How do we deal with textual criticism?

Tinker Grey

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Can you define a lower life form?

Science defines lower life forms.
I don't define lower. I understand only different. Is a dog lower? By what definition? What's the most successful life form? Man? Bacteria is vastly more successful for certain definitions of successful.

Help me out. Define higher.
 
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klutedavid

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I don't define lower. I understand only different. Is a dog lower? By what definition? What's the most successful life form? Man? Bacteria is vastly more successful for certain definitions of successful.

Help me out. Define higher.
Yes Tinker Grey, a dog is a lower life form than man. If an alien species arrived tomorrow and wished to communicate with the inhabitants of this planet. I can assure you that they would not get very far talking to the sausage dog next door.

A higher life form is one that is not as restrained as us by the laws of physics. A life form that can transcend the dimension we exist within.

A higher life form would certainly not be as ignorant as humanity, making the same mistakes over and over again. Repeatedly electing the same set of monkeys to run the show.

Surely there is a higher life form out there?
 
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The OP is concerned with textual criticism of the scripture. The scripture contains the revelation of the Christ, the Christ being the source of life itself, the beginning and the end of everything.

I asked whether you believed in higher life forms than the human species, which you replied in the affirmative. Thus Jesus was a much higher life form than the human species, an eternal life form at that. So logically an atheist cannot deny that deities do exist, which strangely represents a paradox.

Here is an observation of a deity in the scripture.

Ezekiel 26-29
Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

This passage above contains some variation in different translations but the original wording and the authors intent, I believe is very straight forward. So it would not be the subject of much in the way of textual criticism, which is a shame.

So we are back on the OP, what is your evaluation of the passage above from the standpoint of textual criticism?
Excuse me. I'm going out for today, and will not be able to reply for some hours. I did enjoy reading your post, though. Very funny! While I'maway, you might like to go through it again and just check the reasoning in it?
 
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klutedavid

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Excuse me. I'm going out for today, and will not be able to reply for some hours. I did enjoy reading your post, though. Very funny! While I'maway, you might like to go through it again and just check the reasoning in it?
I will check the reasoning.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Yes Tinker Grey, a dog is a lower life form than man. If an alien species arrived tomorrow and wished to communicate with the inhabitants of this planet. I can assure you that they would not get very far talking to the sausage dog next door.
How can you assure me of that? Surely it is possible that an "advanced" species might be able to parse a dog's brain for information? It might prove more useful to them than the muddled musings of man.

A higher life form is one that is not as restrained as us by the laws of physics. A life form that can transcend the dimension we exist within.
Well, then, my answer is a tentative no. There is no evidence that transcending the laws of physics or the dimensions in which we live is even a meaningful concept.

A higher life form would certainly not be as ignorant as humanity, making the same mistakes over and over again. Repeatedly electing the same set of monkeys to run the show.
You should be so hard on the [insert political party here]

Surely there is a higher life form out there?
No -- a tentative no.
 
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Okay, back now.
Do you believe in the possibility of higher life forms than the human species?
While I agree with Tinker that "higher" and "lower" are concepts in need of definition, perhaps we could say for now that you mean "supernatural" creatures?
In which case, the answer to your question is yes - I do believe that they may possibly exist. That doesn't mean that I believe they (fairies, Aesir, God?) exist, but I am open to evidence if anyone wishes to present it.
Do you believe that mankind can see the universe in multiple dimensions and not just the visible aspect of space time?
No, I don't. But I am of course open to evidence that we have superpowers!
Surely life is more than eating, reproducing, and dying
Yes. Loving, helping, developing skills and abilities, forgiving...are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
 
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klutedavid

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Okay, back now.
Welcome back.
While I agree with Tinker that "higher" and "lower" are concepts in need of definition, perhaps we could say for now that you mean "supernatural" creatures?
A snail does not seek knowledge for knowledge sake. A snail is a lower life form and cognition is not a useful ability for snails.

