If you are Israel

parousia70 said:

I too am curious... I see Copperhead's assertion that Matt 25 is an exposition of Joel 3, but I have not seen where the BIBLE TEACHES HIM THIS.

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Yeah, I've always wondered what Bible he's reading from. I suspect he'll never divulge it.

parousia70 said:

I too am curious... I see Copperhead's assertion that Matt 25 is an exposition of Joel 3, but I have not seen where the BIBLE TEACHES HIM THIS.

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No, wait, I think I know. It's the "Dispensational Imaginative Interpreters" version.

jgr said:

Jesus very frequently quoted OT Scripture in His declarations of its fulfillment.

He did not quote Joel 3 in Matthew 25.

There is no mention of "sheep" in Joel 3.
There is no mention of "goats" in Joel 3.
There is no mention of "brethren" in Joel 3.
He did, however, define "brethren" in Matthew 12:48-50.

That was the only definition that was necessary.

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No, it is not a word for word quote, but the subject is identical. In both passages the nations are gathered and judged on how they treated Israel. Yes, it says His “brethren” in Matthew, but even Paul calls the unbelieving Israelites his brethren in Romans 9. I know this might shock some, but Yeshua is of the tribe of Judah and of Jacob (Israel). The Israelites are His brethren in the flesh.

jgr said:

Yeah, I've always wondered what Bible he's reading from. I suspect he'll never divulge it.

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Doesn’t matter. The passages are pretty much identical. I use the NKJV most frequently, but will also compare that with the NASB, NIV, LITV, 1599 Geneva, and several others.

Copperhead said:

No, it is not a word for word quote, but the subject is identical. In both passages the nations are gathered and judged on how they treated Israel. Yes, it says His “brethren” in Matthew, but even Paul calls the unbelieving Israelites his brethren in Romans 9. I know this might shock some, but Yeshua is of the tribe of Judah and of Jacob (Israel). The Israelites are His brethren in the flesh.

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Hmmm. So, since the language in Joel 3:16 is identical to 2 Samuel 22:8,14 (as I pointed out) do you then contend 2 Samuel 22 is speaking of the same event as Matthew 25?

parousia70 said:

Hmmm. So, since the language in Joel 3:16 is identical to 2 Samuel 22:8,14 (as I pointed out) do you then contend 2 Samuel 22 is speaking of the same event as Matthew 25?

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Nope. At least not as it pertains to the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25. It is clear in Matthew 25:32 that the nations will be gathered to judgement, exact same thing as Joel 3:2. Both those passages talk about the nations being judged on how they treated Israel.

Copperhead said:

Nope. At least not as it pertains to the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25. It is clear in Matthew 25:32 that the nations will be gathered to judgement, exact same thing as Joel 3:2. Both those passages talk about the nations being judged on how they treated Israel.

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The OT records how Nations were Personally Judged by God time and again for many things, especially How they treated Israel. God would be seen coming down to them on the clouds with fiery vengeance, destroying the heavens and earth each time, killing with His Brightness, wielding His sword, cutting down His enemies, with His angelic armies in tow...

So, Again, since this type of Judgement upon nations by God happened MULTIPLE TIMES throughout Israels History, where does the Bible teach that Joel 3 is the same Judgement of the Nations that Matthew 25 is?

How is Joel 3 NOT about the deliverance of Jerusalem from the attempt that Sennacherib made upon it in Hezekiah’s time? Or any number of prior Judgement comings of God? As Jehoshaphat overthrew the confederate foes of Judah, namely, Ammon, Moab, &c. ( Psalms 83:6-8 ), in this valley, so God was to overthrow the Tyrians, Zidonians, Philistines, Edom, and Egypt, with a similar utter overthrow ( Joel 3:4 Joel 3:19). This has been long ago fulfilled.

parousia70 said:

The OT records how Nations were Judged time and again for many things, especially How they treated Israel. God would come down to them on the clouds with fiery vengeance, destroying the heavens and earth each time, killing with His Brightness, wielding His sword, cutting down His enemies, with His angelic armies in tow...

So, Again, since this type of Judgement upon nations by God happened MULTIPLE TIMES throughout Israels History, where does the Bible teach that Joel 3 is the same Judgement of the Nations that Matthew 25 is?

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Because they both deal with the latter days. The setting of the end times was established in Joel 2. Matthew 25 is about the end times. So easy to see if one doesn’t come at it with any preconceived ideas.

Copperhead said:

Because they both deal with the latter days. The setting of the end times was established in Joel 2.

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You mean Joel's latter days prophesy that Peter Infallibly declared was fulfilled in the 1st century? (Acts 2:16-17)

parousia70 said:

You mean Joel's latter days prophesy that Peter Infallibly declared was fulfilled in the 1st century? (Acts 2:16-17)

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Peter didn’t talk about what we are. If you can show where from Peter till now the nations of the world have been gathered to the valley of Jehoshaphat that the Mount of Olives overlooks and have been judged by Yeshua on how they treated Israel, please provide source.

Copperhead said:

Peter didn’t talk about what we are. If you can show where from Peter till now the nations of the world have been gathered to the valley of Jehoshaphat that the Mount of Olives overlooks and have been judged by Yeshua on how they treated Israel, please provide source.

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Sure.. as soon as you can show me the Historical evidence that at the time of David's Defeat of Saul, God Himself rode upon a Cherub in the clouds and Shot arrows at Saul and His armies, started fires with His nostrils, Shook the heavens, uncovered the oceans and laid the foundation of the entire earth Bare (2 Samuel 22)

Once you can Do that, I'll know we are playing on a level field.

parousia70 said:

Sure.. as soon as you can show me the Historical evidence that at the time of David's Defeat of Saul, God Himself rode upon a Cherub in the clouds and Shot arrows at Saul and His armies, started fires with His nostrils, Shook the heavens, uncovered the oceans and laid the foundation of the entire earth Bare (2 Samuel 22)

Once you can Do that, I'll know we are playing on a level field.

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Well you did a fine job pulling me along into the world of obfuscation, but it is time to cut the rope.

Copperhead said:

Well you did a fine job pulling me along into the world of obfuscation, but it is time to cut the rope.

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Trust me, I understand your reluctance to provide a level playing field with which to play this out. You’re welcome to take your ball and leave the sandbox if you don’t think the rules are fair.

You want to have your cake and eat it too, but I’m not going to be the one that let’s you dictate rules of MY engagement that you refuse to follow yourself.

I’m sure there’s plenty of other members who will let you do that. I’ll pass.