Bold Prediction: Over-the-phone ministered healing to a specific member of this community!

Alithis said:

i wondered when this one would come up ... its an argument that is the epitome of the unbelieving attitude .

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If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't begin your arguments with ad hominem. Attacks upon me personally are the weakest way in which to argue for your perspective.

My views on healing don't arise from an "unbelieving attitude" but from a more careful exegesis of Scripture than you appear to have made.

Alithis said:

It flies in the face of the great commission and the signs that shall follow those that believe

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The Great Commission does not entail miraculous healing. And miraculous signs followed those responsible for the establishment of the Early Church and the writing of the New Testament. Healings helped to confirm the divine authority of the apostles and the divine nature of Christ. Since the Church is well-established now and the canon of the New Testament long ago written and closed, the miraculous is not nearly as vital as it was in the times described in the New Testament.

Alithis said:

it is, as with most theologies formed in unbelief ,based upon an apparent exception .

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Well, merely saying so doesn't make it so. Your attempt here to poison the well is both obvious and impotent. My "theology formed in unbelief" is firmly - and correctly - grounded in Scripture. I can't say the same about yours.

Alithis said:

the lord Jesus healed none other then ALL those who came to him . expressing it was his very nature to be wiling to do so .

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And what of all those sick at the Pool of Bethesda that Christ ignored (John 5:2-9), healing not one of them, except the single crippled man who had not even asked Christ for healing? Where was Christ's "willingness to heal" then? It seems very evident in the story that healing was not the priority for Christ that you want to make it out to be.

Alithis said:

no one ever said any one is immune - our flesh is preserved alive by the power of the holy Spirit until we vacate it . but the flesh itself will not inherit the kingdom of god the flesh is corruptible and corrupted .it is prone to sickness and death . no ones immune . but it is always the will of God to heal .it is the divine nature of God to do GOOD .

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God doing good does not always involve His giving us physical well-being. The examples of God's will entailing physical harm to His own are many in Scripture. There is Paul's "thorn in the flesh," and the martyrdom of John the Baptist, and the Twelve, and, of course, the crucifixion of Christ. God accomplished good through the destruction of the physical well-being of all of these men. It is not accurate, then, to say that the good God does always benefits us physically.

Alithis said:

Timothy had a stomach ailment .. (thine often infirmities) .. bad water , local diet etc . and there is NO record that he continued to be that way and there is no record he died of it . and it is with the others you listed the same .

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THis is a facile and dismissive response to what I pointed out about those saints of God who were recorded in the New Testament as having fallen ill. Epaphroditus was traveling with Paul when he became sick. Why didn't Paul heal him immediately instead of leaving him behind to recover from his illness naturally? And what about Dorcas who was sick for a time and then died? Why wasn't some believer able to heal her before her passing? You skip over providing a reasonable answer to these questions. Why is that?

Alithis said:

James give great insight stating that for double mindedness and sinful motive you do not have what you ask because you ask with bad motive .. sin always brings a degrading of all life and ultimately death .

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Yes, and? What does this have to do with miraculous healing? As I've shown, not everyone in Scripture who should've been healed, if your view is correct, was. None of them were said to have been double-minded or guilty of sinful motives.

Alithis said:

so when we fail to do so let us not come up with theologies that are based upon unbelief . Rather let us humble ourselves and go to god saying lord .. what am I getting wrong ? because YOU are the Lord who Changes not .

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See above.

Strong in Him said:

In the matter of healing, my experience - and I'm not saying you're doing this - is that Christians sometimes pray for physical healing, physical healing doesn't immediately happen and the tendency is to look for reasons why not. This often results in blaming the sick person in some way; i.e "have you unconfessed sins?", "did you have enough faith?", "have you claimed your healing?" etc etc.
How many Christians say, "well first, we need to ask God what he wants us to pray for", or ask God to administer healing in whatever area of the person's life that he wishes to?

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We cannot base our beliefs off of the successes, failures and actions of another. God Heals period....
There is no good reason to try and make anyone doubt that he will heal every time you ask, other than to place the very cause of non-healing in there heart: Doubt.

Jesus said :Anything you ask in my name will be given. Whatsoever thing.......ask and it will be given you. There were no exceptions. Yet those against prosperity exclude material things from Jesus's exclamation.. Now we are excluding Healing from Jesus' exclamation. Soon we will just have to replace 'Any thing' and 'whatsoever thing' with "Somethings" and Sometimes whatsoever thing." But woe to the one who adds or subtract.

