If satan is bound in this present age---

DavidPT

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If satan is bound in this present age like many assume, where in the following contexts does it allow for the time necessary in order to fulfill this?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan certainly can't be in the pit prior to this war breaking out in heaven. This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.

The text indicates he gets cast to the earth. So what does he do once he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. The text depicts a satan on the loose, and not a satan bound in a pit. According to Revelation 20, satan does not war with anyone during the thousand years. It is therefore only before the thousand years and after the thousand years that he can logically wage war on anyone. During the thousand years he would be in the pit.

If satan is bound in the pit in this age, it would have to be meaning after verse 17 above has been entirely fulfilled. But if the fulfilling of verse 17 spans all the way until the 2nd coming, where does this allow for the time necessary in order to bind satan a thousand years? Doesn't this then show Premil is the only thing that will work here?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 1 says---And I saw an angel come down from heaven. Where would the angel logically be coming down to? The earth of course. Doesn't this at least tell us that the binding of satan has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven? Because if it doesn't, that should mean the angel doesn't need to come down anywhere to bind satan, he could simply do it in heaven while satan still had access to heaven.

And where does Revelation 12 indicate satan is cast to? The earth. Yet according to the text in Revelation 12 when he is cast to the earth, he is in war mode, something he would not be in while bound in the pit. And if his binding has to follow the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17 in it's entirety, how then can any position but Premil fit the chronology of these events?
 

HTacianas

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If satan is bound in this present age like many assume, where in the following contexts does it allow for the time necessary in order to fulfill this?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan certainly can't be in the pit prior to this war breaking out in heaven. This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.

The text indicates he gets cast to the earth. So what does he do once he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. The text depicts a satan on the loose, and not a satan bound in a pit. According to Revelation 20, satan does not war with anyone during the thousand years. It is therefore only before the thousand years and after the thousand years that he can logically wage war on anyone. During the thousand years he would be in the pit.

If satan is bound in the pit in this age, it would have to be meaning after verse 17 above has been entirely fulfilled. But if the fulfilling of verse 17 spans all the way until the 2nd coming, where does this allow for the time necessary in order to bind satan a thousand years? Doesn't this then show Premil is the only thing that will work here?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 1 says---And I saw an angel come down from heaven. Where would the angel logically be coming down to? The earth of course. Doesn't this at least tell us that the binding of satan has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven? Because if it doesn't, that should mean the angel doesn't need to come down anywhere to bind satan, he could simply do it in heaven while satan still had access to heaven.

And where does Revelation 12 indicate satan is cast to? The earth. Yet according to the text in Revelation 12 when he is cast to the earth, he is in war mode, something he would not be in while bound in the pit. And if his binding has to follow the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17 in it's entirety, how then can any position but Premil fit the chronology of these events?


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Luk 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
 
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DavidPT

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Since it is admitted in the OP that it is assumed by some in error that hasatan is bound,
there's really nothing to question , is there ?

Later, when hasatan is bound for a thousand years, let's meet for coffee, eh ?


What exactly do you mean? Why wouldn't their assumptions be in question here?
 
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DavidPT

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Luk 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


And your point is exactly what? Are you trying to debunk the OP, or are you agreeing with the OP? Pretty hard to tell from what you submitted there.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What exactly do you mean? Why wouldn't their assumptions be in question here?
Why question (post about) any assumption that is in error, any assumption that is contrary to God's Word , I guess is what I mean.

Whenever the disciples got something wrong, Jesus directly chastised and corrected them . He did not discuss their assumptions.
 
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DavidPT

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Why question (post about) any assumption that is in error, any assumption that is contrary to God's Word , I guess is what I mean.

Whenever the disciples got something wrong, Jesus directly chastised and corrected them . He did not discuss their assumptions.


Maybe so, yet there are these ongoing debates though, such as Premil vs Amil, for instance. This thread has a lot to do with that then.
 
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This at least tells us his being bound in the pit has to follow sometime after this war in heaven. I would think everyone at least agrees with that.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is bound by a chain which means to have it wrapped around him preventing arm and leg movement ie: incapable of moving. Whether the chain is spiritual or literal doesn't change what it's purpose and it's result. It's is irrelevant whether it's made of steel, gold, plasma or kryptonite.

He is also cast into a bottomless pit which is where the Genesis fallen angels are also kept. Satan is "shut up" in this pit which is a prison for angelic beings. He is also "sealed". So there are three things that bind and imprison Satan both physically and spiritually. Satan cannot leave the pit or influence anything outside of the pit nor in the pit. He is completely and utterly incapacitated. Any doctrine that teaches anything otherwise is changing what the scriptures present. When this happens, the world will be without Satan's deceptions and lies for the first time in history. This is the perfect time for the gospel to finally reach those who normally would be deceived and incapable of hearing or accepting the gospel. In addition these same people will be under the shepherding rule of Jesus and his resurrected priests and kings who are Christian saints, many having been murdered in the great tribulation.

Any doctrine that teaches Satan will have any amount of influence and mobility and power outside of the pit, and can deceive anyone during the thousand years is teaching things that scripture does not teach and in fact contradicts what scripture does teach about Satan and that time period.


Amil: Satan is like a dog on a long chain that is able to move around his own territory, doing what he wants and deceiving people but is "limited" by the gospel.

Premil: Satan is bound by a chain (most likely this means to have the chain wrapped around him so he is disabled) and then cast into a pit, is shut up in the pit, and then a seal placed on him. This means Satan cannot deceive anyone in the slightest, this means complete control over Satan, this means Satan cannot get out of the pit nor influence anyone else at all.

