Bold Prediction: Over-the-phone ministered healing to a specific member of this community!

Ken C. said:

I think God would want all His children healed. Wouldn't you want your son or daughter healed, or don't you care. I happen to believe our Father loves us. God does not use sickness or illness to teach us a lesson although a lesson could be learned. He uses His Word to discipline us. So again, God wants us healed. It is part of Jesus atonement for us. The Apostle John wrote by inspiration in 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. That's from the heart of God. It's his will. He wants to heal us all but we have to cooperate with Him because He works through us. Healing is also a Grace. It's something that God has done for before we even know we need it. And he does it because He loves us. It's undeserved. So grace is His part, faith is our part. How did you receive Christ? By Grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. So as you have received Christ, so walk you in Him.

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That's the right attitude. We should expect healing.
Not come with the attitude that God chooses who to heal and bypasses everyone else.
It's no wonder we aren't getting healed. It's our own fault. (unbelief)

Matthew 4:24
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.

Luke 6:17-19
He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coastal region around Tyre and Sidon, 18 who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by impure spirits were cured, 19 and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.

Alithis said:

I think tgey said ..h..he dors mot need "our" faith ..refering to the one being healed??

The rest of this post might need its own thread lol.
The English understanding that some demons only come with prayer and fasting is not consistant with all other dcripture Or the actions that Jesus then took.. Without prayer or fasting

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Hu?

Natsumi Lam said:

Hu?

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Lol edited

Alithis said:

Where in all scripture is it not Gods will to heal .. Deliver..Deliver..restore.. Bring life...etc .

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Sometimes it seems like to some folks that if God healed everyone that the lights in Heaven would dim.

GOODNESS

Ken C. said:

This verse refers back to Isaiah 53:5
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Also, if Paul told Timothy to drink wine, it's probably because the water was bad.

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Matthew 8:16-17
16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.
17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases ."

Clearly, Jesus had not been bruised, or whipped, or crucified when he was healing the sick and exorcizing demons as verse 16 describes. How, then, does it parallel Isaiah 53:5 which says that by Christ's stripes, that is, the wounds inflicted by his scourging, that we are healed? It seems quite evident to me that Matthew 8:16 & 17 aren't parallel to Isaiah 53:5. And this is the problem with not allowing the immediate context in which a verse stands to be the chief means of clarifying its meaning. As I said, Isaiah explains what he means by "healing" in Isaiah 53:5 in the very next verse which speaks, not of physical healing, but of our waywardness and the need for the reconciling effect of Christ's atonement.

As for Paul's advice to Timothy, why would Paul need to recommend such a mundane, non-miraculous remedy for "bad water" if, as a believer, Timothy was immune from sickness by virtue of the Atonement? Surely, Timothy, protected by the healing of the Atonement, could not have become sick by "bad water." But Paul didn't seem to think this was so - as his advice to Timothy indicates.

You've carefully avoided explaining how healing in the Atonement failed for Trophimus, Epaphroditus, and Dorcas. Why is that? They were all believers and should have been immune to illness by virtue of the Atonement, right? Trophimus was actually traveling with Paul when he fell ill. But they weren't all supernaturally preserved from sickness. Paul didn't pray for Epaphroditus' miraculous healing. This, it seems to me, puts a very big crimp in the healing-in-the-Atonement doctrine.

aiki said:

Matthew 8:16-17
16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.
17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases ."

Clearly, Jesus had not been bruised, or whipped, or crucified when he was healing the sick and exorcizing demons as verse 16 describes. How, then, does it parallel Isaiah 53:5 which says that by Christ's stripes, that is, the wounds inflicted by his scourging, that we are healed? It seems quite evident to me that Matthew 8:16 & 17 aren't parallel to Isaiah 53:5. And this is the problem with not allowing the immediate context in which a verse stands to be the chief means of clarifying its meaning. As I said, Isaiah explains what he means by "healing" in Isaiah 53:5 in the very next verse which speaks, not of physical healing, but of our waywardness and the need for the reconciling effect of Christ's atonement.

As for Paul's advice to Timothy, why would Paul need to recommend such a mundane, non-miraculous remedy for "bad water" if, as a believer, Timothy was immune from sickness by virtue of the Atonement? Surely, Timothy, protected by the healing of the Atonement, could not have become sick by "bad water." But Paul didn't seem to think this was so - as his advice to Timothy indicates.

