Is there a Biblical and/or Historic Church defense of on demand abortion?

SkyWriting · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
Back to that again.

Where in the verses you present is it implied we submit to evil?

That wasn't the topic...but we can go there

Matthew 5:38-42
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Proverbs 20:22
Do not say, "I will avenge this evil!" Wait on the LORD, and He will deliver you.

Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well.

Luke 6:30
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I amthe LORD.

Isaiah 50:6
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
I wanted to start this to strip the politics out. Are there pro-choice Christians who can positively answer the OP question?

Can one be both Christian and pro-abortion?

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
That wasn't the topic...but we can go there

Matthew 5:38-42
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Proverbs 20:22
Do not say, "I will avenge this evil!" Wait on the LORD, and He will deliver you.

Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well.

Luke 6:30
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I amthe LORD.

Isaiah 50:6
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

How are any of those verses support for abortion? Every one of those plucked verses deal with those who are attempting harm or evil to those conscious of the wrongdoing.

How does this apply to an innocent life yet born?

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Can one be both Christian and pro-abortion?

An excellent question.

On demand abortion is the premeditated termination of a human being.

Does that help in coming to an answer?

SkyWriting · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
Back to that again.
Where in the verses you present is it implied we submit to evil?

redleghunter said:
How are any of those verses support for abortion? Every one of those plucked verses deal with those who are attempting harm or evil to those conscious of the wrongdoing. How does this apply to an innocent life yet born?

You change the subject with each of my postings if you don't like the results.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

the sake of morality
the sake of the unborn
the sake of mothers
the sake of neighbors
the sake of your soul
the sake of peace
the sake of society
the sake of conscience.

When Paul wrote this, there were rules about the unborn.

FenderTL5 · Apr 5, 2019

HTacianas said:
There is nothing in the history of the Church that even remotely supports abortion. It is universally condemned as murder by every Christian who ever commented on it.

Agree

"..the second commandment of the teaching is this:
"Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide..."
The Didache

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
You change the subject with each of my postings.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

You have yet to make an argument that those plucked verses support abortion on demand. Which is the OP topic.

You have created a dichotomy which is frankly ridiculous.

If a national leader decreed that all hospitals be closed and that all citizens would not render medical help to others, in your model a Christian would have to obey government instead of Christ.

SkyWriting · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
An excellent question.

On demand abortion is the premeditated termination of a human being.

Does that help in coming to an answer?

Perhaps do to a premeditated rape of a child or stepchild in ones own family.

SkyWriting · Apr 5, 2019

FenderTL5 said:
Agree

"..the second commandment of the teaching is this:
"Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide..."
The Didache

It's not a murder under local laws.

Ecclesiastes 8:2-9
2 I say, “Keep the command of the king because of the oath before God. 3“Do not be in a hurry to leave him. Do not join in an evil matter, for he will do whatever he pleases.” 4 Since the word of the king is authoritative, who will say to him, “What are you doing?”
5 He who keeps a royal command experiences no trouble, for a wise heart knows the proper time and procedure. 6 For there is a proper time and procedure for every delight, though a man’s trouble is heavy upon him. 7 If no one knows what will happen, who can tell him when it will happen? 8 No man has authority to restrain the wind with the wind, or authority over the day of death; and there is no discharge in the time of war, and evil will not deliver those who practice it. 9 All this I have seen and applied my mind to every deed that has been done under the sun wherein a man has exercised authority over another man to his hurt.

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Perhaps do to a premeditated rape of a child or stepchild in ones own family.

Speaking of changing subjects...what evil has the child in the womb committed to warrant the death penalty?

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
It's not a murder under local laws.

Ecclesiastes 8:2-9
2 I say, “Keep the command of the king because of the oath before God. 3“Do not be in a hurry to leave him. Do not join in an evil matter, for he will do whatever he pleases.” 4 Since the word of the king is authoritative, who will say to him, “What are you doing?”
5 He who keeps a royal command experiences no trouble, for a wise heart knows the proper time and procedure. 6 For there is a proper time and procedure for every delight, though a man’s trouble is heavy upon him. 7 If no one knows what will happen, who can tell him when it will happen? 8 No man has authority to restrain the wind with the wind, or authority over the day of death; and there is no discharge in the time of war, and evil will not deliver those who practice it. 9 All this I have seen and applied my mind to every deed that has been done under the sun wherein a man has exercised authority over another man to his hurt.

Once again this is a bizarre defense.

If a king tells you to slay your entire family to prove your loyalty would you obey?

FenderTL5 · Apr 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
It's not a murder under local laws.

I understand, but it is still prohibited in the teaching of the Apostles (previously quoted, also see Acts 2:42).

Ecclesiastes 8:2-9
"2...Do not join in an evil matter...”

Unless the King is commanding you to get an abortion, then I fail to understand your intended meaning of the entire quote. It clearly specifies to avoid evil and abortion is evil, even if legal.

FireDragon76 · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
I wanted to start this to strip the politics out. Are there pro-choice Christians who can positively answer the OP question?

I have heard the Puritans permitted abortion up until "quickening". They took those laws from English common law, which also permitted early abortion:

Scarlet Letters: Getting the History of Abortion and Contraception Right - Center for American Progress

I've read that before in the past.

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I have heard the Puritans permitted abortion up until "quickening". They took those laws from English common law, which also permitted early abortion:

Scarlet Letters: Getting the History of Abortion and Contraception Right - Center for American Progress

I've read that before in the past.

Where did English common law derive the “quickening?”

FireDragon76 · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
Where did English common law derive the “quickening?”

Quickening involves the movement of the child in the womb.

I suspect it actually came from some Church canon, originating with medieval speculation based on Aristotle about when the rational soul is present in the body.

See this article. It explains how quickening was used in the middle ages to parse out what was, and wasn't, a criminal abortion, and what pentalties to apply:

Roman Catholic Church Quickening | The Embryo Project Encyclopedia

By 1588, the Catholic Church dropped the distinction of a fetus based on quickening.

redleghunter · Apr 5, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Quickening involves the movement of the child in the womb.

I suspect it actually came from some Church canon, originating with medieval speculation based on Aristotle about when the rational soul is present in the body.

See this article. It explains how quickening was used in the middle ages to parse out what was, and wasn't, a criminal abortion, and what pentalties to apply:

Roman Catholic Church Quickening | The Embryo Project Encyclopedia

By 1588, the Catholic Church dropped the distinction of a fetus based on quickening.

Which was not based on Scriptures and church history. I think @FenderTL5 made this clear earlier.

FireDragon76 · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
Which was not based on Scriptures and church history. I think @FenderTL5 made this clear earlier.

By using Aristotle, the Church was actually attempting to take the science of the time seriously.

FireDragon76 · Apr 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
Which was not based on Scriptures and church history. I think @FenderTL5 made this clear earlier.

BTW, the Didache was unknown to the West until the 19th century. So in our tradition, there is recognition of degrees of gravity for abortion.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
By using Aristotle, the Church was actually attempting to take the science of the time seriously.

Was Aristotle correct on this point and his view of the natural world?

FireDragon76 · Apr 5, 2019

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Was Aristotle correct on this point and his view of the natural world?

At least it was based on primitive science rather than somebody in 1588 declaring it to be murder because he could.

Early abortion was not even strictly prohibited by Catholic canon law until 1869, with the exception of a few years after 1588.

Catholic Church and abortion - Wikipedia

Is there a Biblical and/or Historic Church defense of on demand abortion?

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