Rev 20: bound a thousand years, cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

Premil is the only doctrine that matches the language in Rev 20.
 
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DavidPT

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Amil: Satan is like a dog on a long chain that is able to move around his own territory, doing what he wants and deceiving people but is "limited" by the gospel.


Even if this could be a possibility, yet according to what I submitted in the OP though , where would Amils come up with the amount of time necessary in order to satisfy a thousand year binding, where to Amils it's not literally meaning a thousand years, but is meaning thousands of years? IMO the OP shows that the binding can't fit anywhere within the times specified in Revelation 12:7-17. And once verse 17 is fulfilled entirely, we would already be experiencing the 2nd coming. And if the binding is placed there, that doesn't prove Amil, it proves Premil.


I'm hoping if there are any non Premils participating in this thread, that they are able to follow my reasoning laid out in the OP, thus stick to it rather than ignore it altogether and then claim their position is correct, regardless, without them even bothering to work through what I actually presented in the OP. I'm probably hoping for too much though.
 
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Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is bound by a chain which means to have it wrapped around him preventing arm and leg movement ie: incapable of moving. Whether the chain is spiritual or literal doesn't change what it's purpose and it's result. It's is irrelevant whether it's made of steel, gold, plasma or kryptonite.

He is also cast into a bottomless pit which is where the Genesis fallen angels are also kept. Satan is "shut up" in this pit which is a prison for angelic beings. He is also "sealed". So there are three things that bind and imprison Satan both physically and spiritually. Satan cannot leave the pit or influence anything outside of the pit nor in the pit. He is completely and utterly incapacitated. Any doctrine that teaches anything otherwise is changing what the scriptures present. When this happens, the world will be without Satan's deceptions and lies for the first time in history. This is the perfect time for the gospel to finally reach those who normally would be deceived and incapable of hearing or accepting the gospel. In addition these same people will be under the shepherding rule of Jesus and his resurrected priests and kings who are Christian saints, many having been murdered in the great tribulation.

Any doctrine that teaches Satan will have any amount of influence and mobility and power outside of the pit, and can deceive anyone during the thousand years is teaching things that scripture does not teach and in fact contradicts what scripture does teach about Satan and that time period.


Amil: Satan is like a dog on a long chain that is able to move around his own territory, doing what he wants and deceiving people but is "limited" by the gospel.

Premil: Satan is bound by a chain (most likely this means to have the chain wrapped around him so he is disabled) and then cast into a pit, is shut up in the pit, and then a seal placed on him. This means Satan cannot deceive anyone in the slightest, this means complete control over Satan, this means Satan cannot get out of the pit nor influence anyone else at all.

Rev 20: bound a thousand years, cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

Premil is the only doctrine that matches the language in Rev 20.
"Bind" does not mean "rendered powerless" but "limited in power."

St. Augustine said we are living in the "1000 years" between Christ's first coming and second coming.

There are two other places in the Bible that mention 1000 years, and it's clear from the context that these years are not to be understood in an earthly sense as mortals measure time.
 
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DavidPT

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"Bind" does not mean "rendered powerless" but "limited in power."

St. Augustine said we are living in the "1000 years" between Christ's first coming and second coming.

There are two other places in the Bible that mention 1000 years, and it's clear from the context that these years are not to be understood in an earthly sense as mortals measure time.


Where do you see satan limited in power in Revelation 12:7-17, for instance? I can kind of see him being limited in power by being cast out of heaven. Yet when he reaches the earth though, the text indicates he is full of wrath. He would not be full of wrath while bound in the pit though. I don't see that making sense.
 
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"Bind" does not mean "rendered powerless" but "limited in power."

That's not what the text presents. Being bound, cast in a pit, shut up and then have a seal placed upon is not "limited in power". The text shows complete control and imprisonment.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Where do you see satan limited in power in Revelation 12:7-17, for instance? I can kind of see him being limited in power by being cast out of heaven. Yet when he reaches the earth though, the text indicates he is full of wrath. He would not be full of wrath while bound in the pit though. I don't see that making sense.
A 6 year old having a temper tantrum is full of wrath, but he can't do anything about it, can he?

Satan can do no more against us even now without God's permission.
 
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What does it mean for 'Satan to be in heaven'?

It means that he is an object of worship (he will be like God in heaven), which started at the 1st Trumpet, the 'day of the Lord' which is the 'day that comes where the man of sin is revealed' in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

The 'beast that was, is not, & yet is' means that the 'was' portion started at the 1st Trumpet, becomes 'is not' (from the way the timeline looks to me, lasts 266 days, pregnancy term length), then becomes 'yet is' at the 'beast from the sea & earth', then is bound for the '1000 years'. The 'yet is' beast is the 'beast that is coming up from the abyss' that kills the 2 witnesses Revelation 11:7.

Once this beast that ascends, the 'yet is' beast, the beast from the abyss (means sea & earth) is destroyed, Satan is bound for the symbolic 1000 years.

(6th Seal starts 1335 days, then the 266 days, [[subtract 1260 days from the end of the 266 days to get the 2 witnesses 1260 days]], then the start of the 7th Trumpet beast from the sea & earth)
 
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DavidPT

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No matter to me.


My point basically was this. If being bound is what leads to his being cast into the LOF, why then is he loosed before he is cast into the LOF? IOW he is not even bound when he is initially cast into the LOF.
 
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