for the elect to be called, justified and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This includes the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (Eph. 1:5). All of this done according to the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11)

Recently I was doing a little cross comparison of the first five Beatitudes and the five points of Calvinism, I thought they lined up pretty well. We can get into that sort of thing later assuming this doesn't just drift off harmlessly into the stacks. It's just meant to be a starting point for how the Calvinist believes salvation works, summed up in the five points of Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Predestination.

Grace and peace,
Mark
A good summary of the 5 points.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Good catch on the "utterly destitute".

That happens to me too. I do studies and seem to find things other's miss.
I memorized Matthew 5 years ago, when I was in AA after coming back from Afghanistan my drinking got morbid. I'm sitting in there looking at the twelve steps and realized, the first seven are straight out of the Beatitudes, a very liberal interpretation mind you, but they matched up surprisingly well. I was doing some reading on the subject and found out the Bill Wilson had done that on purpose, he always said it was based on the Sermon on the Mount. I thought it was fascinating.

More recently my daughter got into Celebrate Recovery, some depression issues over coming out of an abusive relationship. I'm looking through the literature and notice, they do direct comparisons of the steps to the Beatitudes, kind of interesting.

The one that has me a little intrigued is this hungering and thirsting after righteousness, how it would line up with irresistible grace. Of course it would seem irresistible in the sense that we as sinners are virtually starved for righteousness and there is no other way to find it, except a sovereign act of God. Perhaps just some random connections but I think there is something there.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

pasifika

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2019
2,368
634
45
Waikato
✟161,016.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What follows is not an invitation to a debate, I understand there are points of controversy here and there. I've just spent a great deal of time exploring systematic theology, trying to find one that is compatible with my belief system. This is a brief outline of the five points of Calvinism, certainly not intended to be a complete or perfect representation of the great body of work that has gone into this long Reformation tradition. Of course there are other things that might enter the conversation, double imputation and eternal security come to mind. What I'm seeing here is a lot like the old Romans road to salvation from conviction to sanctification. I've offered a few proof texts, just to give us a starting point.

Total Depravity:

“As for you, you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.” (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

There are none who understand, they’ve all turned away, they have become worthless because all have sinned (Romans 3:9-12; Psalm 5:9; 14:1-3; 53:1-3). In their heart (Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 15:19), mind (Romans 1:28-31; Ephesians 4:17-18), and conscience (Titus 1:15-16). Enslaved to the elementary principles of the world, and by nature idolatrous (Galatians 4:8-9; Colossians 3:5)

Unconditional election:

So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:16)​

The Most High is Sovereign and rules in the affairs of men (Daniel 4:17). God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion upon whom he will have compassion (Romans 9:15; Exodus 33:19). Righteousness comes only from God, The justified (those made righteous) acknowledge Christ to be not only "Jehovah Our Righteousness" (Jeremiah 23:6) – but also their only righteousness (Psalm 71:16). And they pray to be "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Philippians 3:9).

Not by righteous deed we have done (Titus 3:5), not by works of the Law lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:9), but by grace we are freed from the tyrany of sin (Romans 6:13-14). A righteousness that is by faith (Romans 3:21-22).

Limited atonement:

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28)​

Christ gave himself for the sanctification of the church (Ephesians 5:25-27), his name was Jesus because he would save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21) and justifies us (makes us righteous) in the courts of heaven safe from any charge of sin (Rom. 8:32-35). It is believers that have eternal life, and are raised at the last day (John 6:40). Manifest in the love God has shown by making Christ the propitiation for us (1 John 2:2; 4:10), and the love of God is made perfect in them (1 John 4:12). That propitiation being the New Testament fulfillment of the mercy seat, where atonement was made for sin (Romans 3:25; Lev. 9:7; 25:9; Numbers 5:8)

Irresistible grace:

Salvation by grace through faith is an act of God’s will (Rom. 9:19), none can stay his hand (Dan. 4:35). It is not of ourselves it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), all who would serve God do so by grace (Acts 20:24). That remnant exists only according to the election (divine choice) of grace (Romans 11:5-6), which is the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit of promise, not works of righteousness (Titus 3:5; Ezekiel. 36:25-26). We respond to the grace of God working by laying hold of what first laid hold of us (Phil. 3:11-12). All works that follow are works energized by grace (1 Cor. 15:10)​

