If satan is bound in this present age---

LittleLambofJesus

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Luk 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
I forgot all about that.
Would that be the 3rd or 5th Trumpet in Revelation.

796. astrape as-trap-ay' from 797;
lightning; by analogy, glare:--lightning, bright shining.

Luke 10:
1 And after these things, the Lord did appoint also other seventy, and sent them by twos before his face, to every city and place whither he himself was about to come

17 And the seventy turned back with joy, saying, ‘Sir, even the demons are being subjected to us in thy name;
18 and he said to them, `I beheld the Satan, as lightening/bright-star/astraphn <796> from out-of the heaven having fallen<4098>
=================================
Revelation 8:10
10 And the third Messenger trumpets;
and a great burning Star<792> falls<4098> out of the heaven as a torch,
and falls on the third of the rivers and upon the springs<4077> of the waters<5204>

Revelation 9:1

And the fifth Messenger trumpets,
and I saw a Star<792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> to the land, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,
=========================
Please visit my 7 TRUMPETS thread:

Joshua 6 [7 Priests and 7 trumpets/shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers with 7 trumpets]

Joshua 6
4

Have seven Priests carry seven trumpets of rams' horns in front of the Ark.
Then on the seventh day, march around the City seven times, while the Priests blow the trumpets.
13
Then seven Priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the Ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets. And the armed men went before Them.
But the rear guard came after the Ark of the LORD, while the Priests continued blowing the trumpets.

jerichowalls7priests.jpg


Revelation 8:
2

And I saw the seven Messengers which stood before God,
and to Them were given seven trumpets.
6
And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready Themselves that They should be trumpeting<4537>.

189274-seven-angels-with-seven-trumpets_md.gif
 
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DavidPT

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I forgot all about that.
Would that be the 3rd or 5th Trumpet in Revelation.


Speaking for myself, I can see it fitting the 5th trumpet, which then could make the falling star referring to satan when he is initially cast out of heaven unto the earth per Revelation 12. I'm not dogmatic about it though.
 
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ewq1938

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Speaking for myself, I can see it fitting the 5th trumpet, which then could make the falling star referring to satan when he is initially cast out of heaven unto the earth per Revelation 12. I'm not dogmatic about it though.

I think the 3rd trump is a better candidate.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great
star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the
third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter.


satan spirit has always been here, so this "star" isnt just that. a star is an angel, and this great star was spoken of by Christ.


this is satan. he is that great star which burned like a
lamp...brightness...thats what his name also means

lucifer
1966

01966 heylel {hay-lale'}

from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m

AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


he was the shining morning star...so when he is cast out he is
described as a great star that was shining brightly like a lamp when
he fell.

Wormwood is also a reference to satan because he is bitterness and is
poison to gods children. there is no other that the third trump can
be speaking of.


Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall
from heaven.

This isnt literal lightning but a falling or shooting star. One that
has that long tail of light that appears like a bolt of lightning,
which also denotes how bright he is, or at least likes to think he is.


lightning
796

796 astrape {as-trap-ay'}

from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f

AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9

1) lightning
1a) of the gleam of a lamp


"the gleam of a lamp"

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great
star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the
third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter.

"burning as it were a lamp"

Christ himself documenting satans fall in the 3rd trump.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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If satan is bound in this present age like many assume, where in the following contexts does it allow for the time necessary in order to fulfill this?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan certainly can't be in the pit prior to this war breaking out in heaven. This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.

The text indicates he gets cast to the earth. So what does he do once he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. The text depicts a satan on the loose, and not a satan bound in a pit. According to Revelation 20, satan does not war with anyone during the thousand years. It is therefore only before the thousand years and after the thousand years that he can logically wage war on anyone. During the thousand years he would be in the pit.

If satan is bound in the pit in this age, it would have to be meaning after verse 17 above has been entirely fulfilled. But if the fulfilling of verse 17 spans all the way until the 2nd coming, where does this allow for the time necessary in order to bind satan a thousand years? Doesn't this then show Premil is the only thing that will work here?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 1 says---And I saw an angel come down from heaven. Where would the angel logically be coming down to? The earth of course. Doesn't this at least tell us that the binding of satan has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven? Because if it doesn't, that should mean the angel doesn't need to come down anywhere to bind satan, he could simply do it in heaven while satan still had access to heaven.

