Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

DM25 said:

If you're preaching good works for salvation and to do works to get saved you are lost, simple as that. And by your previous post you made it seemed like you were one of the the people who are like that... You seem to ignore that legalism is a major problem in the church today too. Please repent from that, that post you made before came off as kind of prideful.

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I think it's rather prideful to believe that no works are necessary and maybe YOU are one of "those".

And who are you to determine who is saved and who is not?

You mean to tell me that if I DO good works, I'm LOST...

and if I DO NOT DO good works,,,,I'm saved??

What kind of backwards thinking is that?

Isaiah 5:20
20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!


And why are you so ready to attack and judge?
I praise God for those that are willing to do HIS work here on earth.
Ephesians 2:10

GodsGrace101 said:

I think it's rather prideful to believe that no works are necessary and maybe YOU are one of "those".

And who are you to determine who is saved and who is not?

You mean to tell me that if I DO good works, I'm LOST...

and if I DO NOT DO good works,,,,I'm saved??

What kind of backwards thinking is that?

Isaiah 5:20
20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!


And why are you so ready to attack and judge?
I praise God for those that are willing to do HIS work here on earth.
Ephesians 2:10

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No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying if you rely on your works for salvation, and not the finished work of the cross alone, you aren't saved (or you are in a season of deception). Because no one can trust in themselves and Jesus at the same time. God will say to these people who tell him "Lord Lord didn't we perform many works"? But works are like filthy rags. God is not pleased with people like you who think works save. This is biblical fact, not opinion.

If you do good works out of genuine love for God, and because you're already saved and know that, and out of reasonable and good service to the Lord, you are ABSOLUTELY SAVED. Because you are not relying on your works for salvation, but doing good works because you are already saved and you love God.

If you don't do any good works when you're saved, well you're probably a baby in Christ and God will give you a spanking and push you in the right direction and he will sanctify you. He's not gonna throw you in hell though.... That's false teaching I hear that's very common.

GodsGrace101 said:

Isaiah 5:20
20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

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I will defend the gospel until the day I die. And you are the one who is calling good "the gospel" evil, and work-based salvation (evil) good... You have it backwards.

No it is not prideful to think Jesus alone saved you. It certainly is prideful to think your works save you though.... This is straight from a spirit of pride and false religion and pharisee-mindset. Also hypocrisy too. FYI, you don't know if people who preach the real gospel put in more good works than you. You only make assumptions, but what did God say? Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. The bible says we shouldn't boast.... So if you think you do more for the kingdom than people who believe in free grace, think again! You only boast about it. Those who believe in the real gospel put in good works for the kingdom in secret without boasting, and they also know these things don't pertain to salvation.

Why am I ready to attack? Because IT'S THE GOSPEL. I don't take false teachings on the gospel lightly.

GodsGrace101 said:

I think it's rather prideful to believe that no works are necessary and maybe YOU are one of "those".

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Rather, it's prideful to believe that works ARE necessary for salvation. As if any fallen sinful human being can actually help the perfect Lord Jesus in providing salvation.

And who are you to determine who is saved and who is not?

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Actually, anyone who reads and understands the Bible can easily determine who is saved and who is not. I don't mean naming names. I mean what's necessary.

You mean to tell me that if I DO good works, I'm LOST...

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He said anyone who thinks they are saved by doing good works.

and if I DO NOT DO good works,,,,I'm saved??

What kind of backwards thinking is that?

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Rather, backwards understanding.

GodsGrace101 said:

I think it's rather prideful to believe that no works are necessary and maybe YOU are one of "those".

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fran, check this out.......

Eph 2:9~~New American Standard Bible
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The 'boast' would be PRIDE from the works.

DM25 said:

No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying if you rely on your works for salvation, and not the finished work of the cross alone, you aren't saved (or you are in a season of deception). Because no one can trust in themselves and Jesus at the same time. God will say to these people who tell him "Lord Lord didn't we perform many works"? But works are like filthy rags. God is not pleased with people like you who think works save. This is biblical fact, not opinion.

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Of course this is what you are saying:
Works do not save you.
I'm saying they DO.
YOU are saying that if I do good deeds then I'm NOT saved.

Show me some scripture where Jesus said to depend ONLY on HIM....
The N.T. I read tells me a whole bunch of things I have to do to be saved. If we're reading the same bible,,,you better be doing some of them too, since it's what Jesus wants.