Predestination:

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:2)​

God has predestined certain things regarding salvation according to the council of his own will (Acts :28). That the elect be conformed to the image of his Son according to his foreknowledge (Rom. 8:29), which is the basis for the elect to be called, justified and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This includes the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (Eph. 1:5). All of this done according to the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11)

Recently I was doing a little cross comparison of the first five Beatitudes and the five points of Calvinism, I thought they lined up pretty well. We can get into that sort of thing later assuming this doesn't just drift off harmlessly into the stacks. It's just meant to be a starting point for how the Calvinist believes salvation works, summed up in the five points of Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Predestination.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Hello, I agree totally...we're All sinners therefore we're All spiritual dead because of sin. But Only God who made us alive in His Son whom He chosen for this task of saving the human race before the creation of the world 1Pet1:20

Thank you
Grace and peace be abundantly given through the knowledge of our Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I memorized Matthew 5 years ago, when I was in AA after coming back from Afghanistan my drinking got morbid. I'm sitting in there looking at the twelve steps and realized, the first seven are straight out of the Beatitudes, a very liberal interpretation mind you, but they matched up surprisingly well. I was doing some reading on the subject and found out the Bill Wilson had done that on purpose, he always said it was based on the Sermon on the Mount. I thought it was fascinating.

More recently my daughter got into Celebrate Recovery, some depression issues over coming out of an abusive relationship. I'm looking through the literature and notice, they do direct comparisons of the steps to the Beatitudes, kind of interesting.

The one that has me a little intrigued is this hungering and thirsting after righteousness, how it would line up with irresistible grace. Of course it would seem irresistible in the sense that we as sinners are virtually starved for righteousness and there is no other way to find it, except a sovereign act of God. Perhaps just some random connections but I think there is something there.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Interesting - Lot of good catches too!

PS - welcome home - I'm a vet too. Did clean up after Desert Storm.

Hunger and thirst for righteousness I'd always interpreted as wanting your sin covered as well as wanting to see God's will done and justice prevail on earth etc. I think all those answers are "correct" on what ever spiritual level we would apply them too.

What state are you in? I think I've heard of Bill Wilson? (I just can't remember where?) I've been around a while. I live in western NY.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ttalkkugjil

Social Pastor
Mar 6, 2019
1,680
908
Suwon
✟34,572.00
Country
Korea, Republic Of
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Hello, I agree totally...we're All sinners therefore we're All spiritual dead because of sin. But Only God who made us alive in His Son whom He chosen for this task of saving the human race before the creation of the world 1Pet1:20

Thank you
Grace and peace be abundantly given through the knowledge of our Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Christ was destined by God from eternity.

Our salvation is based upon love's counsel which was resolved upon by God before time's beginning, before this earth's foundations were laid.

And now Christ was in these last times manifested.

He who had existed from eternity and had participated in God's counsel for humanity's salvation was made human for us, to earn redemption for us, to pay the price for us.

That Jesus' blood was paid as the price is our comfort with which we defy Satan's accusations and the Judgment's terrors, and anticipate bliss.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Interesting - Lot of good catches too!

PS - welcome home - I'm a vet too. Did clean up after Desert Storm.

Hunger and thirst for righteousness I'd always interpreted as wanting your sin covered as well as wanting to see God's will done and justice prevail on earth etc. I think all those answers are "correct" on what ever spiritual level we would apply them too.

What state are you in? I think I've heard of Bill Wilson? (I just can't remember where?) I've been around a while. I live in western NY.
Thank you for your service, I'm from Indiana. Bill Wilson was originally from Vermont but was a New York native. He is considered the cofounder of AA, along with Dr. Bob from Ohio.