And where does Revelation 12 indicate satan is cast to? The earth. Yet according to the text in Revelation 12 when he is cast to the earth, he is in war mode, something he would not be in while bound in the pit. And if his binding has to follow the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17 in it's entirety, how then can any position but Premil fit the chronology of these events?
According to the book of revelation, a condition of satan being chained (in the abyss, not the pit) is that the nations are not deceived anymore.

The nations currently are deceived and run by liars: Therefore, satan is not chained in this present age.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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DavidPT said:
If satan is bound in this present age like many assume, where in the following contexts does it allow for the time necessary in order to fulfill this?
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Satan certainly can't be in the pit prior to this war breaking out in heaven. This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.
The text indicates he gets cast to the earth. So what does he do once he is cast to the earth?
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. The text depicts a satan on the loose, and not a satan bound in a pit. According to Revelation 20, satan does not war with anyone during the thousand years. It is therefore only before the thousand years and after the thousand years that he can logically wage war on anyone. During the thousand years he would be in the pit.
If satan is bound in the pit in this age, it would have to be meaning after verse 17 above has been entirely fulfilled. But if the fulfilling of verse 17 spans all the way until the 2nd coming, where does this allow for the time necessary in order to bind satan a thousand years? Doesn't this then show Premil is the only thing that will work here?
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Verse 1 says---And I saw an angel come down from heaven. Where would the angel logically be coming down to? The earth of course. Doesn't this at least tell us that the binding of satan has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven? Because if it doesn't, that should mean the angel doesn't need to come down anywhere to bind satan, he could simply do it in heaven while satan still had access to heaven.

And where does Revelation 12 indicate satan is cast to? The earth. Yet according to the text in Revelation 12 when he is cast to the earth, he is in war mode, something he would not be in while bound in the pit. And if his binding has to follow the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17 in it's entirety, how then can any position but Premil fit the chronology of these events?
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Luk 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Would that be the 3rd or 5th Trumpet in Revelation.
796. astrape as-trap-ay' from 797;
lightning; by analogy, glare:--lightning, bright shining.

Luke 10:
1 And after these things, the Lord did appoint also other seventy, and sent them by twos before his face, to every city and place whither he himself was about to come

17 And the seventy turned back with joy, saying, ‘Sir, even the demons are being subjected to us in thy name;
18 and he said to them, `I beheld the Satan, as lightening/bright-star/astraphn <796> from out-of the heaven having fallen<4098>
=================================
Revelation 8:10
10 And the third Messenger trumpets;
and a great burning Star<792> falls<4098> out of the heaven as a torch,
and falls on the third of the rivers and upon the springs<4077> of the waters<5204>

Revelation 9:1

And the fifth Messenger trumpets,
and I saw a Star<792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> to the land, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,
=========================
Please visit my 7 TRUMPETS thread:

Joshua 6 [7 Priests and 7 trumpets/shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers with 7 trumpets]
Speaking for myself, I can see it fitting the 5th trumpet, which then could make the falling star referring to satan when he is initially cast out of heaven unto the earth per Revelation 12. I'm not dogmatic about it though.
I think the 3rd trump is a better candidate.
Christ himself documenting satans fall in the 3rd trump

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
satan spirit has always been here, so this "star" isnt just that. a star is an angel, and this great star was spoken of by Christ.

this is satan. he is that great star which burned like a
lamp...brightness...thats what his name also means
lucifer
01966 heylel {hay-lale'} from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer 1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.) 2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
==========
he was the shining morning star...so when he is cast out he is
described as a great star that was shining brightly like a lamp when
he fell.

