Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!

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cvanwey

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Perhaps you'd do better to ask a more basic question:

Why aren't we perfect to begin with? Why did civilization, the rule of law, have to be gradually a progression, instead of just all-perfect-all-at-once-from-the-start of humanity?

Slavery continues today, including inside the U.S.

More, secular law also replicates in its own way the progression over time in the Bible -- a gradual accumulation of more restrictions, over time.

You could look for 20 seconds and see for yourself, or I can copy and quote it if you prefer:
Maryland Rape and Sexual Assault Laws - FindLaw

Why so many detailed provisions necessary, you think?

Why? because people don't do this:
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Do they?

I already answered as to why Matthew 7:12 is not applicable.
 
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Halbhh

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No, just.....no. Please re-read the OP. Slavery is 'regulated' in the extent that if you are not an Israelite.... Other than this, you are allowed to be kept for life, beaten for life, and considered property for life. No other verses negate such allowances. And even if there was such a verse(s) which did as such, we still have two issues:

1. Why implement two diametrically opposing verses - (it's okay vs it not okay)?
2. God seemed to be 'okay' with such forms of slavery in the past, and is now 'not okay' with such practices.




No. He is saying God allows for slavery. Now and always. Period.

And now, since you do not 'like' some of the forms of 'slavery' in which also come within this topic, you are now desperately trying to 'justify' it. But since 'slavery' is NOT defined by the Bible, one could again legalize chattle slavery, and use the Bible to justify it, without 'sin'; as God does not define what slavery is not, and allows for such :)




Again, what would it matter if it was? It's not a sin, according to God. ;) That's the point. God deems such a topic 'a-okay'. There is nothing 'progressive' to look towards.



I would love to see a verse in the NT in which states that Jesus no longer wished for humans to enslave other humans as property? And even if there was such a verse(s), again, please read above... (i.e.) God was okay with it, but is now not okay with it?



This is where one is to put on their 'thinking cap.' When Jesus stated to give away all your possessions to the poor, I think we all realize to take this suggestion in stride. If we all did this, we would experience economic collapse. So I instead 'take it in stride', and take the 'moral lesson' that it's 'good' to help the ones less fortunate than you, as much as you can.

But with the concept of the topic of slavery, Jesus never clarifies what a slave is and is not. Seems as though Jesus/God would know how DUMB humans are. Meaning, the term slave is a loose term. He never attempts to clarify it. And since, watches as millions apply it, at will. And furthermore, there exists no such writings to state any of it is considered 'sin.'




Because if we did, slavery is not a sin. So I again ask, why even bring up that it was Christians that abolished slavery? Why is that a proud 'feather in your cap' moment? Jesus could care less if it's abolished. Jesus allows for it.

So in affect, what (you) are saying, is that it is the Christians which don't like slavery. Why does Jesus not agree wholeheartedly?

We here tend to know the passages better than you are guessing.

When you say "No. He is saying God allows for slavery. Now and always. Period." that's just from having a lot less extensive reading in scripture, and I don't blame you for that. I'm just saying to expect to see new things you don't expect in scripture here.

Jesus Himself even used precisely beating slaves as the instance, the general metaphor, for evil.

The kind of evil sufficient to deserve hell. His words.

Christ Himself.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 “But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
--Matthew 24 NASB

Beating slaves as the chosen example that stands for all evil.

If continued in, leading to the "second death", the place with "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Unless you want to unsee it, that's just the reality -- He Himself used beating slaves as the epitome of what is wrong -- evil -- causing one to go to hell.

You can see that wording, or refuse to see it, but it's just the reality of what is in scripture, and it's not the only passage that tells us that mistreating slaves is wrong, in the New Testament.

In fact, we are instructed to go much further than only to cease beating slaves. They were in time to be not only free, but much better than only freed. Much further.
 
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cvanwey

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We here tend to know the passages better than you are guessing.

When you say "No. He is saying God allows for slavery. Now and always. Period." that's just from having a lot less extensive reading in scripture, and I don't blame you for that. I'm just saying to expect to see new things you don't expect in scripture here.

