If you are Israel

Copperhead

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If you could actually identify even one of these people, you might have a case.

I don’t need to make the case. The scripture did following the Torah standard of evidence required to establish the matter.

I’ll reverse your assertion. Prove out of the entire earth’s population that there are no literal physical Hebrews. You can’t. Neither one of us can prove anything in that regard. It becomes an irrelevant argument.

I have stated repeatedly that it is not in my pay grade to worry about it. The scripture says it and it is up to the Lord to uphold His Word. Not my name on the line but His.

Then it also comes down to what it always does... trust the Lord or trust one’s own understanding and rely on man’s imagination. And that does have consequences.
 
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Justified112

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And that was pretty fancy footwork
Nope, its just putting those verses back into their original context. You ripped those verses from their context and misapplied them to an issue they were not meant to address. That's sloppy exegesis and really amounts to perverting the Word of God.



How is Christians affirming Christians ARE Jews a "projection of Hatred of Jews By Christians?"
That makes no sense...
Enrolling in USC is a terrible way to project your hatred of the USC Trojans.
Casting the Jews as the villains of the NT the way you do is hateful. The way you smear the Jews as sons of Satan and the synagogue of Satan, misusing the words of Jesus to smear an entire race of people is, well... racist.




DING DING DING!
& The Apostles were/are the Church!

Win-Win!
No, the apostles are not "the Church." The Bible doesn't define the Church that way.
 
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Justified112

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Because you claim the Church is not Israel... so I am asking you to demonstrate when these 3000 Israelite Church members STOPPED being Israel? Because, as you claim, if they are the Church, which after believing and being baptized, they most certainly ARE, AND they are Israel, again, because they most certainly are... then what?

Are they Israel or are they the Church?
or are they BOTH?
Again, that question makes no sense because it starts from a wrong assumption. Being Jewish and being an Israelite are two different things. There were Jews from 16 different nations at that event, given it was a major pilgrimage festival. It is more accurate to say that they did not stop being Jews. And it is more accurate to say that Gentiles don't become "Jewish" when they get saved.

The name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT, and it is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile Christians or the Church as a whole.
 
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usexpat97

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Casting the Jews as the villains of the NT the way you do is hateful. The way you smear the Jews as sons of Satan and the synagogue of Satan, misusing the words of Jesus to smear an entire race of people is, well... racist

You treating a race of people as first-class citizens and preferred people of God above everyone else is highly elitist and racist. The only people here saying genetics matter at all are Copperhead and you. Get the log out of your own eye first. Even by your own admission, you have no clue who that race even is.
 
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parousia70

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I’ll reverse your assertion. Prove out of the entire earth’s population that there are no literal physical Hebrews. You can’t.

Such has never been my claim...Rather, we all are, All 7 billion of us.
 
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parousia70

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Again, that question makes no sense because it starts from a wrong assumption. Being Jewish and being an Israelite are two different things.
Then Peter sure screwed up when he addressed them as "men of Israel" didn't he?...of whom 3,000 responded to the invitation to be saved and join.

Again, When did those 3000 men of Israel who believed and were baptized cease being Israel?
Ever?
 
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jgr

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Again, that question makes no sense because it starts from a wrong assumption. Being Jewish and being an Israelite are two different things. There were Jews from 16 different nations at that event, given it was a major pilgrimage festival. It is more accurate to say that they did not stop being Jews. And it is more accurate to say that Gentiles don't become "Jewish" when they get saved.

The name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT, and it is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile Christians or the Church as a whole.

Galatians 6

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision (referring to Jews) availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision (referring to Gentiles), but a new creature (both together as one singular new creature in Christ, and thus in His Church).

16 And as many as walk according to this rule (both Jews and Gentiles together as one singular new creature in Christ, and thus in His Church), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 
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parousia70

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Casting the Jews as the villains of the NT the way you do is hateful. The way you smear the Jews as sons of Satan and the synagogue of Satan, misusing the words of Jesus to smear an entire race of people is, well... racist.

That is a serious accusation. Let's hope you can either back it up with facts, or that you will be humble enough to apologize.
Please quote where I "smeared an ENTIRE RACE of people", or apologize.

The first century Jews who rejected their Messiah were EXACTLY what Jesus said they were, and what Moses and Jesus said would happen to them as punishment, did happen, on time, as prophesied.
They were cut off from the people when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that crushed them to powder. Matthew 21:40-45

Today's "Jews" are a multi-ethnic conglomeration of peoples who are either gentile converts or descendants of gentile converts to the post Christian, man made religion of the Babylonian Talmud and have no "extra" verifiable link to the pre desolation Hebrews than do you or I.