WE need not speculate why others do this and that and not receive.....we only need to examine ourselves and figure out why it doesnt work for us......once we find the reason, we can help others overcome as well. There is no value in judging the heart of another...because we cant views it's contents.

aiki said:

Since the Church is well-established now and the canon of the New Testament long written and closed, the miraculous is not nearly as vital as it was in the times described in the New Testament.

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So God was just using all those healings to prove a point? Now that he has made His point, he has no need to concern himself with the sick?

This is the tragedy of Cessationism. Powerless Christianity. A form of godliness that denies God's power (and his concern) over sickness.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

aiki said:

My views on healing don't arise from an "unbelieving attitude" but from a more careful exegesis of Scripture than you appear to have made.

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Does that mean that you pray for the sick, or you don't pray for the sick?
Is "careful exegesis" preventing you from praying for the sick? (unbelief)
I'm more concerned with your unbelieving actions than your unbelieving attitude.

aiki said:

You've carefully avoided explaining how healing in the Atonement failed for Trophimus, Epaphroditus, and Dorcas. Why is that? They were all believers and should have been immune to illness by virtue of the Atonement, right? Epaphroditus was actually traveling with Paul when he fell ill. But they weren't all supernaturally preserved from sickness. Paul didn't pray for Epaphroditus' miraculous healing. This, it seems to me, puts a very big crimp in the healing-in-the-Atonement doctrine.

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These are good points you brought up.........except.....when I looked into them, all the greek words backing the terms "ill" and "Sick," in relation to the people you mentioned. meant to be old and feeble..... and had nothing to do with having a disease. Nor were the same words ever used in any other place to refer to one who had an illness or to describe an illness.

Maybe you can find more examples that could lend to the argument that God doesnt heal everyone who asks? The ones you've given so far relates to Old age....and noone has made the argument here that God stops people from getting old.......

Alithis said:

no? i think you've mistaken what you perceive faith to be .
It is not a mystical thing you have but an action you take based upon what you truly believe .
and it is certainly required of us asked of us and commanded of us . for without it it is impossible to please God
simply because if there is no action taken based upon believing gods word then one does not truly believe Gods word .

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God healed me without any action at all on my part. It wasn't during a healing service or time of prayer - I didn't even believe the person who told me that God wanted to make me well.

It was all God, not me.

Natsumi Lam said:

Where did you derive this formula?

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It's not a formula. If we say the requirements of something have been met, we mean the conditions have been fulfilled.
Something is required of us before we go somewhere, or receive something.

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Saint Steven said:

Imagine what might have happened if we had rallied around the topic starter in full support and discussed the particulars later. If we would have flooded the throne of grace with our outcry for healing in Jesus' name. If we would have held off with our criticisms for one day, one day. Someone may have been rejoicing in restored hearing today. And Johnny would still be with us. What did we get instead? Was it worth it? What can we learn from this?

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We have a very cunning Enemy my friend. Bringing people down and causing division is his speciality.

Johnny was beginning to exercise his faith and had lots of zeal. As a watchman I did raise my concern and asked him to pray about it. Imagine if you guys had listened instead of encouraging him to go ahead - then Johnny would still be with us.

I Tell you the truth Saint Steven - I got pulled into a trap similar to that. I gave Johnny some very good instructions in post 83 as to what I think he should now do. Hopefully Johnny will come back and Jesus name will be Glorified. God will provide a solution for Johnny - are we in agreement ?

All things work for Good...

Saint Steven said:

So God was just using all those healings to prove a point?

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In the New Testament, the miracles Jesus and the apostles performed were first and foremost evidence of the divine authority (in the case of the disciples) or divine nature (in Christ's case) of the one performing the miracle. This was their primary purpose. Such evidence was necessary given the claims and the purposes to which Christ and the apostles were dedicated.

Saint Steven said:

Now that he has made His point, he has no need to concern himself with the sick?

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No. God can and does heal today. But the idea that He is obliged to, that He will heal whenever we want Him to, is not supported by Scripture.

Saint Steven said:

This is the tragedy of Cessationism. Powerless Christianity.