Jesus Himself even used precisely beating slaves as the instance, the general metaphor, for evil.

The kind of evil sufficient to deserve hell. His words.

Christ Himself.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 “But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
--Matthew 24 NASB

Beating slaves as the chosen example that stands for all evil.

If continued in, leading to the "second death", the place with "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Unless you want to unsee it, that's just the reality -- He Himself used beating slaves as the epitome of what is wrong -- evil -- causing one to go to hell.

You can see that wording, or refuse to see it, but it's just the reality of what is in scripture, and it's not the only passage that tells us that mistreating slaves is wrong, in the New Testament.

In fact, we are instructed to go much further than only to cease beating slaves. They were in time to be not only free, but much better than only freed. Much further.

It's merely speaking about how when 'the cat's away, the mice may play.' Meaning, when the master (slaver owner) is way, the slaves may run amuck. It warns that the slave must be-have as if the master is always watching.

Only the master is allowed to beat the slaves. Slaves are not to beat other slaves. They are to obey and work ;)


Could you please address the responses in post #219?
 
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Halbhh

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It's merely speaking about how when 'the cat's away, the mice may play.' Meaning, when the master (slaver owner) is way, the slaves may run amuck. It warns that the slave must be-have as if the master is always watching.

Only the master is allowed to beat the slaves. Slaves are not to beat other slaves. They are to obey and work ;)
Christians believe all will face a total accounting for all they have done, good and evil (evil not repented of, since God is merciful to forgive those that truly repent and thus truly change and cease doing an evil). It's the most basic fact of all scripture -- all will be held to account.

No one escapes this accounting, the day of judgement, and nothing is hidden on that day --

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
Romans 2 NIV

See, the master is away, and if the cats play in an evil way, they will be held to account (as in the previous post, very severely when they know better from scripture).

If you assume this won't happen, then scripture stops making sense.

But that would be assuming your conclusion -- thus arguing from your premise to only another form of your premise. (i.e. 'circular reasoning')

Just something to avoid if you are trying to understand the scripture.
 
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cvanwey

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Christians believe all will face a total accounting for all they have done, good and evil (evil not repented of, since God is merciful to forgive those that truly repent and thus truly change and cease doing an evil). It's the most basic fact of all scripture -- all will be held to account.

No one escapes this accounting, the day of judgement, and nothing is hidden on that day --

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
Romans 2 NIV

See, the master is away, and if the cats play in an evil way, they will be held to account (as in the previous post, very severely when they know better from scripture).

If you assume this won't happen, then scripture stops making sense.

But that would be assuming your conclusion -- thus arguing from your premise to only another form of your premise. (i.e. 'circular reasoning')

Just something to avoid if you are trying to understand the scripture.

You are merely preaching, with some Bible threats thrown in. As I stated prior, would you mind actually answering the post response, in #219?

Thank you!
 
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Halbhh

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You are merely preaching, with some Bible threats thrown in. As I stated prior, would you mind actually answering the post response, in #219?

Thank you!
Hi there!

I responded to post #219 just above in post #222.
 
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cvanwey

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Hi there!

I responded to post #219 just above in post #222.

Negative sir. You furnished a scripture passage letting people know that the master may come at any time, and to act accordingly. Also, that slaves are not to beat other slaves. That only the master may beat their slaves. This says nothing of what I responded to: (i.e.) Please address the furnished bullet points below:

- God regulates slavery in only that if you are an Israelite, there exists tightened rules (to certain a degree). If you are not a Jew, all bets are off, practically, for life. You did not address this....

- God allows for slavery (then and now). It is not considered sin to own humans as property and beat them. You did not address this...


- Please provide a verse where Jesus disallows for a slave master to own a slave for life, provided you are not a Jew? You did not address this....


- Jesus does not define what a slave is and is not. Allowing humans to impose slavery however they choose, all-the-while, not specifying that any of it is considered sin in God's eyes. You did not address this...


- Why would Christians need to abolish slavery unless they thought it was wrong? Jesus seems to be neutral to the entire subject, as He allows for it. Why boast about Christians abolishing slavery, if you too do not think it's 'bad'? - You did not address this...
 
