The pre-tribulation rapture

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Let me ask you. Have you ever made a chronology on the End Times before?

Yes.

And none of it made any sense until I came to understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
It cannot be, because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.
The "time of the judgment of the dead" found in Revelation 11:18 has to be ignored by most people, because they do not know what to do with it. So, they try to ignore it.

The purpose of the Two Peoples of God Pretrib doctrine is to get the Church removed from the planet, so that God can go back and deal with Israel.

Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine fall apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Much of your last post consists of the doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.
It later spread like a virus through the modern evangelical Church, via the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

Many who have never heard of Darby, or Scofield, are still being spoon-fed the doctrine via their pastors, who have grown up watching the "Left Behind" movies.

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Yes.

And none of it made any sense until I came to understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
It cannot be, because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.
The "time of the judgment of the dead" found in Revelation 11:18 has to be ignored by most people, because they do not know what to do with it. So, they try to ignore it.

The purpose of the Two Peoples of God Pretrib doctrine is to get the Church removed from the planet, so that God can go back and deal with Israel.

Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine fall apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Much of your last post consists of the doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.
It later spread like a virus through the modern evangelical Church, via the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

Many who have never heard of Darby, or Scofield, are still being spoon-fed the doctrine via their pastors, who have grown up watching the "Left Behind" movies.

.

This is simply not true that the Rapture was started by Darby.

This article here reveals other sources before Darby:
Pretribulation Rapture Taught by Early Church – Prophecy in the News

But again, even without man made historical documents, the Bible alone teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture because it teaches Imminency (Matthew 25:13) (Luke 12:40). The days of the Tribulation will be shortened for the Elect's sake (Matthew 24:22). The church is not appointed unto Wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9), and the Bible clearly marks a beginning point (Revelation 6:17), and an ending point for the Wrath (Revelation 15:1) in the Tribulation. Paul looked for that blessed hope (Who is Jesus Christ) (See Titus 2:13). But you simply don't want to believe it.

This also does not have anything to do with excluding Jews, either. Anyone who accepts Christ, lives holy, and believes in His imminent return will be Raptured, whether they be a Jew or a Gentile. There is no difference. The only exception to the rule on this are the 144,000 and the two witnesses (Who are Moses and Elijah). No other Gentile believers are said to go through the Great Tribulation. One of the reasons for the Tribulation is to get the nation of Israel to repent.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ..." (Daniel 9:24). You forget that Jesus is a Jew, and we are grafted into the tree. But God has not forsaken His people (Israel). God has a plan for them and that includes the Tribulation so as to get them to repent. For the 7 year tribulation is called: "Jacob's Trouble" for a reason.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

Oh, and I came across Titus 2 again as a part of another study I am doing. Again, it says:

We should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:12-13).

How can you look for that glorious appear of Jesus Christ if you believe that other certain things need to happen beforehand? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you ask me.

BABerean2 · Apr 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
This is simply not true that the Rapture was started by Darby.

This article here reveals other sources before Darby:
Pretribulation Rapture Taught by Early Church – Prophecy in the News

But again, even without man made historical documents, the Bible alone teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture because it teaches Imminency (Matthew 25:13) (Luke 12:40). The days of the Tribulation will be shortened for the Elect's sake (Matthew 24:22). The church is not appointed unto Wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9), and the Bible clearly marks a beginning point (Revelation 6:17), and an ending point for the Wrath (Revelation 15:1) in the Tribulation. Paul looked for that blessed hope (Who is Jesus Christ) (See Titus 2:13). But you simply don't want to believe it.

This also does not have anything to do with excluding Jews, either. Anyone who accepts Christ, lives holy, and believes in His imminent return will be Raptured, whether they be a Jew or a Gentile. There is no difference. The only exception to the rule on this are the 144,000 and the two witnesses (Who are Moses and Elijah). No other Gentile believers are said to go through the Great Tribulation. One of the reasons for the Tribulation is to get the nation of Israel to repent.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, ..." (Daniel 9:24). You forget that Jesus is a Jew, and we are grafted into the tree. But God has not forsaken His people (Israel). God has a plan for them and that includes the Tribulation so as to get them to repent. For the 7 year tribulation is called: "Jacob's Trouble" for a reason.