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This is a non sequitur. A Cessationist perspective does not equate to powerless Christianity. I am not a hard Cessationist but the ones I know who are look for a greater demonstration of God's power than that revealed in miraculous healing in changed lives, in the transformation of a person's character, beliefs, desires and values. As far as they are concerned, a person being saved is a greater miracle than a person healed of cancer. And the change the Holy Spirit works in a saved person, overcoming their biases, filters, history, habits and self-deceptions is a greater miracle still. I agree with them. I don't, though, hold to the idea that God never heals.

Saint Steven said:

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

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As I have demonstrated, my point of view on healing rests in what I see in Scripture, not merely in "human wisdom."

Saint Steven said:

Does that mean that you pray for the sick, or you don't pray for the sick?

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Of course I pray for the sick. It doesn't follow from what I've offered of my views on healing that I shouldn't bother. That's how others of alternate views like to Strawman my position, trying to squeeze me into their false dichotomy of always heal or never heal.

Saint Steven said:

Is "careful exegesis" preventing you from praying for the sick? (unbelief)
I'm more concerned with your unbelieving actions than your unbelieving attitude.

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You have no idea of the content of my life. And my words in this thread don't give you ground to assert legitimately that I'm "unbelieving." You might want to apply your concern to your readiness to jump to unfounded conclusions.

My exegesis of Scripture concerning healing is not tantamount to unbelief whatever you may want to assert. If you won't accept what Scripture says that isn't a problem with me but with you.

RaymondG said:

These are good points you brought up.........except.....when I looked into them, all the greek words backing the terms "ill" and "Sick," in relation to the people you mentioned. meant to be old and feeble..... and had nothing to do with having a disease.

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This is so patently false it astonishes me! In Paul's reference to Epaphroditus in Philippians 2, the word he uses for sick is "astheneo," meaning "Weak or feeble; sick, impotent..." - all things that result from a serious illness. Epaphroditus recovered from his illness which clearly indicates he was not merely suffering the effects of old age. "Astheneo" is the same word Paul uses in reference to the sickness of Trophimus, too. "Astheneo" is never translated as "elderly" or "aged" but "be weak" twelve times, "be sick" ten times, and "sick" seven times. As well, there is nothing in the context of the instances I've pointed to concerning Epaphroditus, Trophimus and Dorcas that even hints at their illnesses being merely old age.

RaymondG said:

Maybe you can find more examples that could lend to the argument that God doesnt heal everyone who asks?

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Maybe you could deal more honestly with Scripture instead of twisting it to conform to what you want to believe.

FIRESTORM314 said:

… are we in agreement ?

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No. Not by a long shot.
Nothing personal. I just disagree.

Johnny had already made a stand. He put it all on the line. No turning back.
His honor was at stake. If he backed out, who would ever trust him again?
Would he even be able to live with himself?

He would be left in the corner wearing the dunce hat for the rest of his days.
I know, I know... that's a bit dramatic. But...

aiki said:

In the New Testament, the miracles Jesus and the apostles performed were first and foremost evidence of the divine authority (in the case of the disciples) or divine nature (in Christ's case) of the one performing the miracle. This was their primary purpose. Such evidence was necessary given the claims and the purposes to which Christ and the apostles were dedicated.

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That's the Cessationist theory. What does Jesus say?

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.

Mark 8:12
He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

aiki said:

No. God can and does heal today. But the idea that He is obliged to, that He will heal whenever we want Him to, is not supported by Scripture.

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How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

aiki said:

This is so patently false it astonishes me!

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I suspect that you say this to all you deem ignorant and unlearned...... Those whose knowledge pails in comparison to your perception of your own. But I find no fault in it. Statements like these do not move me.....but if you believe it helps your case or how you are viewed by others, please continue to preface your words with them.

aiki said:

In Paul's reference to Epaphroditus in Philippians 2, the word he uses for sick is "astheneo," meaning "Weak or feeble; sick, impotent..." - all things that result from a serious illness.

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It just so happens that all these things can result from Old age as well, can they not? Can an old person not be considered weak and feeble without having an illness...... which you claim, was not healed by God?

aiki said:

. Epaphroditus recovered from his illness which clearly indicates he was not merely suffering the effects of old age.