Wormwood is also a reference to satan because he is bitterness and is
poison to gods children. there is no other that the third trump can
be speaking of.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall
from heaven.
This isnt literal lightning but a falling or shooting star. One that
has that long tail of light that appears like a bolt of lightning,
which also denotes how bright he is, or at least likes to think he is.

lightning
796 astrape {as-trap-ay'} from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f
AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9
1) lightning 1a) of the gleam of a lamp

"the gleam of a lamp"
.
Very informative posts DavidPT and ewq1938
I actually have a study thread on "Lucifer"

Here is the link for those interested:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/isaiah-14-12-lucifer-translation.7286527/
Sep 17, 2008

Greetings. I was translating Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and I notice there was a bit of confusion on Isaiah 14:12 and the word used for "lucifer".
This is how that verse is word for word in the Hebrew

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Isaiah 14:12
How thou fell from heavens! howl-thee!<03213 yalal> son of dawn<01966 heylel>.
Thou was hewn down to land, one defeating over nations.

03213 yalal a primitive root; TWOT - 868; v
AV - howl 29, howlings 1, variant 1; 31
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling

01966 heylel { from 01984
(in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
AV - Lucifer 1; 1
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
======================
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.

JPS1917 OT) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

Orthodox Jewish Bible)
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from Shomayim, O Heilel Ben Shachar (Bright One of the Dawn, Day Star, Lucifer)! How art thou cast down to the earth, thou, which hast laid low the Goyim!

NASB) Isaiah 14:12
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

KJV) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
[how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {O Lucifer: or, O day star}
======
How
Strong's Hebrew 349: How?, how!, where
you have fallen
Strong's Hebrew 5307: To fall, lie
from heavens,
Strong's Hebrew 8064: Heaven, sky
O Morning Star,
הֵילֵ֣ל (hê·lêl)
Strong's Hebrew 1966: The morning-star
son
Strong's Hebrew 1121: A son
of the dawn!
Strong's Hebrew 7837: Dawn
You have been cut down
Strong's Hebrew 1438: To fell a, tree, to destroy anything
to the ground,
Strong's Hebrew 776: Earth, land
O destroyer
Strong's Hebrew 2522: To prostrate, to overthrow, decay
of
Strong's Hebrew 5921: Above, over, upon, against
nations.
Strong's Hebrew 1471: A foreign nation, a Gentile, a troop of animals, a flight of locusts

===================================
Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus, send the Messenger of Me to testify to ye these things upon the Assemblies.
I AM the Root and the gener<1085> of [*the] David, the Star<792> the Shining<2986>, the Morning/Dawn<4407>.

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star."

Jewish Orthodox Bible)
16 I, Yehoshua/Yeshua [Zech 6:11-12; Ezra 3:8] sent My malach (angel) to give solemn eidus (testimony) to you of these things, for the Kehillot.
I am the Shoresh (root) and the tzemach of Dovid, the Kokhav HaShachar

New American Standard Bible
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches.
I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
King James Bible
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
World English Bible
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies.
I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."
Young's Literal Translation
'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies;
I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
========================
“I,

Strong's Greek 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
Jesus,
Strong's Greek 2424: Of Hebrew origin; Jesus, the name of our Lord and two other Israelites.
have sent
Strong's Greek 3992: To send, transmit, permit to go, put forth.
My
Strong's Greek 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
angel
Strong's Greek 32: From aggello; a messenger; especially an 'angel'; by implication, a pastor.
to give you this testimony
Strong's Greek 3140: To witness, bear witness, give evidence, testify, give a good report. From martus; to be a witness, i.e. Testify.
for
Strong's Greek 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.
the
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
churches.
Strong's Greek 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.
I
Strong's Greek 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
am
Strong's Greek 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.
the
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Root
Strong's Greek 4491: A root, shoot, source; that which comes from the root, a descendent. Apparently a primary word; a 'root'.
and
Strong's Greek 2532: And, even, also, namely.
the
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Offspring
Strong's Greek 1085: Offspring, family, race, nation, kind. From ginomai; 'kin'.
of David,
Strong's Greek 1138: David, King of Israel. Of Hebrew origin; Dabid, the Israelite king.
the
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
bright
Strong's Greek 2986: From the same as lampas; radiant; by analogy, limpid; figuratively, magnificent or sumptuous.
Morning
Strong's Greek 4407: Belonging to the morning, early. From proi; pertaining to the dawn, i.e. Matutinal.
Star.
Strong's Greek 792: A star. Probably from the base of stronnumi; a star, literally or figuratively.
 