I do believe the definition of lower and higher life forms is obvious, certainly so as far as cognition is concerned. We could add other attributes to that definition.
In which case, the answer to your question is yes - I do believe that they may possibly exist. That doesn't mean that I believe they (fairies, Aesir, God?) exist, but I am open to evidence if anyone wishes to present it.
Fairies may well exist, who is to say that in what we know of this universe with over two trillion stars, that fairies have never or will never exist.

We observe in a very limited plane and we are becoming much more aware of how limited our observations are.

I think it stands to reason that other life forms exist far beyond our comprehension. Remember we only recently let go of the branches and started walking around. Civilized society is very recent and the acquisition of knowledge is in it's infancy.
No, I don't. But I am of course open to evidence that we have superpowers!
Yes. Loving, helping, developing skills and abilities, forgiving...are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Yes I checked Maslow's idea but I strongly disagree with his claim. Self realization is a temporary affliction, life itself is extremely short and any personal advancement is meaningless.

People in general grossly underestimate the power of death.
 
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Myself, I did not come to faith because of reading the old testament, nor from study, nor because of other people believing, nor because of arguments or reasons people might offer, nor because of preaching I'd heard when young, though of course some sermons among the various ones were good ones. None of those made me believe, but rather the things Jesus said affected me, and neither did I "study", but I did read to find jewels among all the world's famed thinkers all kinds, including Jesus. Later (much later) I remembered that Jesus had said "Love your neighbor as yourself", and to "forgive" others, and began to see how that could bring peace even to places like Northern Ireland, if enough would do it.

When I began to figure out that forgiving is the only thing that allows real peace, then I no longer just thought of it as merely an altruistic ideal.

Not any more.

Not once I realized it was the only thing that would work, at all -- contrasting to peace through strength, which was just an armistice, 'deterrence', and just a pause before the next war.

So, I began to wonder if there was more Jesus had found. And, because I'd read others like Lao Tzu and Emerson and dozens of other well known thinkers, and read more of what Jesus said, much older now (late 20s) and much better able to appreciate what I was hearing, I began to want to know how much of what he said was true -- "true" meaning the best possible solution among all solutions.

I began to wonder what else would work so exceptionally. That kind of perfect way to do things solution, the best among all solutions.

What else might be such?

So, I began to test the things he said. I started with the "love your neighbor as yourself" proposition.

It was very unexpected the amazingly good outcome that happened when doing that. I thought maybe it would be some small gains, pleasant.

Instead I gained wonderful new friends through parties I got invited to, and gained so much more than I ever imagined possible.

It was a decisive result.

So, of course, then I wanted to know what else.
This is good, and reflects well on a person, and is even kind of sweet! But the fact that you said "Let's see if one piece of Jesus's good advice works in real life" and found that it does is not, in any sense, evidence that God is real or that the stories in the Bible are true.
What it does do is provide is a good example of how Christians convince themselves that their beliefs are true with emotion rather than evidence.
 
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Better than just trying to do an intellectual 'assessment' -- which would require a lot of assumptions, including assumptions we don't even realize we are making....

Much better than that mere intellectual assessment --

Seeing actual instructions on how to live, I tested them using a form of the scientific method of Karl Popper, by trying to falsify.

I aimed to find out what might work sort of ok (compared to normal American ways to live), and what would fail.

And when something worked well, I assumed it might be only luck, and retested it again in fresh circumstances, trying to find an instance where it would fail.

So I tested "love your neighbor" many times, with different strangers.

But, it does not fail to produce amazingly good results. It's actually brightened my view of humanity quite of lot -- I found out in a very first hand way that all sorts of unlikely looking strangers around me are pleasant to get to know, to my surprise. I already knew I could pick out good friends, but I had never imagined the unlikely looking random strangers around me might be worth knowing.... I learned against my expectation, and against my preferences to have only a couple of close friends only (and not more) that random neighbors are very much worth loving.

It was the opposite result of what I expected, and even to be honest not (certainly not at that time, that age) what I really wanted.

I only wanted a couple of good friends, and to be able to utterly ignore the rest of people.

