Replacement Theology Refuted

Jerryhuerta said:

Acts 15
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

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More "interpretation by imagination". Or is it by "hallucination"?

There is not a single word in those verses that suggests or even implies that circumcision under the Old Covenant "discouraged the inclusion of the Gentiles".

On the contrary, from the very beginning, there was a "mixed multitude" of Egyptian Gentiles that joined the children of Israel in the Exodus. Every male in that Gentile multitude would have been circumsized according to God's covenant commands in Genesis 17 and elsewhere.

Exodus 12
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

From Strong's definition of multitude: much, many, great

No "discouraged Gentiles" there.

jgr said:

More "interpretation by imagination". Or is it by "hallucination"?

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You, jgr, have become like the rabid 'rapturists', who make snide and unpleasant remarks to those who refute their precious theory.

The truth about who the Israelites by actual descent are, is obviously something that God keeps hidden, so arguing about it is fruitless.

Re: 'discouraged Gentiles', its not so much dis, as encourage the Gentiles, as is very evident from the many millions of non Jewish Christians worldwide.
Circumcision, although a beneficial procedure, means nothing to them. The Mo'eds; Jewish Feasts, mean nothing to them, the Land has no historical significance for them, although the prophesies plainly state that every faithful Christian will go to live there.

So I suggest that you spend less time trying to prove the unprovable and more time on what God has told us He will do for His people.

keras said:

You, jgr, have become like the rabid 'rapturists', who make snide and unpleasant remarks to those who refute their precious theory.

The truth about who the Israelites by actual descent are, is obviously something that God keeps hidden, so arguing about it is fruitless.

Re: 'discouraged Gentiles', its not so much dis, as encourage the Gentiles, as is very evident from the many millions of non Jewish Christians worldwide.
Circumcision, although a beneficial procedure, means nothing to them. The Mo'eds; Jewish Feasts, mean nothing to them, the Land has no historical significance for them, although the prophesies plainly state that every faithful Christian will go to live there.

So I suggest that you spend less time trying to prove the unprovable and more time on what God has told us He will do for His people.

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My remarks are no more snide and unpleasant than those directed at me, bro. keras.

And I support them with Scripture.

And I let the Scripture do the proving.

The discussion dealt with Gentile participation in the old covenant in ancient Israel, not today.

jgr said:

And I let the Scripture do the proving.

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Then your avowed contention of everyone being literal descendants of Abraham, is refuted by Amos 9:8-9 ...God knows who is descended from Jacob; Israel.
This Bible truth proves that there is people alive today who have a traceable genealogy to one or other of the 12 sons of Jacob.
God knows them and the way we can guess who they are, is by their acceptance of the Gospel of Jesus brought to us by the Apostles.

Perhaps you could explain to us why you oppose this?

Jerryhuerta said:

The olive tree is their own tree.

Romans 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

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Olive tree = Israel = Jesus (YAHWEH) and Believers.

keras said:

Then your avowed contention of everyone being literal descendants of Abraham, is refuted by Amos 9:8-9 ...God knows who is descended from Jacob; Israel.
This Bible truth proves that there is people alive today who have a traceable genealogy to one or other of the 12 sons of Jacob.
God knows them and the way we can guess who they are, is by their acceptance of the Gospel of Jesus brought to us by the Apostles.

Perhaps you could explain to us why you oppose this?

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Re. Amos 9:8-9, you ignore the Gentile constituency which was part of Israel, those who were not of Abraham's seed (Genesis 17:12).

Every human now alive has "a traceable genealogy to one or other of the 12 sons of Jacob."

Those who are in the religious and cultural communities which lay claim to that genealogy inform us of that themselves.

It is a confirmation of the mathematics which underpin it, and the empirics which demonstrate it.

It is also a confirmation of Scripture's declarations of the irrelevance of physical DNA to God's covenant criteria and conditions.

Aren't you ecstatic that the twelve sons of Jacob run in your veins?

Far from opposing it, I endorse it completely.

jgr said:

Every human now alive has "a traceable genealogy to one or other of the 12 sons of Jacob."

Those who are in the religious and cultural communities which claim that genealogy inform us of that themselves.

It is a confirmation of the mathematics which demonstrate it.

It is also a confirm of Scripture's declarations of the irrelevance of physical DNA to God's covenant criteria and conditions.

Aren't you ecstatic that the twelve sons of Jacob run in your veins?