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parousia70

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Satan was cast out, judged, spoiled and bound by Jesus Christ:

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Matthew 12:28-29
If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you...how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (Jesus here claims to have bound satan and plundered his house)

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

John 16:8,11
And when [the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:...of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

Acts 26:17-18
To the nations I now send you to open their eyes to turn them from darkness to light and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them who are sanctified by faith that is in me.



Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.


As for The Accuser, Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

Romans 8:31-34
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

1 John 5:18
he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
 
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parousia70

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Satan is defeated to Christ and his Church. In fact, this was the very purpose of Christ's ministry (see 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14-15; John 12:31; Col 2:15; Matthew 16:18-19; Matthew 28:18-19, etc), yet many today seem to deny that Christ was successful.

It certainly is true that those outside the Kingdom of God are bound in chains of sin and darkness and are the "sons of satan" (as was Cain and as were the rulers of Israel Jesus spoke against in John 8:44) -- but look at how bound and powerless satan is to all the Sons of God (Acts 26:17-18; Matthew 12:28-29; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:17, etc). Jesus said the time for the satan to have been cast out was back in HIS time (John 12:31).

So we must not UNDO the work of Christ in this matter by a retroactive faith that places us back in time as if we are a people living PRIOR to Christ's victory over satan. What a travesty it is, IMHO, to see how the eschatological doctrine of futurism is always robbing Christ of his power and completed work. It is not even uncommon to hear Christians say nearly blasphemous statements that satan is the god of this world as if that means Christ is not Lord over him and indeed over all things (Matthew 28:18-19; 1 Peter 3:22; Eph 1:20-21; Rev 1:5; )

Finally, satan is most certainly NOT accusing any of the brothers any more. His ministry as the O.T. accuser of the saints came to an end when Christ stripped him of all authority and granted righteousness by faith to all the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 tells how the blood of the Lamb has granted this victory, and is tied to Paul's teaching in Romans:

Rom 8:30-31,33
Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then will we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Who could bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

This passage shows how satan's O.T. role as accuser of the brethren (see Job 1 and 2; Rev 12:10-11) is now over. He simply can make no accusation, for the Judge has fully pardoned all his people and based upon the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.

Amazing Love and Victory!
 
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DavidPT

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Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



What is one's opinion on the timing of this? Something that has already been fulfilled? Something that is yet to happen? If the former, when do you feel it was initially fulfilled?

The reason why I bring these things up, until verse 12 is fulfilled, the war in heaven can't have already taken place yet. Which then means satan still has access to heaven in the meantime.

Let's not forget, there are positions, such as Amil, who place the binding of satan in this age. So I'm curious as to what they conclude about the timing above in verse 12. If they conclude it has already initially been fulfilled, say 2000 years ago around the time of the cross, or maybe around the time of the ascension, this at least leaves time for their thousand years that they assume takes place in this age, to fit. Yet there is still a problem though, even with that. When verse 12 is initially fulfilled, satan is having great wrath at the time, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. It doesn't sound like that matches with a time while he is bound in the pit, but matches with a time when he is not.

And if verse 12 was initially fulfilled 2000 years ago, 2000 years and counting---is a short time? What about satan's little season then? Why wouldn't Amils see that fitting better with this short time instead? And if some do, and that these same ones place verse 12 as initially being fulfilled 2000 years ago though, while at the same time placing satan's little season at the end of this age, how is anyone supposed to be able to make sense out of any of that?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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According to the book of revelation, a condition of satan being chained (in the abyss, not the pit) is that the nations are not deceived anymore.
The nations currently are deceived and run by liars: Therefore, satan is not chained in this present age.
When in doubt, go to the Greek.
The word for "well/pit is used in only 5 verses of the NT.