The NEW covenant was made with the Church of Israel. There is no "church" outside of Israel. The Church of Israel dates back to Moses (Acts 7:38) and existed throughout the OT age.

The only true Israel today with any authorized covenant is the Nazarene sect, which grew from a band of Twelve into worldwide Christianity, fulfilling the promise to Abraham (Gen 12:3/Gal 3:7-9/Rom4:13-18).
 
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Copperhead

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Such has never been my claim...Rather, we all are, All 7 billion of us.

Ok. Prove it. You cannot. Not even via DNA. There is no clear Abrahamic marker that DNA analysis can prove. There is only generic regions that can be traced, but that doesn't make a Abrahamic marker.

And, if all 7 billion of us are Israel, then when did all 7 billion of us, even those that are redeemed, reject Yeshua before He ascended? And He said he would not return until all Israel acknowledges that rejection and turns to Him. That would include the redeemed by your assertion.

So then, when did the redeemed, the body of Messiah, the bride of Messiah, the ekklesia of Messiah reject Yeshua to cause Him to return to the Father especially since the body of Messiah, Bride of Messiah, ekklesia of Messiah was not officially an entity until Shavuot following His ascension?

And if the redeemed rejected Yeshua, on what basis are they redeemed and make up the body of Messiah?

It is very clear. Ephraim (northern kingdom) and Judah (southern kingdom), all 12 tribes must acknowledge their rejection of Yeshua and return to Him. And after they do, the nations will be judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.

Hosea 5:14-15 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.

Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Matthew 23:37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations
;
They have also divided up My land.

If all the world is Israel, then who are the nations that will be judged on how they treated Israel? Some group from Mars? Some folks' ideas on these things really are in the league of Alice in Wonderland.
 
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jgr

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Ok. Prove it. You cannot. Not even via DNA. There is no clear Abrahamic marker that DNA analysis can prove. There is only generic regions that can be traced, but that doesn't make a Abrahamic marker.

You should waste no time in calling up your Jewish friends and informing them that they're all liars regarding their own genetics.

But that would be the dispensational variant of the unpardonable sin.

You should in fact be rejoicing uproariously with them in the realization of what should be a dispensational dream; to wit, the literal global genetic fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham.

You obviously haven't read any of the following links, which I've posted repeatedly. But that's no surprise.

Same with the mathematics.

But I'll post them again for anyone looking for sound evidence from which to draw sound conclusions.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity
 
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keras

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There is no clear Abrahamic marker that DNA analysis can prove. There is only generic regions that can be traced, but that doesn't make a Abrahamic marker.
But there is; O head of copper!
FAITH.....One Word that says it all. We Christians are the children of Abraham by our faith. Galatians 3:7-9, 26-29, Romans 4:16, Isaiah 51:1-2, Isaiah 63:15-16
But I'll post them again for anyone looking for sound evidence from which to draw sound conclusions.
jgr, you make a good case for the ubiquity of Abrahams genes.
But you are not careful enough to discern how God has a secret, Deuteronomy 29:29, a mystery, Revelation 10:7, about who His people are, hidden among the nations.
My belief is that final make up of the true Israelites of God, will consist of a majority of people who will be shown to have a genuine, traceable line of descent from one or other of the twelve sons of Jacob.
 
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Copperhead

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You should waste no time in calling up your Jewish friends and informing them that they're all liars regarding their own genetics.

Now that is ridiculous. first you say that everyone is Hebrew. Then when I say there is no detailed Abrahamic DNA marker known yet to prove that, you then turn the tables and want me to call those who claim to the Hebrew liars. You will try to turn this into some wild Alice in Wonderland confused fantasy at every turn. I told you before and I will reiterate... it is not in my pay grade to worry about! That is the Lord's problem and I will let Him worry about it. His name is on the line, not mine.

You on the other hand prefer to believe man's imaginings instead of the promises of YHVH. So you seem to have the bigger issue to deal with than I do. But go on with what you feel is correct. In the final analysis, there is no consequences if I am wrong. But if you are, there indeed are consequences. I am fire proof on this issue.
 
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Copperhead

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You should waste no time in calling up your Jewish friends and informing them that they're all liars regarding their own genetics.