You've carefully avoided explaining how healing in the Atonement failed for Trophimus, Epaphroditus, and Dorcas. Why is that? They were all believers and should have been immune to illness by virtue of the Atonement, right? Epaphroditus was actually traveling with Paul when he fell ill. But they weren't all supernaturally preserved from sickness. Paul didn't pray for Epaphroditus' miraculous healing. This, it seems to me, puts a very big crimp in the healing-in-the-Atonement doctrine.

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Check Strong's for the meaning of the word 'healed' in Isaiah 53:5.

In Matthew 8:16, Jesus is healing. In verse 17 He says that Isaiah 53:5 is fulfilled. Scripture often offers a commentary on itself.

As for Timothy and the 'bad water', it was a joke. I apologize if you took it the wrong way.
Now for the rest.
Some people have tried to use the fact that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletum, to teach that healing is not for everyone. The reasoning is that if Paul left Trophimus sick instead of healing him, then that shows that God doesn’t always want to heal people. After all, this was the mighty Apostle Paul–if his associate wasn’t healed, then why do believers think they can always be healed?
First, it is wrong to think that someone can be healed solely on the faith of another. Jesus couldn’t heal all those He wanted to heal in His hometown of Nazareth (Mark 6:5-6), because of their unbelief (Matthew 13:58), not His. Therefore, Trophimus couldn’t be healed just because he was an associate of the Apostle Paul’s–he had to believe to receive his healing (Matthew 21:22).
Also, it sometimes takes time to receive a healing. This verse didn’t say that Trophimus stayed sick. He may have; but he may have just had a little difficulty receiving his healing, and Paul didn’t have time to wait on the manifestation. It’s possible that Trophimus was healed and caught up with Paul or ministered in some other way.
It’s also possible that Trophimus just quit believing God, so Paul decided to leave him there sick.
There are other possibilities, but there is no reason to interpret Paul leaving Trophimus sick at Miletum as some indication that God doesn’t want people to be healed.

Oh, and we're not immune to illness, we have a way out of illness.
We are not immune because we are living in a fallen world. It hasn't been redeemed yet. The only part of us believers that have been redeemed is our spirits. One-third of us is wall-to-wall Holy Ghost.
Thanks for your response. Blessings

aiki said:

Matthew 8:16-17
16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.
17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases ."

Clearly, Jesus had not been bruised, or whipped, or crucified when he was healing the sick and exorcizing demons as verse 16 describes. How, then, does it parallel Isaiah 53:5 which says that by Christ's stripes, that is, the wounds inflicted by his scourging, that we are healed? It seems quite evident to me that Matthew 8:16 & 17 aren't parallel to Isaiah 53:5. And this is the problem with not allowing the immediate context in which a verse stands to be the chief means of clarifying its meaning. As I said, Isaiah explains what he means by "healing" in Isaiah 53:5 in the very next verse which speaks, not of physical healing, but of our waywardness and the need for the reconciling effect of Christ's atonement.

As for Paul's advice to Timothy, why would Paul need to recommend such a mundane, non-miraculous remedy for "bad water" if, as a believer, Timothy was immune from sickness by virtue of the Atonement? Surely, Timothy, protected by the healing of the Atonement, could not have become sick by "bad water." But Paul didn't seem to think this was so - as his advice to Timothy indicates.

You've carefully avoided explaining how healing in the Atonement failed for Trophimus, Epaphroditus, and Dorcas. Why is that? They were all believers and should have been immune to illness by virtue of the Atonement, right? Epaphroditus was actually traveling with Paul when he fell ill. But they weren't all supernaturally preserved from sickness. Paul didn't pray for Epaphroditus' miraculous healing. This, it seems to me, puts a very big crimp in the healing-in-the-Atonement doctrine.

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i wondered when this one would come up ... its an argument that is the epitome of the unbelieving attitude . It flies in the face of the great commission and the signs that shall follow those that believe . it is, as with most theologies formed in unbelief ,based upon an apparent exception .
the lord Jesus healed none other then ALL those who came to him . expressing it was his very nature to be wiling to do so .
in the time of his return a river flows from the city and on the sides of it are trees and their leaves are "for the healing ... " no one ever said any one is immune - our flesh is preserved alive by the power of the holy Spirit until we vacate it . but the flesh itself will not inherit the kingdom of god the flesh is corruptible and corrupted .it is prone to sickness and death . no ones immune . but it is always the will of God to heal .it is the divine nature of God to do GOOD .
Timothy had a stomach ailment .. (thine often infirmities) .. bad water , local diet etc . and there is NO record that he continued to be that way and there is no record he died of it . and it is with the others you listed the same .