One verse I find extremely interesting is the reference to "Jacob's well" in John 4 when Jesus talks with the Samaritan woman.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

5421. phrear of uncertain derivation;
a hole in the ground (dug for obtaining or holding water or other purposes), i.e. a cistern or well; figuratively, an abyss (as a prison):--well, pit.
φρέαρ (phrear) occurs 7 times in 5 verses
901. bathus from the base of 939;
profound (as going down), literally or figuratively:--deep, very early.
βαθύς (bathys),occurs 3 times in 3 verses

Luke 14:5

Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”

John 4
5 So He came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph.
6 Since Jacob's spring<4077> was there, Jesus, weary from His journey, sat down by the spring. It was about the sixth hour.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and Who it is Who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep<901>. Where then do You get that living water?

12 “Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well<5421>, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
20 Our forefathers worshiped on this Mountain,
but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem."
================================
It is also used in Revelation concerning the "well/pit"

Revelation 9:
1 And the fifth Messenger trumpets, and I saw a Star out of the heaven having fallen to the land,
and there was given to it the key of the well/pit<5421> of the Abyss,
2 and He did open the well/pit of the Abyss, and there came up smoke out of the well/pit as smoke of a great furnace,
and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the well/pit.
11 and they have over them a King — the messenger of the Abyss — a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon/destroyer.

875 'er be-ayr' from 874; a pit; especially a well:--pit, well.
בְּאֵר (ĕ'er) occurs 37 times in 33 verses

Gen 29:10

When Jacob saw Rachel daughter of his uncle Laban, and Laban's sheep, he went over and rolled the stone away from the mouth of the well<875> and watered his uncle's sheep.

Psa 69:15
Let not the floodwater overflow me, Nor let the deep swallow me up;
And let not the pit shut its mouth on me.
Pro 23:27
For a harlot is a deep pit,
And a seductress is a narrow well.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19


Revelation 18:
3 That out of the wine of the fury<2372> of Her whoredom have fallen all the nations, and the kings of the earth with Her did commit whoredom,
and the Merchants of the earth out of the power of the indulgence<4764> of Her are rich.
4 And I heard another Voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth out of Her My people!
that ye should not be joint partakers<4790> Her sins,

.................................

.................................
 
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DavidPT

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When in doubt, go to the Greek.
The word for "well/pit is used in only 5 verses of the NT.

One verse I find extremely interesting is the reference to "Jacob's well" in John 4 when Jesus talks with the Samaritan woman.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

5421. phrear of uncertain derivation;
a hole in the ground (dug for obtaining or holding water or other purposes), i.e. a cistern or well; figuratively, an abyss (as a prison):--well, pit.
φρέαρ (phrear) occurs 7 times in 5 verses
901. bathus from the base of 939;
profound (as going down), literally or figuratively:--deep, very early.
βαθύς (bathys),occurs 3 times in 3 verses

Luke 14:5

Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”

John 4
5 So He came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph.
6 Since Jacob's spring<4077> was there, Jesus, weary from His journey, sat down by the spring. It was about the sixth hour.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and Who it is Who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep<901>. Where then do You get that living water?

12 “Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well<5421>, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
20 Our forefathers worshiped on this Mountain,
but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem."

Revelation 9:
1 And the fifth Messenger trumpets, and I saw a Star out of the heaven having fallen to the land,
and there was given to it the key of the well/pit<5421> of the Abyss,
2 and He did open the well/pit of the Abyss, and there came up smoke out of the well/pit as smoke of a great furnace,
and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the well/pit.
11 and they have over them a King — the messenger of the Abyss — a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon/destroyer.

875 'er be-ayr' from 874; a pit; especially a well:--pit, well.
בְּאֵר (ĕ'er) occurs 37 times in 33 verses

Gen 29:10

When Jacob saw Rachel daughter of his uncle Laban, and Laban's sheep, he went over and rolled the stone away from the mouth of the well<875> and watered his uncle's sheep.

Psa 69:15
Let not the floodwater overflow me, Nor let the deep swallow me up;
And let not the pit shut its mouth on me.
Pro 23:27
For a harlot is a deep pit,
And a seductress is a narrow well.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-great-city-harlot-queen-revelation-chapts-17-19.8101634/


Revelation 18:
3 That out of the wine of the fury<2372> of Her whoredom have fallen all the nations, and the kings of the earth with Her did commit whoredom,
and the Merchants of the earth out of the power of the indulgence<4764> of Her are rich.
4 And I heard another Voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth out of Her My people!
that ye should not be joint partakers<4790> Her sins,

.................................