One of the things that is striking about the God of the ancient Hebrews, we simply think of as God. The God of the ancient Hebrews was righteous, so many of the pagan gods were nothing of the sort. What the Law showed us was that we are in fact sinners, there is no getting around that in the gospel. It's rather interesting, if not a little off topic, hungering and thirsting after righteousness would correspond to the AA moral inventory. Don't we all go through a moral inventory when dealing with conviction of sin?
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,942.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Wow, so it is, I guess I've always closely associated them.
Predestination would actually be part of the "U" unconditional election.
My grandfather preached the TULIP.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Predestination would actually be part of the "U" unconditional election.
My grandfather preached the TULIP.
I don't know how I made that association but I think it was because it was related in my mind to our adoption in Christ. Predestination is the intentions of God regarding salvation, the preservation of the saints is pretty much a fulfillment of that purpose of God in Christ. Not sure how I missed that, thanks for pointing that out. A strange mistake for an OP to be sure. I also think of it as being related to eternal security as a matter of fact.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Thank you for your service, I'm from Indiana. Bill Wilson was originally from Vermont but was a New York native. He is considered the cofounder of AA, along with Dr. Bob from Ohio.

One of the things that is striking about the God of the ancient Hebrews, we simply think of as God. The God of the ancient Hebrews was righteous, so many of the pagan gods were nothing of the sort. What the Law showed us was that we are in fact sinners, there is no getting around that in the gospel. It's rather interesting, if not a little off topic, hungering and thirsting after righteousness would correspond to the AA moral inventory. Don't we all go through a moral inventory when dealing with conviction of sin?

Duh... LOL Bill Wilson is from AA - I knew that - really I did. I've gone to Al-Anon for years.

Interesting connections between 12 step groups. I know the 12 steps came from a conglomerate of writings, some of which were from an evangelical pamphlet of some sort.

LOL :doh::doh::doh: I'm so stupid - I knew Bill Wilson was AA - didn't make the connection.

:doh::doh::doh:
 
Upvote 0

pasifika

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2019
2,368
634
45
Waikato
✟161,016.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christ was destined by God from eternity.

Our salvation is based upon love's counsel which was resolved upon by God before time's beginning, before this earth's foundations were laid.

And now Christ was in these last times manifested.

He who had existed from eternity and had participated in God's counsel for humanity's salvation was made human for us, to earn redemption for us, to pay the price for us.

That Jesus' blood was paid as the price is our comfort with which we defy Satan's accusations and the Judgment's terrors, and anticipate bliss.

Hello, that is so comforting to know, that God with His foreknowledge seeing the problem that will occurs to His children and dominion, devise a plan for their salvation and sealed it by choosing His Son for the job....That is Before anything was made...
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Ttalkkugjil
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Duh... LOL Bill Wilson is from AA - I knew that - really I did. I've gone to Al-Anon for years.

Interesting connections between 12 step groups. I know the 12 steps came from a conglomerate of writings, some of which were from an evangelical pamphlet of some sort.

LOL :doh::doh::doh: I'm so stupid - I knew Bill Wilson was AA - didn't make the connection.

:doh::doh::doh:
Don't be so hard on yourself, I mistook predestination for preservation of the saints. Your in good company.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I wanted to take another pass at this, assuming my little gaffe hasn't derailed my own thread. A friend who has been coaching me a little on Calvinism told me it wasn't unusual to approach the five points of Calvinism using different terminology. Let's take for instance Total depravity, one has to wonder was the image of God completely ruined in man as the result of Adam's disobedience or simply damaged. When God told Adam on the day you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die. The Hebrew has a very interesting form of that word, it literally means, 'dying you shall die', here is a discussion of how the word is used elsewhere (Dying You Shall Die: The meaning of Genesis 2:17). Total depravity might just be one way of expressing it, sin is actually more transcendent, since it gets into everything including the mind, will and emotions. Sin is also a spiritual malady that withers the spirit on the vine. Now I think we can all agree that someone who is not a Christian, or religious, or even remotely spiritual is still capable of making basic moral decisions, loves their family and follows the rules most of the time. Yet because of original sin there is this curse of sin and death that clings to the human condition.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there and maybe open the discussion up more to the principles behind the five points of Calvinism in a little more depth.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0