I never said the pretrib doctrine started with Darby.

Darby brought the Two Peoples of God doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War. It is a historical fact.

You are completely ignoring the promise and the fulfillment of the New Covenant.
Why?
Because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

We find below that there is only one people of God.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Your reference to Daniel 9:24 ignores the fulfillment of the verse by Christ during the first century.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I have not forgotten that Jesus is a Jew.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church" as the promoters of your doctrine often imply.

All man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
The Two Peoples of God doctrine is an excellent example.

When will you deal with the fulfillment of the New Covenant, instead of trying to ignore it?

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Some of us understand that the appearing of Christ will be glorious, no matter when it happens. He is our Blessed Hope.

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

BABerean2 said:
I never said the pretrib doctrine started with Darby.

Darby brought the Two Peoples of God doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War. It is a historical fact.

You are completely ignoring the promise and the fulfillment of the New Covenant.
Why?
Because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

We find below that there is only one people of God.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Your reference to Daniel 9:24 ignores the fulfillment of the verse by Christ during the first century.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I have not forgotten that Jesus is a Jew.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church" as the promoters of your doctrine often imply.

All man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
The Two Peoples of God doctrine is an excellent example.

When will you deal with the fulfillment of the New Covenant, instead of trying to ignore it?

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Some of us understand that the appearing of Christ will be glorious, no matter when it happens. He is our Blessed Hope.

.

Well, you are not even listening to anything I have said and you are just preaching what you have been taught. Again, I don't believe there is any difference between the Jew and the Gentile in Christ. Jews and Gentiles in Christ will both be raptured together in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. But there were promises given to Israel. If you were to read Romans 9-11, Paul is concerned for God's national people he had chosen in the OT. The end times is about bringing them back (on a national level). It's about getting them to repent so they can also be included in the New Covenant program. There is no.... salvation program for Jews that is different for Gentiles. They all come to Jesus the same way. They all walk in the same commands in following Jesus. The only difference is in the way God is chastening them. God is going to chasten Israel in a specific way to get them to repent. For have you not read 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that talks about the man of sin (the antichrist) appearing in the temple and showing himself that he is God? What temple? This is the Jewish temple. Granted, God is concerned with the Gentiles repenting, too. But the ultimate goal all centers around Israel. God has not forsaken His national people (Israel). Paul talks about how salvation has went to the Gentiles because the Jews (nationally speaking) have rejected Him (the Messiah). But this does not mean God does not have a program or plan to bring them back.

Also, while Jewish believers and Gentile believers are all a part of the same body in Christ, to ignore that there is no distinction whatsoever between Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians is to simply ignore Scripture. Yes, it is true there are no two peoples (on a spiritual level - salvation wise), but the land promises were given to Israel and not to the Gentiles. Jesus even said salvation was of the Jews. I believe we will one day be resurrected after the physical flesh and blood body of Jesus upon the New Earth. Jesus was a Jew, so we will then have Jewish DNA in the resurrection. This is why we will become joint heirs one day (and be of the seed of Abraham). So we will not be Gentiles anymore. We will be Jewish like Christ. Paul also says one is not a Jew outwardly but they can be a Jew inwardly. So by our obedience to Christ within the New Covenant we can be like Jews and be included into God's Jewish program. It was never about two different programs, but just one. The Jews were supposed to be a light unto the Gentile nations. But seeing they failed in their mission because of their own corruption with idols and other sins, the man Christ Jesus (Who is a Jew) had fulfilled that mission on their behalf. Jesus brought a way to save Gentiles, and the message of salvation (the good news) went out to all nations (and not just Jewish nations).