James give great insight stating that for double mindedness and sinful motive you do not have what you ask because you ask with bad motive .. sin always brings a degrading of all life and ultimately death .
paul mentions that partaking communion unworthily ,without true care for righteousness and respect for the "whole" body of Christ .. i.e. living after the nature of the selfish flesh (sinfully) saying ,"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you..... "

So we can see its not anything to do with Gods will -he has expressly stated his will time and again
and then leaving us the command -"GO.. heal the sick ...

so when we fail to do so let us not come up with theologies that are based upon unbelief . Rather let us humble ourselves and go to god saying lord .. what am I getting wrong ? because YOU are the Lord who Changes not .

Natsumi Lam said:

Faith matters. Remember "ye of little faith".

It takes prayer and fasting to drive out some demons. It takes faith and obedience.

Your statement is invalid in partiality. God does not need faith...He requires of us faith to move mountains.

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God created, and saved, the world without our permission, help or faith. He can heal without our faith, as well.
Having faith is for OUR sake; to encourage us to trust him more. Sometimes God acts and works despite what we think.

Strong in Him said:

God created, and saved, the world without our permission, help or faith. He can heal without our faith, as well.
Having faith is for OUR sake; to encourage us to trust him more. Sometimes God acts and works despite what we think.

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Like i said ...He doesnt need our faith...but He does require it of us.

Ken C. said:

I think God would want all His children healed.

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Healed from what, though?
I believe that reconciliation with himself, eternal life and peace is his will for all people; not necessarily that the temporary body that we have for a few years on this earth is 100% healthy.
That may be the case, or may happen - I don't think it a priority though - "what good is it for a man to gain the whole world and yet forfeit his soul?", Mark 8:36

Ken C. said:

I happen to believe our Father loves us.

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He does. That doesn't mean we will always have perfect health or a problem free life, though.

Ken C. said:

God does not use sickness or illness to teach us a lesson

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He doesn't SEND it; he may USE it.
The devil sends illness, etc; he is the thief who has come to destroy, John 10:10, and wants to turn us away from God. Our Father can use all things for good, Romans 8:28.

Ken C. said:

It is part of Jesus atonement for us.

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Jesus came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10 and give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, Matthew 26:28 - not to give us healthy bodies.

Ken C. said:

The Apostle John wrote by inspiration in 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. That's from the heart of God.

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This proof text is often used to show that God wants to heal everybody.
John is saying that he hopes, and desires, that God will bless them - not expressing God's will that all believers will have perfectly healthy bodies.

Ken C. said:

It's his will.

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So why aren't all believers healed then - especially those who pray and ask for it? If they want it and God wants it, it should happen.
Non Christians who are sick should be healed the moment they accept and trust Christ - yet it doesn't happen that way.

Ken C. said:

He wants to heal us all but we have to cooperate with Him

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No we don't. He created and saved us without our help and co-operation; he can heal us without it too.
Jennifer Rees-Larcombe gave up seeking healing and just sought God - got closer to him and deepened her relationship with him. When she stopped seeking God for what he could do for her, he healed her - without her faith or co-operation.

Ken C. said:

Healing is also a Grace. It's something that God has done for before we even know we need it.

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That's salvation. He provided a Saviour for us before we knew we needed one.

Ken C. said:

And he does it because He loves us.

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The only problem with that is that it implies that if anyone with Down's syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, Alzheimer's, MND, MS, cancer etc isn't healed, that God doesn't love them.
He CAN heal these conditions; I'm not saying that. But if he doesn't, that does not mean at all that he does not love the people who have them.

Ken C. said:

So grace is His part, faith is our part.

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Again, we are not required to DO anything or "play a part".

Natsumi Lam said:

Like i said ...He doesnt need our faith...but He does require it of us.

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Requirement = condition - unless the requirement is met, the thing won't happen.
People have been healed without any faith at all.

Saint Steven said:

That's the right attitude. We should expect healing.
Not come with the attitude that God chooses who to heal and bypasses everyone else.
It's no wonder we aren't getting healed. It's our own fault. (unbelief)

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We should indeed expect healing but we must also be careful how we go about serving the Lord.
Lets try and see it from another perspective - from the throne of heaven itself.

Could it be that the Priest presented his offering to God having defiled himself on his approach to the Alter?. He possibly stood in some rather unpleasant things. Rather than being presented with the sweet aroma of Love it may have been rather unpleasant?

