The amount of water from each source (rain & subsurface water) needed to flood the world

dad · Apr 3, 2019

gideon123 said:
I dont want to give people the idea that I am against' Noah. Nothing could be further from the truth. Noah was a great man of faith. I believe that he existed, and I think that some type of disastrous flood did occur. You just have to look at things from his point of view.

Let's do that then. They were on the boat for what, over a year? Can you name a flood in Texas or Europe or..anywhere, where people and animals had to be on a boat for a year!? How about any local flood in history where this happened? Ha.

trophy33 · Apr 3, 2019

dad said:
Let's do that then. They were on the boat for what, over a year?

After 150 days the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.

Noah waited some more time for a land to dry.

trophy33 · Apr 3, 2019

dad said:
Can you name a flood in Texas or Europe or..anywhere, where people and animals had to be on a boat for a year!? How about any local flood in history where this happened? Ha.

I do not know about any boat, but for example China floods in 1931 lasted for 5 months and up to 4 million people died.
1931 China floods - Wikipedia

And all this just becauses of rivers. Imagine some more catastrophic event like a combination of river floods, waters from the Mediterrian sea and 40 days of raining and the biblical flood can happen (in the area of the Middle East).

dad · Apr 3, 2019

myst33 said:
After 150 days the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.

Noah waited some more time for a land to dry.

7 + 40 + 110 + 74 + 40 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 29 + 57 = 378 Days Total
Untitled

dad · Apr 3, 2019

myst33 said:
I do not know about any boat, but for example China floods in 1931 lasted for 5 months and up to 4 million people died.
1931 China floods - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931_China_floods
So you cannot offer even one instance in all history where animals and men had to stay on a boat for a year. I see. No evidence whatsoever then, OK.

And all this just becauses of rivers. Imagine some more catastrophic event like a combination of river floods, waters from the Mediterrian sea and 40 days of raining and the biblical flood can happen (in the area of the Middle East).

No chance. You will not get water rising to cover the highest mountains. Let it rain for forty days and you will not even get the bottom rocks of a mountain covered!! Nor will all men on earth and all animals die. Etc.

let it rain a month and 10 days here and see if you cover mountains!

In the area below they get over 200 days of rain per year! (forget 40 days!)

"On average there are 232 days per year with more than 0.1 mm (0.004 in) of rainfall (precipitation) or 19.3 days with a quantity of rain, sleet, snow etc. per month."
Rainfall in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, Canada Average Precipitation and Wet Days

I still see mountain tops...do you?! Ha.

trophy33 · Apr 3, 2019

dad said:
So you cannot offer even one instance in all history where animals and men had to stay on a boat for a year. I see. No evidence whatsoever then, OK.

Does not matter, this requirement of yours is useless. People do not have time to build boats, if not warned by God before.

dad said:
No chance. You will not get water rising to cover the highest mountains. Let it rain for forty days and you will not even get the bottom rocks of a mountain covered!! Nor will all men on earth and all animals die. Etc.

What do you imagine as the "highest mountain", exactly, regarding the context of Genesis story?

This is the "Earth" (and probably also too large for them to know it all):

trophy33 · Apr 3, 2019

dad said:
No chance. You will not get water rising to cover the highest mountains. Let it rain for forty days and you will not even get the bottom rocks of a mountain covered!! Nor will all men on earth and all animals die. Etc.

Exactly, that is what we are telling you... it was local, not global. It was world-wide, not planet-wide.

Their world was quite small.

Also, you do realize that 40 is a symbolic number in the Bible, right?

SkyWriting · Apr 3, 2019

dad said:
Looking at the context in the verses, we can see it was not some little neighborhood local supposed 'whole world'.

Ge 1:26 -And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ge 6:12 - And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Ge 6:13 - And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Ge 6:17 -And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Ge 7:19 - And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Ge 9:11 - And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Ge 9:17 - And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

The bible makes it clear only the people on that ark lived.

1Pe 3:20 - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The old world does not refer to a small area.