But again, if you think there is no distinction whatsoever between Jew and Gentile in no way whatsoever, then what about the 144,000? These are Messianic Jews from Israelite tribes. They are specifically sealed (protected by GOD) so as to go through the Tribulation (at least in part anyways).

_Dave_ · Apr 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Well, you are not even listening to anything I have said and you are just preaching what you have been taught. Again, I don't believe there is any difference between the Jew and the Gentile in Christ. Jews and Gentiles in Christ will both be raptured together in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. But there were promises given to Israel. If you were to read Romans 9-11, Paul is concerned for God's national people he had chosen in the OT. The end times is about bringing them back (on a national level). It's about getting them to repent so they can also be included in the New Covenant program. There is no.... salvation program for Jews that is different for Gentiles. They all come to Jesus the same way. They all walk in the same commands in following Jesus. The only difference is in the way God is chastening them. God is going to chasten Israel in a specific way to get them to repent. For have you not read 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that talks about the man of sin (the antichrist) appearing in the temple and showing himself that he is God? What temple? This is the Jewish temple. Granted, God is concerned with the Gentiles repenting, too. But the ultimate goal all centers around Israel. God has not forsaken His national people (Israel). Paul talks about how salvation has went to the Gentiles because the Jews (nationally speaking) have rejected Him (the Messiah). But this does not mean God does not have a program or plan to bring them back.

Also, while Jewish believers and Gentile believers are all a part of the same body in Christ, to ignore that there is no distinction whatsoever between Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians is to simply ignore Scripture. Yes, it is true there are no two peoples (on a spiritual level - salvation wise), but the land promises were given to Israel and not to the Gentiles. Jesus even said salvation was of the Jews. I believe we will one day be resurrected after the physical flesh and blood body of Jesus upon the New Earth. Jesus was a Jew, so we will then have Jewish DNA in the resurrection. This is why we will become joint heirs one day (and be of the seed of Abraham). So we will not be Gentiles anymore. We will be Jewish like Christ. Paul also says one is not a Jew outwardly but they can be a Jew inwardly. So by our obedience to Christ within the New Covenant we can be like Jews and be included into God's Jewish program. It was never about two different programs, but just one. The Jews were supposed to be a light unto the Gentile nations. But seeing they failed in their mission because of their own corruption with idols and other sins, the man Christ Jesus (Who is a Jew) had fulfilled that mission on their behalf. Jesus brought a way to save Gentiles, and the message of salvation (the good news) went out to all nations (and not just Jewish nations).

But again, if you think there is no distinction whatsoever between Jew and Gentile in no way whatsoever, then what about the 144,000? These are Messianic Jews from Israelite tribes. They are specifically sealed (protected by GOD) so as to go through the Tribulation (at least in part anyways).

Jason, that was a very clear and precise short explanation of the exact plan of God for national Israel and for us.

Thank you.

BABerean2 · Apr 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
But again, if you think there is no distinction whatsoever between Jew and Gentile in no way whatsoever, then what about the 144,000? These are Messianic Jews from Israelite tribes. They are specifically sealed (protected by GOD) so as to go through the Tribulation (at least in part anyways).

What did James say about the twelve tribes?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Why do you have to ignore the passage above to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work?

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

_Dave_ said:
Jason, that was a very clear and precise short explanation of the exact plan of God for national Israel and for us.

Thank you.

You are most welcome.

May God bless you today.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

BABerean2 said:
What did James say about the twelve tribes?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Why do you have to ignore the passage above to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work?

.

Again, you are not reading anything I have said. I have stated that I do not believe in a Two People of God Doctrine. I don't believe in Replacement Theology. I believe all are saved the same way (Which is by Jesus). I believe the Jews will repent on a national level before Christ returns. It's one of the reasons for the Tribulation. It is to get Israel to repent so that they can be saved.