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Halbhh

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Negative sir. You furnished a scripture passage letting people know that the master may come at any time, and to act accordingly. Also, that slaves are not to beat other slaves. That only the master may beat their slaves. This says nothing of what I responded to: (i.e.) Please address the furnished bullet points below:

- God regulates slavery in only that if you are an Israelite, there exists tightened rules (to certain a degree). If you are not a Jew, all bets are off, practically, for life. You did not address this....

- God allows for slavery (then and now). It is not considered sin to own humans as property and beat them. You did not address this...


- Please provide a verse where Jesus disallows for a slave master to own a slave for life, provided you are not a Jew? You did not address this....


- Jesus does not define what a slave is and is not. Allowing humans to impose slavery however they choose, all-the-while, not specifying that any of it is considered sin in God's eyes. You did not address this...


- Why would Christians need to abolish slavery unless they thought it was wrong? Jesus seems to be neutral to the entire subject, as He allows for it. Why boast about Christians abolishing slavery, if you too do not think it's 'bad'? - You did not address this...

Ah, much more concrete then? Ok.

The Old Testament Law was progressed (or pick your term: fulfilled, perfected) in the New Covenant by Christ, where He took the intent of the Old Law, and perfected and extended it, making it further reaching. This can even be summarized into 1 sentence (!) --
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Any questions on this first one?

On the 2nd one: If a Christian today owns slaves and does not free them (except perhaps in very unusual circumstances where freeing them would clearly result in their quick deaths) , that 'Christian' (in name only Christian) will go to hell, as a certainty. For breaking the progressed new perfection of the Law, just above.

Any questions on the 2nd one?

I bet it's wise to stop here and see if there is understanding, or not.
 
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Halbhh

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- Please provide a verse where Jesus disallows for a slave master to own a slave for life, provided you are not a Jew? You did not address this....

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

If you don't at first see it there have been plenty that did not it appears....

Would you like to look closer? -- to discuss what "In everything" means?
(Philemon would show an example of "In everything" actually means, as also would passages telling converted slaves to for the moment remain with their unconverted (e.g. for instance "harsh") masters in order to convert them.)

How about the term "others" -- do you have a question on what the word means there? It's reasonable to ask.

It's just as radical and world-upside-down-turning as it appears to be. There is a reason the religious authorities of the day were infuriated at Jesus.
 
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cvanwey

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Ah, much more concrete then? Ok.

The Old Testament Law was progressed (or pick your term: fulfilled, perfected) in the New Covenant by Christ, where He took the intent of the Old Law, and perfected and extended it, making it further reaching. This can even be summarized into 1 sentence (!) --
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Any questions on this first one?

On the 2nd one: If a Christian today owns slaves and does not free them (except perhaps in very unusual circumstances where freeing them would clearly result in their quick deaths) , that 'Christian' (in name only Christian) will go to hell, as a certainty. For breaking the progressed new perfection of the Law, just above.

Any questions on the 2nd one?

I bet it's wise to stop here and see if there is understanding, or not.

Then simply precede to post #220 please. HINT: You keep referencing Mark 7:12, as I also mentioned prior mark 12:31.

Slaves are considered property. Property is a possession. Humans are not possessed by other humans, if you are also going to use the 'same mouth' to preach equality.

So please try again, by starting over with all of the requested bullet points, from scratch :)

(I do not even need to go so far as to how beating others for life contradicts the golden rule for most.)
 
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Halbhh

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Then simply precede to post #220 please. HINT: You keep referencing Mark 7:12, as I also mentioned prior mark 12:31.

Slaves are considered property. Property is a possession. Humans are not possessed by other humans, if you are also going to use the 'same mouth' to preach equality.

So please try again, by starting over with all of the requested bullet points, from scratch :)

(I do not even need to go so far as to how beating others for life contradicts the golden rule for most.)

Do you mean you understand that:

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

already, by itself, is enough for us Christians, today, and anyone also, to understand we cannot own slaves (and all involuntary labor of any kind even), cannot take advantage of other people?