Also, I'm rather tired of hearing that our good works are as filthy rags. If this is true,,,then Jesus lied to us and we're ALL lost.

I think God is very please that I do what He asks me to do .... I think He's unhappy because I don't do this all the time and He wishes I'd do this more.

Why all the biblical verses on doing good works/deeds? Do I really need to post them?

If you do good works out of genuine love for God, and because you're already saved and know that, and out of reasonable and good service to the Lord, you are ABSOLUTELY SAVED. Because you are not relying on your works for salvation, but doing good works because you are already saved and you love God.

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I stated the above in my last post:
I THINK everybody on this thread is saved and we should proceed with that assumption....I don't see any atheists here.

If you don't do any good works when you're saved, well you're probably a baby in Christ and God will give you a spanking and push you in the right direction and he will sanctify you. He's not gonna throw you in hell though.... That's false teaching I hear that's very common.

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I agree with the above.
I just think we need to stop talking about good works as if it were a bad thing to do.

DM25 said:

I will defend the gospel until the day I die. And you are the one who is calling good "the gospel" evil, and work-based salvation (evil) good... You have it backwards.

No it is not prideful to think Jesus alone saved you. It certainly is prideful to think your works save you though.... This is straight from a spirit of pride and false religion and pharisee-mindset. Also hypocrisy too. FYI, you don't know if people who preach the real gospel put in more good works than you. You only make assumptions, but what did God say? Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. The bible says we shouldn't boast.... So if you think you do more for the kingdom than people who believe in free grace, think again! You only boast about it. Those who believe in the real gospel put in good works for the kingdom in secret without boasting, and they also know these things don't pertain to salvation.

Why am I ready to attack? Because IT'S THE GOSPEL. I don't take false teachings on the gospel lightly.

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OK. Looks like you need some scripture.
Here it is,and it's not all of it....there's PLENTY more...

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Matthew 6:1-4
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Titus 2:7-9
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame,

James 1:27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Titus 3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

Colossians 3:23
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Gr8Grace said:

fran, check this out.......

Eph 2:9~~New American Standard Bible
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The 'boast' would be PRIDE from the works.

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Hi Gr,

Jesus didn't say to be afraid of doing good works because they might cause pride....

He just taught to do good works. I posted a whole list of verses in post no. 67,,,there's a whole lot more on doing good deeds.

Pride comes in when someone does something and then goes around boasting about it.

It is NOT boastful to actually DO the good deeds...God actually demands that we do good deeds.

If we don't do them....
Who will ?

FreeGrace2 said:

Rather, it's prideful to believe that works ARE necessary for salvation. As if any fallen sinful human being can actually help the perfect Lord Jesus in providing salvation.


Actually, anyone who reads and understands the Bible can easily determine who is saved and who is not. I don't mean naming names. I mean what's necessary.


He said anyone who thinks they are saved by doing good works.


Rather, backwards understanding.

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To whom was the N.T. written?
To unsaved persons or to believers?

It was written to believers.....

So WHY all the verses on works,,,if they were ALREADY saved? (see post 67).

GodsGrace101 said:

Of course this is what you are saying:
Works do not save you.
I'm saying they DO.

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All the while have NO verses that support your opinion.

In fact, there are verses to the opposite. Works DON'T save you.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

GodsGrace101 said:

To whom was the N.T. written?
To unsaved persons or to believers?

It was written to believers.....

So WHY all the verses on works,,,if they were ALREADY saved? (see post 67).

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Easy peasy.

We (believers) were created IN Christ Jesus FOR good works. Eph 2:10

In fact, believers are elected for good works. Eph 1:4

Also, believers are called to do good works.

But, NONE of the commands for good works are linked to getting or staying saved.

FreeGrace2 said:

Easy peasy.

We (believers) were created IN Christ Jesus FOR good works. Eph 2:10

In fact, believers are elected for good works. Eph 1:4

Also, believers are called to do good works.

But, NONE of the commands for good works are linked to getting or staying saved.

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This is for @BCsenior also....

Maybe works is the wrong word....

However, I DO believe that it's necessary to do these good works to stay saved...

Or maybe I should be saying that it's necessary to obey God to stay saved and He did say to do good deeds.

GodsGrace101 said:

This is for @BCsenior also....

Maybe works is the wrong word....

However, I DO believe that it's necessary to do these good works to stay saved...

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How come you've never provided any verse that says this? I'm serious. Why believe something that the Bible doesn't say?