Matthew 5:23
Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

2 Timothy 2:5
Follow the Lord’s rules for doing his work, just as an athlete either follows the rules or is disqualified and wins no prize.

In my last post I have encouraged Johnny to pray again ( having cleaned up his act of course )

BTW - it takes only one other person to be in agreement. At least Four people said Amen. I thought carefully how it was conducted and what was said. God is Holy !

With that - I must remember to clean up "my own act". I have much work to do.

FIRESTORM314 said:

BTW - it takes only one other person to be in agreement for a prayer to work.

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Sorry if this sounds negative, but I do dislike the phrases, "for a prayer to work", "my prayer hasn't worked", or "prayer doesn't work".

Is it good to pray? - Yes.
Does God hear our prayers? - Yes.
Does God answer prayer? - Yes
Does God always give us the answer we are expecting? - No.

In the matter of healing, my experience - and I'm not saying you're doing this - is that Christians sometimes pray for physical healing, physical healing doesn't immediately happen and the tendency is to look for reasons why not. This often results in blaming the sick person in some way; i.e "have you unconfessed sins?", "did you have enough faith?", "have you claimed your healing?" etc etc.
How many Christians say, "well first, we need to ask God what he wants us to pray for", or ask God to administer healing in whatever area of the person's life that he wishes to?

If God gives a Christian a specific word, i.e "pray for that person tomorrow; I will heal them as you pray", then he will do it - because he said that he would. No question, or conditions.
The faith comes when the Christian says "I believe God has given me this word, I have not prayed like this before and am nervous, but I will do it."
If a Christian says, "people were healed in the NT, therefore God MUST want to heal everybody today, therefore we will have a healing service/pray for healing and this WILL happen" - God may still heal, because he is gracious; but don't be surprised if he doesn't bow to human assumption.

Strong in Him said:

Again, we are not required to DO anything or "play a part".

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no? i think you've mistaken what you perceive faith to be .
It is not a mystical thing you have but an action you take based upon what you truly believe .
and it is certainly required of us asked of us and commanded of us . for without it it is impossible to please God
simply because if there is no action taken based upon believing gods word then one does not truly believe Gods word .

FIRESTORM314 said:

We should indeed expect healing but we must also be careful how we go about serving the Lord.
Lets try and see it from another perspective - from the throne of heaven itself.

Could it be that the Priest presented his offering to God having defiled himself on his approach to the Alter?. He possibly stood in some rather unpleasant things and his feet might have been rather muddy and smelly. Rather than being presented with the sweet aroma of Love it may have been rather unpleasant?

Matthew 5:23
Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

2 Timothy 2:5
Follow the Lord’s rules for doing his work, just as an athlete either follows the rules or is disqualified and wins no prize.

In my last post I have encouraged Johnny to pray again ( having cleaned up his act of course )

BTW - it takes only one other person to be in agreement for a prayer to work. At least Four people said Amen. I thought carefully how it was conducted and what was said. God is Holy !

With that - I must remember to clean up "my own act". I have much work to do.

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Well, we've yet another notch in the spectrum of reasons why God doesn't heal.
Adding more cannon fodder to the claim that the odds are AGAINST God healing anyone. He obviously doesn't want to. (wrong) So why labor against his will, right?

Therefore, why bother? Why pray for the sick when there is a ninety-nine percent likelihood that He won't heal. And for no apparent reason, other than that we slipped up somewhere. There was a perceived speck of manure on our boot as we approached the throne of grace. From a pork farm no less. (horrors)

Let's look at this from the other perspective and revisit that ninety-nine percent failure rate. (conjecture, I know) But even if the percentage was that poor, that means one in every one hundred gets healed. And like the story of the starfish, it matters to that one. For those unfamiliar, here's the story.

A middle-aged couple was walking the ocean beach after a storm. They reached a spot where starfish by the hundreds of thousands were washed up on the shore far from the water. A boy was picking them up one by one and tossing them back in the sea, thus saving their lives. Though the couple thought this was admirable, they made a point about the futility of what he was trying to accomplish. "You'll never get them all. In the end it won't matter." To which the boy replied, "It matters to this one." as he tossed a starfish into the surf.

The only statistic we can be certain of is that 100 percent of the people we don't pray for don't get healed. So, even if the failure rate is 99 percent, it matters to the one that gets healed. Would you pray for a thousand people today if you knew that ten of them would be healed? And if 100 were healed, would you stop at 1000? And if every person after the 1000 mark was healed, would you not pray until you reached the end of your strength? That may sound ridiculous until you view this video of what is happening today with the Last Reformation.

aiki said:

Matthew 8:16-17
16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.
17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases ."