.................................



How does any of this address the part about--- while satan is in the pit, nations can't be deceived during that time? Then when comparing to reality, assuming satan is currently in the pit, nations are still being deceived, yet they are not supposed to be if satan is supposed to be presently in the pit. A lot of us see that as an obvious contradiction if that's supposed to be the case. So IOW I'm not grasping the point you are trying to convey here since I didn't notice in anything you submitted that might be addressing any of this in particular?
 
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parousia70

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How does any of this address the part about--- while satan is in the pit, nations can't be deceived during that time? Then when comparing to reality, assuming satan is currently in the pit, nations are still being deceived, yet they are not supposed to be if satan is supposed to be presently in the pit. A lot of us see that as an obvious contradiction if that's supposed to be the case. So IOW I'm not grasping the point you are trying to convey here since I didn't notice in anything you submitted that might be addressing any of this in particular?

Remember, just 2,000 years ago there were zero peoples outside of Israel that were permitted access to God. Think about that for a while.

That is what is meant by "nations no longer deceived".

Today (yes TODAY) Christ and the Church have total dominion over darkness via the success of the New Covenant. Under the terms of the Old Covenant contract, satanic dominion was not yet under the feet of the people of God. In fact, it was crushing them legally, by Mosaic writ! By covenant, satan was at that time permitted to accuse and prosecute legitimate guilt against the People of God--and the OT saints, being guilty and with no legal recourse, summarily fell under the apocalyptic curses of the Mosaic Contract as a result (as listed at Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26). Because of the successful victory of the New Covenant Israel, Satan is no longer the accuser of the brethren (Romans 8:1-2,33-34), for salvation has come to them (Rev 12:10), and the curse was lifted from God's people.

Now, what does that mean for those outside of the covenant? Revelation 22, the depiction of the "New Covenant World," tells us:

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

There, in the New Covenant World, we see the clear blessing for those that will convert, and the miserable lostness of the heathen that refuse conversion. The heathen must remain outside the holy city, while conversion (robes washed in the blood of Jesus) brings the lost into the covenant city of God. The heathen remain under the power of darkness and sorcery and wickedness, and only conversion can save them.

Nowhere does scripture teach that the unrepentant will one day share in Christ and the Church's Victory over Satan. They remain BOUND in sin and Darkness forever.
 
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DavidPT

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Remember, just 2,000 years ago there were zero peoples outside of Israel that were permitted access to God. Think about that for a while.

That is what is meant by "nations no longer deceived".


Let's not forget though. satan isn't bound forever. He's only bound for a thousand years and then is loosed a little season. It doesn't matter whether the thousand years are literal or not, so not wanting to get in a debate about that in particular, because whether they are literal years or not, when they end satan is then loosed for a little season. What I'm getting at, what you submitted above appears to be your explanation of what it means while satan is bound. But what does it mean when he is loosed then?
 
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CGL1023

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If satan is bound in this present age like many assume, where in the following contexts does it allow for the time necessary in order to fulfill this?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan certainly can't be in the pit prior to this war breaking out in heaven. This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.

The text indicates he gets cast to the earth. So what does he do once he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. The text depicts a satan on the loose, and not a satan bound in a pit. According to Revelation 20, satan does not war with anyone during the thousand years. It is therefore only before the thousand years and after the thousand years that he can logically wage war on anyone. During the thousand years he would be in the pit.

If satan is bound in the pit in this age, it would have to be meaning after verse 17 above has been entirely fulfilled. But if the fulfilling of verse 17 spans all the way until the 2nd coming, where does this allow for the time necessary in order to bind satan a thousand years? Doesn't this then show Premil is the only thing that will work here?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 1 says---And I saw an angel come down from heaven. Where would the angel logically be coming down to? The earth of course. Doesn't this at least tell us that the binding of satan has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven? Because if it doesn't, that should mean the angel doesn't need to come down anywhere to bind satan, he could simply do it in heaven while satan still had access to heaven.