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

"And spared not the old world…
In distinction from the present world, that now is; which was, as it were, formed anew out of that which was destroyed by the deluge. The Vulgate Latin version renders it, "the original world"; and the Ethiopic version, "the first world"; it designs the ancient inhabitants of the world, as it was from the beginning, before the flood; who, being wicked, were not spared by God, but had just punishment inflicted on them:"

2 Peter - Chapter 2 - Verse 5 - The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible on StudyLight.org

I mean do you really claim that this verse refers to some small area??
Heb 11:7 -By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

"Another theological problem arises when we come to Genesis 9:11–15. God made a promise to Noah and his descendants that “never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” In other words, God was promising never to send another event like the one Noah experienced, where we are told specifically in Genesis 7:21 that “all flesh died.”

Obviously, if the Flood of Noah were only local in extent, then because we have seen lots of local floods since the time of Noah, that have destroyed both man and animals, God has broken His promise many times over! To the contrary, this rainbow covenant God made with Noah and his descendants could only have been kept by God if the Flood were global in extent, because never since in human history has a global flood been experienced."

Was the Flood of Noah Global or Local in Extent?

No, what I'm saying is the the writers were not globe Travelers. "The Whole World" was the entire world they knew of. This did not include all of the worlds mountains. This included all the mountains that they were aware of.

Neo_Frisk · Apr 3, 2019

Christopher Andrew said:
Can everyone who is not helping the way I asked just stop commenting please? I appreciate the chit chat, like over a beer and smoke, but I'm not into online debating. I'm in Western CO if you'd like to meet up for in person discussion.

I asked for calculations or references to completed calculations of the amount of water from two sources, the rain and the subterranean flow upward, to flood the current world's surface to about 22' over the highest elevation.

Assuming the rain fell as hard as a given historical known that is recorded for any period, but for 40 straight days/nights, what would that volume be, plus the needed volume of the subterranean water to make up the difference. Thanks.

Why are you worrying about volume? You need only the height. Simply take ~8000m (approximate height of Mount Everest), add 6m (the height the highest mountains were covered to), and divide by 40 days. You get ~2.5mm/s. You can convert that into a volume or mass if you like, but these require assuming more uncertainties, like the size and shape of the Earth.

Using Google (an unreliable source, I know), the fastest rate of rainfall recorded in the US is ~0.5mm/s. So if you used this as some sort of maximum rainfall (I don't know why you would), 20% of the water would have come from the rain, and 80% from the Great Deep.

trophy33 · Apr 3, 2019

Neo_Frisk said:
Using Google (an unreliable source, I know), the fastest rate of rainfall recorded in the US is ~0.5mm/s. So if you used this as some sort of maximum rainfall (I don't know why you would), 20% of the water would have come from the rain, and 80% from the Great Deep.

Can you tell me what is the Great Deep in our modern language?

JackRT · Apr 3, 2019

dad said:
In the area below they get over 200 days of rain per year! (forget 40 days!)

"On average there are 232 days per year with more than 0.1 mm (0.004 in) of rainfall (precipitation) or 19.3 days with a quantity of rain, sleet, snow etc. per month."
Rainfall in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, Canada Average Precipitation and Wet Days

The photo above is of Lake Louise in Banff National Park in the Canadian Rockies It is one of my favourite spots in all of Canada. It saddens me that the glacier at the far end of the Lake is now almost gone. It is a long way east from Prince Rupert and has an entirely different climate. Annual precipitation in Banff is about 18 inches compared to 100 inches in Prince Rupert. Both fall far short of 6 inches per minute required for our hypothetical Flood.

miamited · Apr 3, 2019

SkyWriting said:
In scripture "The whole world" is all of humanity that was known. If you made that statement today, It might take you a couple years to do a complete survey of the global water levels.

Hi sky,

Well, I'm one who has believed that God is the author of the Scriptures. Per my understanding, there is no, "well, this is what man believed at the time." God has always known everything.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Neo_Frisk · Apr 3, 2019

myst33 said:
Can you tell me what is the Great Deep in our modern language?

I guess it's the water under the Earth.

Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

trophy33 · Apr 3, 2019

Neo_Frisk said:
I guess it's the water under the Earth.

Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Do you think that authors of Genesis had a planet in mind with waters inside or that they had more or less the ancient cosmology that the dry land is standing on the world ocean, separeated by firmanent above and by a dry land under their feet?

Neo_Frisk · Apr 3, 2019

myst33 said:
Do you think that authors of Genesis had a planet in mind with waters inside or that they had more or less the ancient cosmology that the dry land is standing on the world ocean, separeated by firmanent above and by a dry land under their feet?