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Do you care to share the scripture that states this person recovered, instead of having us just take your word, or search for the passage you are referring to, in hopes that we miss something so to enforce your belief that your knowledge is superior?

aiki said:

"Astheneo" is the same word Paul uses in reference to the sickness of Trophimus, too.

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It just so happens that it is also the same word used almost every time there is a passage stating that one is weak(Astheneo) in the faith......and when it states that the one who is weak (Astheneo), eat not meat. So were they diseased in the faith? Was the one who does not eat meat.....doing so because of an illness......

It seems that you are the one who twist the scripture to align to what you believe. I made no exclamations concerning the meanings of anything.....just pointed to the fact that the same word you use to spread the belief that God doesnt heal everyone, also means weak and feeble.....and is not always, if ever, use to indicate a disease.

aiki said:

"Astheneo" is never translated as "elderly" or "aged" but "be weak" twelve times, "be sick" ten times, and "sick" seven times.

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I never stated that it was ever translated elderly or aged......Is this another way to place your knowledge above someone else? And yes I agree that the same one word translate into different English words....Which is why I would not be so quick to claim that God wont do what He said he would based off of one occurrence of the word.

aiki said:

As well, there is nothing in the context of the instances I've pointed to concerning Epaphroditus, Trophimus and Dorcas that even hints at their illnesses being merely old age.

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There is also nothing in the context of those instances that hints to your exclamation that God doesnt heal everyone......Yet it is ok for you to make that claim, but if I mention that the word can mean weak and feeble, I am the one twisting scripture to match my belief?

aiki said:

Maybe you could deal more honestly with Scripture instead of twisting it to conform to what you want to believe.

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Your words are excellent......Since you seem to have no respect for mine....Ill use your own to answer the statement above:

aiki said:

If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't begin your arguments with ad hominem. Attacks upon me personally are the weakest way in which to argue for your perspective.

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aiki said:

I am not a hard Cessationist but the ones I know who are look for a greater demonstration of God's power than that revealed in miraculous healing...

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Seriously?

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

aiki said:

Of course I pray for the sick. It doesn't follow from what I've offered of my views on healing that I shouldn't bother. That's how others of alternate views like to Strawman my position, trying to squeeze me into their false dichotomy of always heal or never heal.

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Did you uphold Johnny or pass?

aiki said:

My exegesis of Scripture concerning healing is not tantamount to unbelief whatever you may want to assert.

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You admitted that you are a Cessationist. That's enough for me.
Why bother to pray for the sick if the gift of healing is dead?

Saint Steven said:

You admitted that you are a Cessationist. That's enough for me.
Why bother to pray for the sick if the gift of healing is dead?

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I see little value in praying when we believe the answer could be "No." This just hinders the desire to learn to pray, or ask God to teach us........for even no answer would be an answer to us. And we would never know if we are Praying to the living God or an Idol.....

Imagine if we did the Hezekiah test? Told one to pray to their wood statue while we pray to our God. Would we tell them that they werent answered because their god is not real and we WERE answered but the answer was "no"?

RaymondG said:

I see little value in praying when we believe the answer could be "No." This just hinders the desire to learn to pray, or ask God to teach us........

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Amen to that.

Prayer for the sick from one who doesn't expect healing.
"Lord, if it be your will... please heal this sick person. If not, we accept this sickness for what it is and will endure to the end. - Amen" - Zzzz...

Prayer for the sick from one who does expect healing.
"This sickness must leave RIGHT NOW in Jesus' name! I bind you Satan! Get your hands OFF this child of God NOW!, in Jesus' name. You have no right to torment this precious individual! Away in Jesus' name! We pray healing and restoration and good health over this individual RIGHT NOW in Jesus' name! - AMEN!!!!!!!!!"

Saint Steven said:

Amen to that.

Prayer for the sick from one who doesn't expect healing.
"Lord, if it be your will... please heal this sick person. If not, we accept this sickness for what it is and will endure to the end. - Amen" - Zzzz...

Prayer for the sick from one who does expect healing.
"This sickness must leave RIGHT NOW in Jesus' name! I bind you Satan! Get your hands OFF this child of God NOW!, in Jesus' name. You have no right to torment this precious individual! Away in Jesus' name! We pray healing and restoration and good health over this individual RIGHT NOW in Jesus' name! - AMEN!!!!!!!!!"

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I would like to add another prayer for one who would be healed:
"I Am Healthy"........