And where does Revelation 12 indicate satan is cast to? The earth. Yet according to the text in Revelation 12 when he is cast to the earth, he is in war mode, something he would not be in while bound in the pit. And if his binding has to follow the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17 in it's entirety, how then can any position but Premil fit the chronology of these events?

Here are two verses for consideration:
2 Corinthians 4:4 NLT
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Ephesians 2:2 NLT
2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
 
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Christopher0121

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If satan is bound in this present age like many assume, where in the following contexts does it allow for the time necessary in order to fulfill this?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan certainly can't be in the pit prior to this war breaking out in heaven. This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.

The text indicates he gets cast to the earth. So what does he do once he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. The text depicts a satan on the loose, and not a satan bound in a pit. According to Revelation 20, satan does not war with anyone during the thousand years. It is therefore only before the thousand years and after the thousand years that he can logically wage war on anyone. During the thousand years he would be in the pit.

If satan is bound in the pit in this age, it would have to be meaning after verse 17 above has been entirely fulfilled. But if the fulfilling of verse 17 spans all the way until the 2nd coming, where does this allow for the time necessary in order to bind satan a thousand years? Doesn't this then show Premil is the only thing that will work here?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 1 says---And I saw an angel come down from heaven. Where would the angel logically be coming down to? The earth of course. Doesn't this at least tell us that the binding of satan has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven? Because if it doesn't, that should mean the angel doesn't need to come down anywhere to bind satan, he could simply do it in heaven while satan still had access to heaven.

And where does Revelation 12 indicate satan is cast to? The earth. Yet according to the text in Revelation 12 when he is cast to the earth, he is in war mode, something he would not be in while bound in the pit. And if his binding has to follow the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17 in it's entirety, how then can any position but Premil fit the chronology of these events?

The only school of thought that I'm aware of that would say that Satan is bound in this age is the Preterist school of thought.

Preterism has many finer points of theology that are of excellent value. However, as with any theological model, there are weaknesses. However, I don't believe this is one of them.

Here's why...

No matter what one's theological position is, Satan is NOT omnipresent. This means that Satan is afflicting mankind through a vast network of demons and these demonic forces are operating in accordance to his will, in his name, and as extensions of his being.

So, one can believe that Satan still roams the Earth and is headquartered in the Bermuda Triangle dispatching demons and plotting against the church daily. Or, one can believe that Satan is currently bound, directing demonic forces from his cell, like some imprisoned mob boss. Either way, satanic activity doesn't present proof as to if Satan is bound or not.
 
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ewq1938

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How does any of this address the part about--- while satan is in the pit, nations can't be deceived during that time?

According to Amil Satan can still deceive the nations but in a limited way. Not supported by scripture of course.
 
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ewq1938

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Or, one can believe that Satan is currently bound, directing demonic forces from his cell, like some imprisoned mob boss. Either way, satanic activity doesn't present proof as to if Satan is bound or not.

That makes Satan's imprisonment not only a failure, but is completely meaningless. It only has meaning and purpose if he is completely unable to deceive outside of his prison. So, there won't be evil angels or demons or spirits running around causing havoc in the thousand year rod of iron rule. Christ and his immortal saints will be in full control of those things as well as the people they are caring for ie: the nations the rule.

Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

"Rule"
G4165
p??µa?´??
poimaino¯
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
 
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Blade

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"like many assume" no clue who MANY are...nope hes out there "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour".

After Jesus comes set foots..does somethings.. then bound about 1k and set free for a little while.. little while? Yeah Jesus said "I come QUICK!" lol.. little while could be a LONG time
 
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DavidPT

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No matter what one's theological position is, Satan is NOT omnipresent. This means that Satan is afflicting mankind through a vast network of demons and these demonic forces are operating in accordance to his will, in his name, and as extensions of his being.

I agree that's how he has to operate in general, because like you pointed out, he can't physically be in more than one place at a time. But even so, binding satan would be pointless if he were to still be able to go about business as usual, but from the pit in this case. How would that be any different than the way he already operates, that being through his demonic forces, as you already pointed out? IMO there has to be a difference between a bound satan and a loose satan. If a bound satan can still do all of these things he could do when not bound, what is the point of even binding him then?
 
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