In fact, I understand the relevance of the Scripture you brought forth. Are you saying that the 144,000 are not going to exist in the End Times? Are you saying that the 144,000 are not Messianic Jews (i.e. Jews who believe in Jesus)? Please be a little more clear.

BABerean2 · Apr 4, 2019

You just said there is a difference between Messianic Christians, and Gentile Christians.
Paul had to correct Peter for what you are promoting.

Gal_2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

The only way to find out who is genetically related to the Jews of Jesus time is with a DNA test.

Based on modern DNA studies, most people now alive on the planet are genetically related to Abraham.
Why?
Because the ten northern tribes were taken into captivity many years before the time of Christ, and their Abrahamic DNA was spread all through Asia, and Europe.
Once again, this is a fact you must ignore to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Do you pass out DNA test kits at the door of your church?

Why would you pass out DNA kits, based on Titus 3:9, and the results of DNA results such as those found below?

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You just said there is a difference between Messianic Christians, and Gentile Christians.
Paul had to correct Peter for what you are promoting.

Gal_2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

The only way to find out who is genetically related to the Jews of Jesus time is with a DNA test.

Based on modern DNA studies, most people now alive on the planet are genetically related to Abraham.
Why?
Because the ten northern tribes were taken into captivity many years before the time of Christ, and their Abrahamic DNA was spread all through Asia, and Europe.
Once again, this is a fact you must ignore to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Do you pass out DNA test kits at the door of your church?

Why would you pass out DNA kits, based on Titus 3:9, and the results of DNA results such as those found below?

.

Okay, first, there is a huge difference between being a Jew that has an ancestry that can be traced back to Abraham by a line of Jews (like the 144,000) vs. those who have co-mingled with Jews. Oh, and I recently did a DNA test to trace my ancestry; Only 0.2% of my DNA is from the Mediterranean Sea. That does not make me a Jew. In order to be considered a Jew, you have to actually have to have a significant amount of Jewish DNA so as to be citizen of Israel and or proof of ancestry (via a family line).

Second, you keep falsely claiming I believe in this "Two People of God" doctrine when I told you that salvation is all the same way. There is only one doctrine or set of teachings given to both Jews and Gentiles. God's chastening program is merely different in regards to the End Times. A difference of chastening and keeping certain promises (exclusive to Israel) are not a new teaching or new way of salvation or new doctrine. So you can keep falsely accusing me if you like, but I do not believe in any "Two People of God" doctrine. Doctrine means .... teaching. There is no different teaching for Jews vs. the Gentiles under the New Covenant.

Three, before the cross, Jesus would barely even talk with Gentiles. He refused to go to Gentile places to preach the good news (for that time). Granted, things have changed after the cross, but you act like Jesus regarded the Jews in the same way as the Gentiles always (When this is not the case). Again, this is not some kind of "Two People of God" Doctrine or Teaching. Salvation is the same for all by one seeking forgiveness with Jesus Christ (believing in His death and resurrection on their behalf), and then by keeping His commandments (or by following Jesus).

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

@BABerean2:

Again, you did not really answer my questions before.
I will ask you my questions again along with two more.

Question #1. WHO are the 144,000?
Question #2. Are the 144,000 Messianic Jews who will exist in the End Times (During the Tribulation)?
Question #3. Are Gentiles co-mingled in the 144,000?
Question #4. Is God dealing differently with the 144,000 than say other believers?

BABerean2 · Apr 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
In order to be considered a Jew, you have to actually have to have a significant amount of Jewish DNA so as to be citizen of Israel and or proof of ancestry (via a family line).

Based on the above, you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to modern Israeli citizenship.

There is no absolute DNA standard for a modern person to become a citizen of Israel.

If you have a mother who is considered "Jewish" (No DNA standard), but you have converted to Christianity, you will not be granted citizenship.

What is your "significant amount" standard?

To become an Israeli citizen a person must profess their faith in Orthodox Judaism, before an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, and anyone who had formerly considered themselves to be a Christian must renounce their faith in Christ.