Far from opposing it, I endorse it completely.

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Thanks for the info. Can you provide a link or some reference? TIA

Dave L said:

Thanks for the info. Can you provide a link or some reference? TIA

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Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

jgr said:

Re. Amos 9:8-9, you ignore the Gentile constituency which was part of Israel, those who were not of Abraham's seed (Genesis 17:12).

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That was before the Exodus, where every Israelite born before that; died in the desert, excepting Joshua and Caleb. Those born in the Desert, went into the Land, where they were refined by the Blessings and curses at Shechem.
My point is that God does have a secret, a mystery about this whole issue, so it doesn't pay to be too pedantic about it.

keras said:

That was before the Exodus, where every Israelite born before that; died in the desert, excepting Joshua and Caleb. Those born in the Desert, went into the Land, where they were refined by the Blessings and curses at Shechem.

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My point is that God does have a secret, a mystery about this whole issue, so it doesn't pay to be too pedantic about it.

Amos 9:8-9 makes it clear that there IS a separation, there IS a people that God watches over and cares for.
They are not just of Abraham's seed, because the Arabs are that too, they are each descended from one or other of the 12 sons of Jacob. And they number far more than just the Jews; who mostly do not qualify genetically anyway.

I do believe in that possibility, but for now, what God requires of us all is faith and trust in Him and when the day comes that we are passed under the rod of Judgment, Ezekiel 20:34-38, we won't get left in the desert again.


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You continue to refer to genetics.

Why do you ignore these admonitions?

1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

jgr said:

You continue to refer to genetics.

Why do you ignore these admonitions?

1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

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I think that genetics does count, because it obviously did in ancient times and God does not change.
He chose Abraham to convey the truths of God to the world thru his seed.
His Seed, Jesus; gave us the Message of how we could achieve Salvation and we Christians from every race, nation and language are the result.

Paul is right in admonishing against trying to identify who are actual Israelites, as for us today; only our faith and trust in God counts. His secret; when all will be revealed, will be an interesting 'aha' moment for us all.

Jerryhuerta said:

You shouldn’t have stated in post #253 that the gathering and sowing of Ephraim in Zechariah 10:8-9: “be a gathering to Christ and a sowing of the great commission.” For such a concession substantiates premillennialism and that the age to come is the kingdom to come. It concedes that restoration of Israel comes with the age to come and that God is not finished with the biological descendants of Abraham. It substantiates that the meek inherit the earth, not heaven (Matthew 5:5).

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Believing Zechariah 10:8-9 points towards the great commission and the sower sowing the good seed substantiates pre mil? Not really following your logic on this one jerry.

Jerryhuerta said:

Again, quoting from one of your own supersessionist:

Eph 2:14
For he is our peace,.... The author of peace between Jew and Gentile: there was a great enmity of the Jew against the Gentile, and of the Gentile against the Jew; and chiefly on account of circumcision, the one being without it, and the other insisting on it, and branding one another with nicknames on account of it… John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible 1690-1771 (emphasis added)

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Genesis 17 and Exodus 12 say nothing about enmity, and John Gill says nothing about Genesis 17 and Exodus 12.

Jerryhuerta said:

The gentiles are grafted to Israel, and not the other way around.

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= the church is Israel.......

Jerryhuerta said:

And you agreed the sowing in verse 9 is indicative of this age

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Correct, I believe the sowing of Israel and Judah is related to the son of man sowing the good seed.

and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, ‘You are my people’; and he shall say, ‘You are my God.’”
Hosea 2:23 - Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 2:23 - English Standard Version

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass that as I have watched over them to pluck up and break down, to overthrow, destroy, and bring harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:27-28 - Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:27-28 - English Standard Version

“I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as many as they were before. Though I will sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return.
Zechariah 10:8-9 - Bible Gateway passage: Zechariah 10:8-9 - English Standard Version

Jerryhuerta said:

The consequences are that the promised Messianic kingdom was not ordained for this age but the next when God brings Israel back from their dispersion and Christ sits on his throne.

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I disagree.

I believe Christ sat on the throne at his ascension, thus fulfilling Gods promise to David.


Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Acts 2:30-31 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 2:30-31 - English Standard Version

21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Revelation 3:21 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 3:21 - English Standard Version

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Ephesians 1:20-21 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 1:20-21 - English Standard Version


He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
John 11:51-52 - Bible Gateway passage: John 11:51-52 - English Standard Version