Probably the latter.

samwise gamgee · Apr 3, 2019

gideon123 said:
Leonardo observed that fossilized shells existed in the mountains. Many shells, largw and small. This is only possible if the land was underwater for a very long time, so many generations of creatures (shellfish) reproduced there.

The existence of shells on mountains proves that the mountains were once underwater but proves nothing about how long. Organisms must be buried quickly so they will fossilize rather than decay and a flood often brings about such sudden burials.

dad said:
That certainly sounds like upheaval. The question is when? At creation? The flood? After the flood? Who really knows?

A close reading of the Bible shows that it happened during the flood.

KomatiiteBIF said:
The tallest mountains are in the ballpark of 30,000 feet in elevation.

The tallest mountains that exist now are about 30,000 feet tall but we know nothing about high the mountains were before the flood.

dad said:
I mean are there any honest unbelievers out there that really think the bible account of Noah was about some neighborhood flood!?

There are unbelievers out there who believe this. I don't know how honest they are.

gideon123 said:
Now consider Noah's point of view ..

1. He did not know that we live on a planet.
2. He thought that the sky was a solid ceiling.
3. He had never heard of China or Antarctica.
4. He couldnt buy a round-the-world ticket from his travel agent.
5. There was no United Nations.
6. People thought that the Earth was flat and you could fall off the edge.
7. He didnt know that the Atlantic Ocean existed.
8. There was no World Cup Soccer competition.
9. There was no global Internet. There were no power lines and no phone lines either.
10. Noah was a farmer and he didnt go far, except when he floated in the Ark. Otherwise, he never went to the Big City.

How do you know Noah believed the sky was a solid ceiling or the earth was flat? The Bible tells us nothing of what his life was like before the flood. In any case the Bible was inspired by God, who knows everything, so it doesn't matter how much the people involved knew.

gideon123 · Apr 3, 2019

How do I know that Noah believed that the sky was a solid ceiling?

Because ... its in your Bible. The words are right there. They are not in the verses about Noah. But rather these words were spoken by the early Israelites. So even the Israelites, who lived many centuries after Noah, still believed that the sky was solid. Look for the word 'vault'. A vault is a solid ceiling.

Excuse me ... but it is ironic that people come here to argue that the whole world was completely covered in water, and yet the same people are not reading their own Bibles daily.

IN response to the engineer who observed that life cannot be created by purely eandom processes .. yes, I agree with you. And many biologists also understand this argument has validity. It is not wrong. There must be processes in the Universe that establish Order, and this order does create Life out of complexity. We still do not understand all these things. So if you were to say to me ... this Order is really the Hand Of God then I would agree with you 100%. But this argument does not disprove Evolution. What is the definition of Evolution? Simply this ... 'Changes in the genome over time'. That's it - thats the definition. Of course genomes are mutating. changing, and evolving ... we see it happen constantly.

So there is no point in saying ... 'Evolution Is Disproved". God himself established the ability of genomes to adapt, so that we could survive in a changing world. If you are argue against evolution then you are arguing against natural processes that were created by God and approved by God.

Blessings!

miamited · Apr 3, 2019

SkyWriting said:
In scripture "The whole world" is all of humanity that was known. If you made that statement today, It might take you a couple years to do a complete survey of the global water levels.

Hi sky,

That's always going to depend on who one believes to be the author of the Scriptures.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Job 33:6 · Apr 3, 2019

samwise gamgee said:
The existence of shells on mountains proves that the mountains were once underwater but proves nothing about how long. Organisms must be buried quickly so they will fossilize rather than decay and a flood often brings about such sudden burials.

A close reading of the Bible shows that it happened during the flood.

The tallest mountains that exist now are about 30,000 feet tall but we know nothing about high the mountains were before the flood.

There are unbelievers out there who believe this. I don't know how honest they are.

How do you know Noah believed the sky was a solid ceiling or the earth was flat? The Bible tells us nothing of what his life was like before the flood. In any case the Bible was inspired by God, who knows everything, so it doesn't matter how much the people involved knew.

Well we have to assume some height of mountains in order to respond to the question.

miamited · Apr 3, 2019

HI myst,

You responded:

myst33 said:
This is the "Earth" (and probably also too large for them to know it all):

You can't, with any truth or honesty, tell any of us what the earth was like 4,000 years ago.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The amount of water from each source (rain & subsurface water) needed to flood the world

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