Or maybe I should be saying that it's necessary to obey God to stay saved and He did say to do good deeds.

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Why do you kick against the goads? Jesus SAID those He gives eternal life shall never perish, in John 10:28. Why don't you believe that?

You've never explained John 10:27,28 to show that salvation can be lost, or that Jesus wasn't even speaking about security.

FreeGrace2 said:

How come you've never provided any verse that says this? I'm serious. Why believe something that the Bible doesn't say?


Why do you kick against the goads? Jesus SAID those He gives eternal life shall never perish, in John 10:28. Why don't you believe that?

You've never explained John 10:27,28 to show that salvation can be lost, or that Jesus wasn't even speaking about security.

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Sure I have FG. I'm not like a friend of ours that could go on with you forever. I don't have such stamina and give up after a while.

I'd be happy to go thru it again,,,but what good would it do?

You stick to a few verses, but the bible is a whole and complete book. We need to take it all in and understand God the best we can with what He gave us.

Let's do this: I'll tell you how I understand some concepts and let's see if we could agree on something....

Do you agree with the following definitions? (mine).

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OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.


ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditional words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.


Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.

For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

GodsGrace101 said:

Sure I have FG.

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No, you've never shared any verse that says:

"Maybe works is the wrong word....
However, I DO believe that it's necessary to do these good works to stay saved..."

Not a verse in the Bible that tells how to "stay saved", and you know it.

I'm not like a friend of ours that could go on with you forever. I don't have such stamina and give up after a while.

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Just how difficult is it to cite whatever verse you thinks says how to stay saved? But you don't even do that.

I'd be happy to go thru it again,,,but what good would it do?

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It would provide an opportunity to show again that it doesn't say anything about how to stay saved.

You stick to a few verses, but the bible is a whole and complete book. We need to take it all in and understand God the best we can with what He gave us.

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This comment appears to accept the notion that there are verses that contradict other verses, so your idea is to count up those on each side, and the majority rules.

Nonsense. There are NOT ANY verses that contradict any others.

And since the "few verses" I keep sharing are SO CLEAR about eternal security, there is just NO WAY any other verse can say the opposite.

Let's do this: I'll tell you how I understand some concepts and let's see if we could agree on something....
Do you agree with the following definitions? (mine).
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.

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Actually, it is your own opinion that is not supported by the NT.

All you're showing is that in SPITE of what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, you have a real dim view of those believers who are rebellious. Your answer is "kill them, they're not worth it".

However, grace doesn't work like that. In fact, your view is totally GRACELESS.

ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

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Actually, "eternal security" and "OSAS" are identical terms. They mean the same thing. Whether you understand that or not.

There is only 1 condition for possessing eternal life. That is believing in Christ.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So don't tell me about how "few" verses I share. I've given this list many times.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

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And I keep asking; where are the verses that actually say we are secure by ANYTHING we keep doing? You have NOT shared any.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditional words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.

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Such words are always linked to things like blessings, eternal rewards, avoiding God's PAINFUL discipline.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.

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This is also in error. Jesus Himself noted the 2nd soil believed for a while and because of testing/temptation, fell away from their faith.

And Paul noted apostasy in 1 Tim 4:1. So the Calvinists are wrong.

Further proof of this error is that twice in Acts believers are encouraged to "remain true to the faith" and to "remain true to the Lord". 11:23 and 14:22.

How can it NOT occur to you that if "God keeps the elect secure and they cannot leave the faith", then such encouragement is not only unnecessary, but silly to do.

[QUOTEThis is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.[/QUOTE]
The truth is that keeps all believers saved. That is eternal security. However, election is not to salvation, but to service. I have a whole file of verses that make that very clear.

However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works.

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Well, he was quite wrong. Jesus said those who believe ARE secure, by His words, "and they shall never perish". Now, that's security.

Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?

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Yes, that's just one of their problems.

This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.

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To which I totally disagree.

Some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

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Because all three doctrines are confused and quite unbiblical.

BCsenior said:

His doesn't understand the context of his 2 verses,
even though I've explained it all to him dozens of times.

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There is NOTHING in the context of those verses that changes the very PLAIN MEANING of the words.

Those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Eternity is as secure as that.

Believe Jesus. I just point out what He said.

You guys just don't seem to perceive the gospel and it makes me very sad. All you are talking about it me, me, me, works, works, works, nothing about what Jesus has done, nothing about the cross and how he saved the worst of sinners.