.................................................

As for the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation, you have to remember that the book is full of symbols.
For example in Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals that the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the "churches".

The identity of the 144,000 is found below in the writings of the Apostle Paul, since Paul used the same symbology.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

We find the same definition of the 144,000 in the "twelve tribes" of James 1:1-3, which you are attempting to ignore.
Who do you think James was talking to?

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Based on the above, you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to modern Israeli citizenship.

I am aware of the different ways a person can be a citizen. My wife is from Brazil. So I know that there are different ways people can be citizens to the US and other countries.

How to Become an Israeli Citizen

My point (that I should have clarified) is that they cannot technically be a Jewish citizen in regards to their blood line if they have no blood ancestry tracing to any Jewish people. A non Jewish person would have to live in Israel for several years as their permanent residence before they can apply for citizenship. But they cannot apply for citizenship under the grounds that they have Jewish DNA or ancestry if they don't have any proof of this. Their application would be denied if they went by this route.

You said:
There is no DNA standard for a modern person to become a citizen of Israel.

If you have a "Jewish" mother, but have converted to Christianity, you will not be granted citizenship.

What is your "significant amount" standard?

To become an Israeli citizen a person must profess their faith in Orthodox Judaism, before an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, and anyone who had formerly considered themselves to be a Christian must renounce their faith in Christ.

Again, they would not technically be a Jew by blood.
Jesus was a Jew by blood.
His family blood line can be traced to Abraham (the Hebrew).

You said:
As for the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation, you have to remember that the book is full of symbols.
For example in Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals that the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the "churches".

The identity of the 144,000 is found below in the writings of the Apostle Paul, since Paul used the same symbology.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

We find the same definition of the 144,000 in the "twelve tribes" of James 1:1-3, which you are attempting to ignore.
Who do you think James was talking to?

Yes, the 144,000 are Messianic Jews. However, the apostle John was not referring to the 144,000 as the Messianic Jews mentioned in the book of James. That is silly. The 144,000 are future Messianic Jews mentioned in Revelation. For the 144,000 are clearly mentioned as being protected and sealed during the Tribulation period (Which is yet future).

Revelation 7:1-8

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

BABerean2 · Apr 4, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am aware of the different ways a person can be a citizen. My wife is from Brazil. So I know that there are different ways people can be citizens to the US and other countries.

How to Become an Israeli Citizen

My point (that I should have clarified) is that they cannot technically be a Jewish citizen in regards to their blood line if they have no blood ancestry tracing to any Jewish people. A non Jewish person would have to live in Israel for several years as their permanent residence before they can apply for citizenship. But they cannot apply for citizenship under the grounds that they have Jewish DNA or ancestry if they don't have any proof of this. Their application would be denied if they went by this route.

Again, they would not technically be a Jew by blood.
Jesus was a Jew by blood.
His family blood line can be traced to Abraham (the Hebrew).

Yes, the 144,000 are Messianic Jews. However, the apostle John was not referring to the 144,000 as the Messianic Jews mentioned in the book of James. That is silly. The 144,000 are future Messianic Jews mentioned in Revelation. For the 144,000 are clearly mentioned as being protected and sealed during the Tribulation period (Which is yet future).

Revelation 7:1-8

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Since the ten northern tribes were carried into captivity hundreds of years before the time of Christ, and those pure bloodlines no longer exist, what you are proposing would be like trying to put a Woolly Mammoth in your local zoo.
They are now extinct.

Therefore, the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation must be symbolic, based on what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, and the fact that those tribes no longer exist as a pure bloodline.

Go to the modern State of Israel and try to find someone from the tribe of Gad.
How many do you think you will find?

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Since the ten northern tribes were carried into captivity hundreds of years before the time of Christ, and those pure bloodlines no longer exist, what you are proposing would be like trying to put a Woolly Mammoth in your local zoo.
They are now extinct.