That was a long time ago now.
As I said - that is not, in any sense, a "scientific test", and nor is it evidence for Christianity being true.
 
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Welcome back.

A snail does not seek knowledge for knowledge sake. A snail is a lower life form and cognition is not a useful ability for snails.

I do believe the definition of lower and higher life forms is obvious, certainly so as far as cognition is concerned. We could add other attributes to that definition.

Fairies may well exist, who is to say that in what we know of this universe with over two trillion stars, that fairies have never or will never exist.

We observe in a very limited plane and we are becoming much more aware of how limited our observations are.

I think it stands to reason that other life forms exist far beyond our comprehension. Remember we only recently let go of the branches and started walking around. Civilized society is very recent and the acquisition of knowledge is in it's infancy.

Yes I checked Maslow's idea but I strongly disagree with his claim. Self realization is a temporary affliction, life itself is extremely short and any personal advancement is meaningless.

People in general grossly underestimate the power of death.
Does any of this, in any way, provide evidence that God is real and that the stories in the Bible are true?
 
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Let me clarify: Christianity is about a personal relationship with a personal God.
Now, that is really interesting. What exactly do you mean by that?
Do you have contact with God?
Does God speak to you?
Do you hear His words?
Does He give you information?
I ask these questions because if you actually have contact with the actual God of Christianity, that is incredibly important and significant.
I, however, do not believe that you really do. I mean no offence, I am not calling you a liar. I just think that the answer to my questions is really:

Do you have contact with God? No, but you think you do.
Does God speak to you? No, you probably get "messages" from him in the form of coincidences and feelings.
Do you hear His words? I should imagine not, but maybe I'm wrong; maybe you do hear a voice speaking to you. In which case, I'd be very interested in knowing what it says.
Does He give you information? I'd be interested to hear if God ever tells you anything you couldn't actually have known yourself.

Now, since we were talking about Dan Barker, I thought of this extract from his book, Godless:
Our ministry was a mix of music and message. We sang duets and solos, and I preached the gospel, varying the message to relate to each audience as I felt prompted by the Holy Spirit. It was all bible-based, stressing the importance of obedience to God and the joy of possessing a personal relationship with Jesus, and of course, the need to be a faithful servant who is ready and waiting for Christ’s return. We were sincere. I indeed felt that I was talking with God and that Jesus was my Lord and friend. During service, people would often come down to the altar to confess their sins and accept Jesus as their savior. It seemed so right to be doing something so powerful. My work and music was constantly affirmed by the testimony of others and by the testimony of the Spirit, or what I thought and sincerely believed was the Spirit giving witness to my heart and mind. I had no doubts that it was all real.
Barker, Dan. Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists (pp. 24-25). Ulysses Press. Kindle Edition.
Got that? Dan Barker really believed that he had a relationship with God. It was real to him. And he later decided he was mistaken.
Can you say the same thing might never happen to you? If your answer is along the lines of "But I really know that God is real - do did Dan Barker, and many others.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This is good, and reflects well on a person, and is even kind of sweet! But the fact that you said "Let's see if one piece of Jesus's good advice works in real life" and found that it does is not, in any sense, evidence that God is real or that the stories in the Bible are true.
What it does do is provide is a good example of how Christians convince themselves that their beliefs are true with emotion rather than evidence.

...at least we know you're not a Pragmatist.
 
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SinoBen

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Got that? Dan Barker really believed that he had a relationship with God. It was real to him. And he later decided he was mistaken.
Can you say the same thing might never happen to you? If your answer is along the lines of "But I really know that God is real - do did Dan Barker, and many others.

Even the most beautiful of God's heavenly creatures can fall and did fall from grace. Unfortunately there are quite a number of Christian leaders and pastors that also failed their tests. Such is the human condition but in our walk before God, followers of Jesus must take up their cross.... daily. Hence I remind myself: Galatians 2:20

Sincerity or claims of it are just claims, what counts is faithfulness, obedience and perseverance.
 
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