Clearly, Jesus had not been bruised, or whipped, or crucified when he was healing the sick and exorcizing demons as verse 16 describes. How, then, does it parallel Isaiah 53:5 which says that by Christ's stripes, that is, the wounds inflicted by his scourging, that we are healed? It seems quite evident to me that Matthew 8:16 & 17 aren't parallel to Isaiah 53:5. And this is the problem with not allowing the immediate context in which a verse stands to be the chief means of clarifying its meaning. As I said, Isaiah explains what he means by "healing" in Isaiah 53:5 in the very next verse which speaks, not of physical healing, but of our waywardness and the need for the reconciling effect of Christ's atonement.

As for Paul's advice to Timothy, why would Paul need to recommend such a mundane, non-miraculous remedy for "bad water" if, as a believer, Timothy was immune from sickness by virtue of the Atonement? Surely, Timothy, protected by the healing of the Atonement, could not have become sick by "bad water." But Paul didn't seem to think this was so - as his advice to Timothy indicates.

You've carefully avoided explaining how healing in the Atonement failed for Trophimus, Epaphroditus, and Dorcas. Why is that? They were all believers and should have been immune to illness by virtue of the Atonement, right? Epaphroditus was actually traveling with Paul when he fell ill. But they weren't all supernaturally preserved from sickness. Paul didn't pray for Epaphroditus' miraculous healing. This, it seems to me, puts a very big crimp in the healing-in-the-Atonement doctrine.

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I see valid points being made on both sides of this argument. But the biggest problem I see is with the conclusions. Take your pick.

1) God rarely if ever heals anyone, so why bother, or waste your time? (unless God specifically tells you to) Then you are guaranteed a healing.
2) We don't always see healing, but if we want to see God heal the sick, we need to pray for them. And all the more if the success rate seems low. Especially when testimony is that the more you pray, the higher the success rate.*

* See link to the Last Reformation in the post before this one.

Strong in Him said:

Requirement = condition - unless the requirement is met, the thing won't happen.
People have been healed without any faith at all.

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Where did you derive this formula?

Strong in Him said:

Sorry if this sounds negative, but I do dislike the phrases, "for a prayer to work", "my prayer hasn't worked", or "prayer doesn't work".

Is it good to pray? - Yes.
Does God hear our prayers? - Yes.
Does God answer prayer? - Yes
Does God always give us the answer we are expecting? - No.

In the matter of healing, my experience - and I'm not saying you're doing this - is that Christians sometimes pray for physical healing, physical healing doesn't immediately happen and the tendency is to look for reasons why not. This often results in blaming the sick person in some way; i.e "have you unconfessed sins?", "did you have enough faith?", "have you claimed your healing?" etc etc.
How many Christians say, "well first, we need to ask God what he wants us to pray for", or ask God to administer healing in whatever area of the person's life that he wishes to?

If God gives a Christian a specific word, i.e "pray for that person tomorrow; I will heal them as you pray", then he will do it - because he said that he would. No question, or conditions.
The faith comes when the Christian says "I believe God has given me this word, I have not prayed like this before and am nervous, but I will do it."
If a Christian says, "people were healed in the NT, therefore God MUST want to heal everybody today, therefore we will have a healing service/pray for healing and this WILL happen" - God may still heal, because he is gracious; but don't be surprised if he doesn't bow to human assumption.

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Offending post edited.

A previous poster mentioned Moses raising his hands to heaven during a battle and implied that we should have all been in agreement. My illustration was given to show all being in agreement wasn't necessary.

FIRESTORM314 said:

A previous poster mentioned Moses raising his hands to heaven during a battle and implied that we should have all been in agreement. My illustration was given to show all being in agreement wasn't necessary.

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I agree that it wasn't necessary. (for healing to occur)
Often times doing the right thing is optional. Standing with someone in prayer, rather than against them on a point of procedure. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2Cor.3:6)
The prayer of agreement is the principle here. (scripture below)

Imagine what might have happened if we had rallied around the topic starter in full support and discussed the particulars later. If we would have flooded the throne of grace with our outcry for healing in Jesus' name. If we would have held off with our criticisms for one day, one day. Someone may have been rejoicing in restored hearing today. And Johnny would still be with us. What did we get instead? Was it worth it? What can we learn from this?

Do we believe what this scripture says? Or do our muddy boots negate it?

Matthew 18:18-19
“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.