Therefore, the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation must be symbolic, based on what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, and the fact that those tribes no longer exist as a pure bloodline.

Go to the modern State of Israel and try to find someone from the tribe of Gad.
How many do you think you will find?

.

I may not be able to find them, but God can find them. Your lack of unbelief in the future prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation does not undo its truthfulness. The 6th seal has clearly not happened yet. If it did, people in history would have reported in having seen the Lord sitting upon the throne in heaven. I am pretty sure that has not happened in history, unless you believe in some form of Preterism or something.

BABerean2 · Apr 5, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I may not be able to find them, but God can find them. Your lack of unbelief in the future prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation does not undo its truthfulness. The 6th seal has clearly not happened yet. If it did, people in history would have reported in having seen the Lord sitting upon the throne in heaven. I am pretty sure that has not happened in history, unless you believe in some form of Preterism or something.

I have already said that the end of Revelation 6 is the future Second Coming of Christ.

Based on what you have said above, you must think that since the two witnesses are described as the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks. they must be men which are made of wood and metal.

If the 144,000 is not symbolic, why would there be exactly 12,000 from each tribe?
During the Exodus was there exactly 12,000 in each tribe?

.......................................................

We could argue over the identity of the 144,000 until Christ returns.

However, an understanding of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, kills your Two Peoples of God doctrine, and its pretrib removal of the Church.

It is the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, which slaughters the sacred cow of modern Dispensational Theology.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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Bible Highlighter · Apr 5, 2019

@BABerean2:

Moving on from talking with you. So this will be my last post to you on this topic.

One, you keep falsely claiming I believe something that I do not believe (i.e. the Two People of God doctrine).

Two, you are not really offering a rational explanation to the 144,000. The general rules of applying basic metaphor and standard literal reading have to go ignored in order to make your own personal view of the End Times work. No doubt, if the existence of 144,000 Messianic Jews in the End Times supported your view, you would no doubt believe as I do. But it doesn't and so you are forced to come up some odd interpretation on the 144,000. Again, a standard basic normal reading of the 144,000 does not lead a person to believe that they are not real living Messianic Jews living during the End Times. An angel (having the seal of the living God) cries out to the other four angels to not hurt the Earth and the Sea yet until they have sealed the servants of God (i.e. the 144,000).

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." (Revelation 7:2-3).

If the 144,000 are not real people, then the angels are also not real, and they also have to be allegorized in this text, too. The plagues have to be allegorized in this text, too.
In other words, if this is all a metaphor, we have to have an explanation in Scripture that gives us some kind of interpreted literal meaning of what the angels represent, and what the plagues represent, and what the seals represent, etc.

The angels are doing something here that is very real.
You want me to believe that they are referring to some metaphor?

For an angel is concerned about a people that are metaphors?
For the one angel tells the other angels not to harm the Earth until he has sealed (protected) them (i.e. the 144,000).

What you believe here is just a blatant disregard of the text.
But believe as you will.
I can only pray and hope that you will see by the working of God.

SeventyOne · Apr 5, 2019

Monk Brendan said:
I've been saying for years that those who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down to worship antichrist.

At the Mystical Supper, Jesus prayed, "I ask that You do not take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the Evil One."

You and other rapturists pray, "Don't listen to Jesus. Take us out of this world."

Which prayer is the Father more likely to grant?

When Jesus prayed that, He was discussing those He was with in the world as described in John 17:12. He doesn't expand on the group to include people like myself until John 17:20. I'm not included in the passage you cited.

Also, I have no idea why you think pre-tribbers would be the first to worsahip the AC, unless you have some misguided notion that we aren't actually true believers. If that's the case, you need to repent of your hatred towards us.

SeventyOne · Apr 5, 2019

BCsenior said:
You obviously do not understand that the church
is made up of vastly different BACs!

Sorry, but I'm not going to accept such rebuke from someone the preaches a false gospel.

The pre-tribulation rapture

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