Even before all the many other additional scriptures?

Yes? If so, very good.

In that case, you admit the New Testament then, with extra clarity from Christ, prohibits involuntary servitude, once the slave owner is converted.

You'd be all the way there, if you can see that. Have "eyes that see" -- look and see.
 
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cvanwey

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Do you mean you understand that:

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

already, by itself, is enough for us Christians, today, and anyone also, to understand we cannot own slaves (and all involuntary labor of any kind even), cannot take advantage of other people?

Even before all the many other additional scriptures?

Yes? If so, very good.

In that case, you admit the New Testament then, with extra clarity from Christ, prohibits involuntary servitude, once the slaver owner is converted.

You'd be all the way there, if you can see that.

To clarify, are you simply asking if I know what this specific verse means? If so, then yes. I'm assuming your response is just to clarify, once and for all, what verses Matthew 7:12, Mark 12:31 mean, or even from Confucius's rendition of the 'golden rule', right?

Again, if so, then yes. Please precede by answering all my questions (bullet points).

Thank you
 
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Halbhh

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To clarify, are you simply asking if I know what this specific verse means? If so, then yes. I'm assuming your response is just to clarify, once and for all, what verses Matthew 7:12, Mark 12:31 mean, or even from Confucius's rendition of the 'golden rule', right?

Again, if so, then yes. Please precede by answering all my questions (bullet points).

Thank you

When you write in #220: "Slaves are considered property.
Humans own property.
Property does not possess human rights, as property is a possession.

Since a slave is considered property, they do not possess the same exclusive 'rights' as non slaved humans.
"
-- Christ has overturned this, ended it.

We are all equal in Him, we learn in the New Testament. All --

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Therefore, Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. applies fully -- involuntary servitude of others to us is ended for true Christians, entirely.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As long as you were/are a Hebrew.

Otherwise, it would appear 'God" allows/sanctions/condones a lifetime of slavery, with virtually no restrictions in 'punishment', just short of death.

As a disclaimer, this topic would never rear it's 'ugly' head, if there existed even one verse in the Bible stating something to the affect of, 'don't own humans as property.' Or, never mentioned slavery at all. But instead, it provides the contrary.

As another disclaimer, I'm not addressing the 'moral' implications. I'm instead mentioning this topic because when 'slavery' is thrown out there, from a non-believer, the believer quite often uses the word 'regulate'. Which implies, at least to me, that the believer too does not agree with 'slavery' and is using 'apologetics tactics'.

I know this topic is anything but new, but I have to bring it up, because it would more likely appear that such verses were written by humans, whom simply passed them off as God pronouncements. Which is yet another reason non-believers can so easily read from this book and not take it too seriously.

Thoughts?

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus at a number of occasions points to a fuller understanding of certain aspects of the Torah; for example that the prohibition against murder is more than just murder, but also means not holding anger against another, etc. In one instance He says that divorce was permitted in the past because of the hardness of human hearts--but that divorce shouldn't happen (this does not mean that one is supposed to remain in an abusive or toxic relationship, that would be going to the opposite extreme). So, to that end, we know that what was permitted does not necessarily translate into what is itself good.

And, no, the early Church didn't directly tackle the institution of slavery; but largely accepted it as an inevitable dimension of civilization; though the apostles did argue that there should be no difference in treatment between slaves and masters, so while the institution was not attacked its significance was to be rendered moot. In his letter to the Ephesians St. Paul effectively argues for the erasure of certain social boundaries under the principle of "submit to one another in love", it wasn't wives simply submitting to their husbands, or children to their parents, or slaves to their masters; but also husbands submitting to their wives, parents to their children, and masters to their slaves. The principle was mutual, reciprocal love.

The idea of trying to expect people from radically different times and cultures than our own to conform to our expectations simply seems silly to me. I think liberal democracy is a good thing, I also think universal suffrage is a good thing. So how come Christians two thousand years ago didn't seek to advocate for universal suffrage in the Roman Empire? I suspect that answer is simply that this didn't cross their minds, the historical and social conditions in which the idea of universal suffrage arose in the modern era did not exist until the modern era.