But that would be the dispensational variant of the unpardonable sin.

You should in fact be rejoicing uproariously with them in the realization of what should be a dispensational dream; to wit, the literal global genetic fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham.

You obviously haven't read any of the following links, which I've posted repeatedly. But that's no surprise.

Same with the mathematics.

But I'll post them again for anyone looking for sound evidence from which to draw sound conclusions.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Like I stated, continue on with holding tight to man's imaginings. I will stick with the clear, simple scripture of what YHVH stated. Again, If I am wrong, no big deal. If you are wrong, that has consequences. I can play this hand of poker out. I am fire proof on this issue.
 
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parousia70

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Now that is ridiculous. first you say that everyone is Hebrew. Then when I say there is no detailed Abrahamic DNA marker known yet to prove that, you then turn the tables and want me to call those who claim to the Hebrew liars.

Which is a fantastic, practical illustration of the conundrum your position creates for you and all who similarly hold it.


You will try to turn this into some wild Alice in Wonderland confused fantasy at every turn. I told you before and I will reiterate... it is not in my pay grade to worry about! That is the Lord's problem and I will let Him worry about it. His name is on the line, not mine.

Then why are you taking ANY position on the topic?

You on the other hand prefer to believe man's imaginings instead of the promises of YHVH.

Believing the Promises of YHVH mean something DIFFERENT than what you believe they mean does not equate to NOT believing in the promises... C'mom now...Don't be silly.


But go on with what you feel is correct. In the final analysis, there is no consequences if I am wrong. But if you are, there indeed are consequences. I am fire proof on this issue.

How about you Lay out a few of those consequences you think exists so we can examine if your conclusions are correct or not? Show your cards poker player.
 
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Copperhead

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How about you Lay out a few of those consequences you think exists so we can examine if your conclusions are correct or not? Show your cards poker player.

Joel 3 which is expounded upon in Matthew 25:31-46. Call.
 
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parousia70

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What do you think this will look like?

Joel 3:16
16 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Do you suppose it will look anything like this looked like when it happened before?:

2 Samuel 22:8, 14
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.

which is expounded upon in Matthew 25:31-46. Call.

Ok, the implication is, if I understand you, that those who hold the position I hold will be separated as Goats, Right?

Sorry, the text you provided implies nothing of the sort.
Either expand upon your belief to show us HOW it means what you contend or come up with something else.
You appear to be bluffing.
 
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Copperhead

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What do you think this will look like?

Joel 3:16
16 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel.

Do you suppose it will look anything like this looked like when it happened before?:

2 Samuel 22:8, 14
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.



Ok, the implication is, if I understand you, that those who hold the position I hold will be separated as Goats, Right?

Sorry, the text you provided implies nothing of the sort.
Either expand upon your belief to show us HOW it means what you contend or come up with something else.
You appear to be bluffing.

Compare this to Matthew 25.. sheep and goat judgement. Wording is clear. It is the nations being judged on how they treat Jacob (Israel)

Joel 3:1-3

“For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.

Yeshua gave the discourse on this in Matthew 25 from the very spot He will fulfill The passage in Joel.
 
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jgr

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Joel 3 which is expounded upon in Matthew 25:31-46. Call.

Jesus very frequently quoted OT Scripture in His declarations of its fulfillment.

He did not quote Joel 3 in Matthew 25.

There is no mention of "sheep" in Joel 3.
There is no mention of "goats" in Joel 3.
There is no mention of "brethren" in Joel 3.
He did, however, define "brethren" in Matthew 12:48-50.

That was the only definition that was necessary.
 
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parousia70

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Compare this to Matthew 25. Wording is clear. It is the nations being judged on how they treat Jacob (Israel)

So when Israel does something like indict Netanyahu for corruption, will they be similarly judged for treating themselves poorly?
Has it gotten so bad that Israel now hates itself?

If God Blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse Israel, what does God do when Israel curses itself like it's doing now?
 
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parousia70

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Jesus very frequently quoted OT Scripture in His declarations of its fulfillment.

He did not quote Joel 3 in Matthew 25.

There is no mention of "sheep" in Joel 3.
There is no mention of "goats" in Joel 3.
There is no mention of "brethren" in Joel 3.
He did, however, define "brethren" in Matthew 12:48-50.

That was the only definition that was necessary.


I too am curious... I see Copperhead's assertion that Matt 25 is an exposition of Joel 3, but I have not seen where the BIBLE TEACHES HIM THIS.
 
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