Traditions of men (continued from TAW)

That's a pretty clear non sequitur. Your logic follows this reasoning:

1. Jesus knew the mind of God.
2. The mind of God wanted a church.
3. Therefore Jesus started a church.
4. Therefore the church knows the mind of God.

The jump from point three to point four is illogical. We might try that logic on what we might have expected from Biblical Israel, being called and chosen by God. Yet, Biblical Israel forsook the will of God, and they did not abide in him. If an entire nation, chosen by God, can wander from the truth and reject their God, then we have no less reason to expect the same of the Catholic Church.

That's an interesting postulation.

What Scripture would you apply to these statements:
--to start A (one) Church
--for your next statement, are you saying the apostles are also God/Christs? Scripture for that?
--We believe our bishops are the successors of the apostles
--therefore, the Church has the mind of God

Are you interpreting "church" as a political entity or as the body of Christ, i.e. all believers? What Scripture would you use to support your interpretation?

According to the scriptures, any believer who comes to saving faith in Christ and is indwelled by the Holy Spirit has "the mind of God". Yet it is clear that sin causes believers to go astray. We can look at any faith group, in any century, and find examples of people who are demonstrably evil.

Root of Jesse said:

Especially for @Tone

You quoted Romans "For who has known the mind of God...", and I will answer you. Jesus knew the mind of God, knew that He wanted Jesus to start A (one) Church. Jesus did so, and even before He did so, people began fragmenting away (read John 6). We believe our bishops are the successors of the apostles, therefore, the Church has the mind of God.

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Yeh, I suppose that Jesus did know the mind of God, being that he was God himself.

Root of Jesse said:

Especially for @Tone

You quoted Romans "For who has known the mind of God...", and I will answer you. Jesus knew the mind of God, knew that He wanted Jesus to start A (one) Church. Jesus did so, and even before He did so, people began fragmenting away (read John 6). We believe our bishops are the successors of the apostles, therefore, the Church has the mind of God.

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I agree with @nonaeroterraqueous. This is a very poor argument on several grounds. I'll mention a few problems.

1. Your core argument seems to be that because Jesus is God therefore the church is infallible. But I don't see how the infallibility of the church is any way implied in Jesus' divinity. You certainly have not demonstrated this here. These are two propositions that you may hold, but they are not logically related to one another.
   
   
2. I will concede that the church does have the mind of Christ in some sense. But this does not imply that the Roman Catholic Church is infallible. I agree that the Jesus rules his church and is present with his church. I agree that the church is guided by the Holy Spirit. But it is a whole other matter to demonstrate that the church of Jesus is identical to the Roman Catholic church. And it is another matter to demonstrate that this guidance entails the infallibility of the Roman Catholic Church.

You've just got a bunch of unproven assumptions here. Not a convincing argument.

Root of Jesse said:

Especially for @Tone

You quoted Romans "For who has known the mind of God...", and I will answer you. Jesus knew the mind of God, knew that He wanted Jesus to start A (one) Church. Jesus did so, and even before He did so, people began fragmenting away (read John 6). We believe our bishops are the successors of the apostles, therefore, the Church has the mind of God.

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The book of John deals so much with the stark differences between those who believe and those who do not believe. Because it’s written to contain the spiritual aspects of the gospel is also pertains to the mind of God, thru the thoughts of Jesus basically. That the believers are the church and the unbelievers are not is dealt with so minutely that even the division comes down to within one person (Peter) there can be no mistaking what the mind of God was referring to. Simple faith thru the eyes of a child can see that.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

That's a pretty clear non sequitur. Your logic follows this reasoning:

1. Jesus knew the mind of God.
2. The mind of God wanted a church.
3. Therefore Jesus started a church.
4. Therefore the church knows the mind of God.

The jump from point three to point four is illogical. We might try that logic on what we might have expected from Biblical Israel, being called and chosen by God. Yet, Biblical Israel forsook the will of God, and they did not abide in him. If an entire nation, chosen by God, can wander from the truth and reject their God, then we have no less reason to expect the same of the Catholic Church.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what is being talked about (in Romans) by the way. Israel--some broken off; always a remnant; some being grafted back in; and others being grafted in for the first time.

The main thing is:

John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

"Men gather them"...I wonder what this looks like?

*And what is the fire?

Tone said:

This is exactly what is being talked about (in Romans) by the way. Israel--some broken off; always a remnant; some being grafted back in; and others being grafted in for the first time.

The main thing is:

John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

"Men gather them"...I wonder what this looks like?

*And what is the fire?

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That’s pretty much KJV only translation. Most say they with no reference to who they are. The Hebrews meaning is more explicit that obedience in yielding to the Father’s pruning is what is being dealt with. The fire would signify to me the suffering of the dross being burnt away.

Hebrews 12:3-11

3 Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners,[a] so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children—

“My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,

or lose heart when you are punished by him;

6

for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves,

and chastises every child whom he accepts.”

7 Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? 8 If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. 9 Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness. 11 Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Here's some fire:

2 Timothy 2:14
"Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."

Galatians 5:15
"But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."

1 Timothy 1:3-7
"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm."

1 Timothy 6:2-5
"These are the things you are to teach and insist on. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain."

James 3:6
"And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

LoreneDD said:

That’s pretty much KJV only translation. Most say they with no reference to who they are. The Hebrews meaning is more explicit that obedience in yielding to the Father’s pruning is what is being dealt with. The fire would signify to me the suffering of the dross being burnt away.

Hebrews 12:3-11

3 Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners,[a] so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children—

“My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,

or lose heart when you are punished by him;

6

for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves,

and chastises every child whom he accepts.”

7 Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? 8 If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. 9 Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness. 11 Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

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That's why I don't see it as a total loss to study (or even subscribe to) all the denominations. But, all that dross does have to melt away eventually...and whatever remains is what abides in Him.

*Philippians 3:8
"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,"

Tone said:

That's why I don't see it as a total loss to study (or even subscribe to) all the denominations. But, all that dross does have to melt away eventually...and whatever remains is what abides in Him.

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One has to discern very closely what is being promoted in each denomination and what is being excluded of the scripture to make their dogmas work. (every denomination has a dogma just as we all do. There’s as many denominations as there are theologians) But everyone of them is worth considering for sure because everyone of them has something that others are excluding it seems. It’s taking a look at the big picture that’s difficult. It’s the big picture that will remain but abiding is less scientific. That’s relational so more dependant than interdependent. jm2c

Root of Jesse said:

I don't know what your point is here...

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Are you grafted in?