Why didn't God command universal suffrage? I have no idea.
Why didn't God forbid slavery? I have no idea.

Does God's silence mean I can't oppose slavery and support universal suffrage? No. I think these principles are rooted in the moral and ethical principles of my religion, to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, to love my neighbor as myself, and to esteem others more highly than myself. Those principles are baked into my religion; and so my convictions--as a modern person--concerning aspects of a just society find a root within my religious principles.

The idea that I have to subscribe to either a bronze age idea of social structuring, or a classical age idea of social structuring simply because those are the historical contexts in which my religion's scriptures were written is an odd idea to me.

-CryptoLUtheran
 
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Well, back now. And may I say, @cvanwey , it's been a pleasure seeing you handle this issue! There's little for me to add, but I would like to point out one thing.
@Halbhh refers to "progressing" the Old Testament laws. The idea being that God does disapprove of slavery, but wished to guide humanity away from it gradually.
Yeah. Great plan, God.
Do Christians never seem to notice that God is really, really bad at doing the things He means to do? I mean, it's like every time he tries something he gets it wrong. He created a perfect world; it immediately went wrong. He tried to establish a society; it ended with His having to sweep it all clean by drowning almost every living thing; He decided to incarnate, to come down to His people to set them straight; they promptly killed Him. He commanded his disciples to spread His word around the world; and now, after two thousand years, most humans are still worshipping false Gods, or none at all, and the ones who are Christians are splintered into literally thousands of factions, many of whom consider the others to be heretics, and who have spent centuries saying bloody wars against each other.

To take slavery as an example:
So, slavery is a big part of human society. And God, of course, knows that it's wrong. What does He do? Well, He could simply work a miracle and stop it. He did similar things to free his people from Egypt. Or He could establish rules against slavery, backed up by His divine power. Or, He could at least tell people that slavery is wrong.
Now @Halbhh seems to think it's wrong of me to "judge" God, or to "tell Him what to do". A d, of course, I'm not an omnipotent and omniscient being. But halbhh is the one who said God has a plan, and if he says it worked, then he is judging God to have been successful; in this sense, we are all allowed to "judge" (as in "form an opinion on" God). And apparently the plan was this:
1. Establish laws encouraging the worst forms of slavery. Say nothing at all showing disapproval of slavery.
2. Allow the system of slavery to prosper for centuries.
3. Come down in the form of Jesus and not say anything directly against slavery (you notice that neither Jesus not God are any about expressing their opinions on things they disapprove of; but never slavery).
4. Hope that humans will figure it out for themselves, based on the vague and impractical fast-food advice that Jesus imparted.
And how did that plan work out?
Well, we had centuries of slavery in Biblical time, and centuries after; and then we had the modern trade, which flourished, partly because of the commandments endorsing slavery in the Bible. And of course if any of the Abrahamic religions ever want to start up the slave trade again, they know that God approves of slavery.
In short? Centuries upon centuries of the most appalling abuse of fellow humans by people who believed in God.

Saying that God disapproves of slavery or that He has a plan to stop it is, quite simply, pure projection. Where in the Bible does God say "slavery is bad"? No - you think that slavery is wrong, and you think that God is good, so you think that God just also think that slavery is wrong. But He never says that, and the stories in the Bible show the opposite. Don't try to make God your puppet. Let Him speak for Himself.
Exodus 21: best your slaves as much as you like, says God. Just don't kill them.

I'd say it's time for you to face facts and admit that God approves of slavery, but I'm simply not sure if you can. Can you still be a Christian if you think God can do evil?
 
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We here tend to know the passages better than you are guessing.

When you say "No. He is saying God allows for slavery. Now and always. Period." that's just from having a lot less extensive reading in scripture, and I don't blame you for that. I'm just saying to expect to see new things you don't expect in scripture here.

Jesus Himself even used precisely beating slaves as the instance, the general metaphor, for evil.

The kind of evil sufficient to deserve hell. His words.

Christ Himself.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 “But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
--Matthew 24 NASB

Beating slaves as the chosen example that stands for all evil.

If continued in, leading to the "second death", the place with "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Unless you want to unsee it, that's just the reality -- He Himself used beating slaves as the epitome of what is wrong -- evil -- causing one to go to hell.

You can see that wording, or refuse to see it, but it's just the reality of what is in scripture, and it's not the only passage that tells us that mistreating slaves is wrong, in the New Testament.

In fact, we are instructed to go much further than only to cease beating slaves. They were in time to be not only free, but much better than only freed. Much further.
I think this is an excellent illustrative example of how some Christians may know their verses without understanding them. Jesus was not saying that beating slaves is evil. He is saying that not being ready is evil -or, possibly, that it is evil for slaves to wrongly best their fellow slaves.
 
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Halbhh

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I think this is an excellent illustrative example of how some Christians may know their verses without understanding them. Jesus has not saying that beating slaves is evil. He is saying that not being ready is evil -or, possibly, that it is evil for slaves to wrongly best their fellow slaves.
In order to understand scriptures better you yourself would have to read them with a listening attitude all the way through full books, sympathetically trying to get what was the intended meaning. That's very radically different than approaching the text with an intent to prove an idea, or find support for an idea. He does indeed mean that we are to be ready, and to treat each other well -- you did get that part correct (if you got that part).

And, though you might not expect or like it, He indeed does definitely use the instance of 'beat the other slaves' as the particular epitome of doing wrong towards others, of evil towards others.

And He says such evil will result instead of eternal Life in the opposite outcome, the one with "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

But, you'll perhaps possibly never get the full meanings, full imports, by listening to me. It may be you could only if you yourself listen to the words in the gospels in a more open way, with openness to learn new things, not with an intent to only support a favored idea. That takes a real humility and real desire to learn.
 
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gaara4158

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I think this is an excellent illustrative example of how some Christians may know their verses without understanding them. Jesus has not saying that beating slaves is evil. He is saying that not being ready is evil -or, possibly, that it is evil for slaves to wrongly best their fellow slaves.
Not to mention he casually glosses over the recommended punishment for misbehaving as a slave - being cut into pieces!
 
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Halbhh

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1. Establish laws encouraging the worst forms of slavery. Say nothing at all showing disapproval of slavery.

I wonder since you say "worst forms of slavery" yet it's very easy to find out the initial regulations included:

Exodus 21:26 If a man strikes and blinds the eye of his manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free as compensation for the eye.
Exodus 21:32 If the ox gores a manservant or maidservant, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of that servant, and the ox must be stoned.

and even for escaped slaves:

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master.
16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them. -- Deuteronomy ch 23

But you still feel yourself it's the "worst forms", right?

It seems you feel there should be more, immediately, at the start, right? I wonder if you are really asking:

Why didn't God say: "Do perfect Good all the time, in all things, always, and when you take slaves in war (instead of letting the defeated starve), only have them as slaves for a month only, and treat them like a brother instead of a servant"

Would that do it for you?

Aren't you really asking:

Why is there any evil at all in the world? Why wasn't it all ended long ago?

Put another way, why wasn't
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.
The very first law, right off the bat?



That would be a lot more interesting of a question, and it's really speaking to your premise I think -- that perfect law should have been from the very first instance.

In a way, the entire Bible is about that question.
 
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Halbhh

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Not to mention he casually glosses over the recommended punishment for misbehaving as a slave - being cut into pieces!
ah, that passage from the New Testament is Christ telling us that pastors/leaders in churches who mistreat those they are meant to help will suffer severely, even worse than others that do evils.

And interestingly, the particular illustration Christ chose to represent all mistreatment of others was beating slaves....

48 “But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Which was precisely the instance of mistreatment being asked about above -- that slaves could be beaten. quoting: "....Other than this, you are allowed to be kept for life, beaten for life..." (post #219 Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!) as a question for us to answer above.

Well, we have a definite answer.

Christ uses exactly that -- beating slaves -- as representing evil that leads to hell (and there the extinction of the "second death") as the punishment after the Day of Judgement.

No less.
 
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