Are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works?

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The soul is immaterial, in contrast to the body, which is material.

There is no word for body in the Hebrew language. The soul was believed to express itself by taking a form made by it's surroundings (dust). That means while we are here, as Jesus demonstrated upon resurrection, we are expressed by dust.
But in the Kingdom a new form of expression made up of that of the Kingdom. As we once resembled Him here, we will then resemble Him there in the Kingdom.
When the dust expression dies, the spirit returns to it's source and sleeps until resurrection day. The dust does not awaken, only the spirit in the book of life at the resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, [sheol, hades, hell] whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 115: 17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There is no word for body in the Hebrew language.
So? Does that mean the material body doesn't exist?? What are you trying to get at?

The soul was believed to express itself by taking a form made by it's surroundings (dust). That means while we are here, as Jesus demonstrated upon resurrection, we are expressed by dust.
Re-read Gen 2 again. God formed man from the dust of the ground. It doesn't matter what "was believed". What does matter is what the Bible says.

But in the Kingdom a new form of expression made up of that of the Kingdom.
Read your own sentence. How does it make any sense?

As we once resembled Him here, we will then resemble Him there in the Kingdom.
"there" in the kingdom. Where is "there"?

When the dust expression dies, the spirit returns to it's source and sleeps until resurrection day.
As I thought, you believe in "soul sleep". Except the Bible presents a much different picture.

Jesus shared a story of a rich man and a poor man names Lazarus, both of whom died and went to hades. The rich man went to "torments" and the poor man went to "Abraham's bosom", where Abraham was.

Both men were quite conscious. Luke 16 has the story. Those who claim this is just a parable fail to understand that Jesus never named actual names, much less someone of high position, like Abraham. So don't bore me with that attempt of twisting the truth.

In Rev 6:9-11 we read about those who died for Christ:
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

So, please explain how a sleeping soul can "call out in a loud voice", or be "given a white robe", or "told to wait a little longer"?

The dust does not awaken, only the spirit in the book of life at the resurrection.
The ONLY TIME dust is mentioned in relation to man is in Gen 2, where God formed Adam from the dust of the ground. After that, men are described as "flesh", not dust.

Ecclesiastes 9:
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, [sheol, hades, hell] whither thou goest.
What does this verse mean to you?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Sure. After physical death, the body decomposes and returns to dust.

But consider what Paul says about after death:
2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
v.8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Psalm 115: 17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
NIV v.17-18
17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence;
18 it is we who extol the LORD, both now and forevermore. Praise the LORD.

Do you notice the comparison here? The subject is who praises the Lord. Not that the "dead do not praise the Lord".

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
I see no relevance in this verse with the discussion.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
If you read the passage carefully, it says "the dead shall be raised incorruptible". It doesn't say "the dead shall wake up".

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
The chapter comes from Job's lips, not the Lord's. He's giving his opinion.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
It should be obvious, given the verses and passages I just shared, that the command to "awake and sing" for those who dwell in dust is a reference to the resurrection of the body.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
What you are unwilling to consider, will never get you past the point you are.
Everything I asked was explained and with scripture. You want to understand the OT you go to Jewish literature and beliefs. They made it. They explain it.

v.8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

After the resurrection in the Kingdom

18 it is we who extol the LORD, both now and forevermore. Praise the LORD.

Alive now and in the Kingdom

I see no relevance in this verse with the discussion.

Refers to the Kingdom where we take on a new form relevant to our new surroundings.

It should be obvious, given the verses and passages I just shared, that the command to "awake and sing" for those who dwell in dust is a reference to the resurrection of the body.

Obviously, when the dead awaken at judgement day the resurrection.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What you are unwilling to consider, will never get you past the point you are.
Everything I asked was explained and with scripture.
The best I can figure from your rather vague posts is that you consider "the Kingdom" to be after the resurrection. In the meantime, all who have died previously are sleeping somewhere. Nonsense.

You want to understand the OT you go to Jewish literature and beliefs. They made it. They explain it.
Wrong. God wrote the whole OT. Yes, He used human writers, just as He did for the NT, but the Word of God is God's Word, if you missed that point.

I quoted 2 Cor 5:8 and you responded:
After the resurrection in the Kingdom
That's just your opinion. Where is your evidence?

Alive now and in the Kingdom
I gave you a number of verses that PROVE that those who have physically died are STILL ALIVE in their souls, and conscious. Soul sleep is a false doctrine that 7th Day Adventists believe. Are you one of them?

2 Cor 5:8 is extremely clear.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Paul is noting that we are either in the body (physically alive) or present with the Lord (physically dead).
 
Upvote 0

Petros2015

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2016
5,088
4,321
52
undisclosed Bunker
✟287,661.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How do you reconcile the book of Romans and the Book of James?

If your destination was an island, would you get to your destination by having a boat alone or by having a boat and following directions to the island?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
In the meantime, all who have died previously are sleeping somewhere. Nonsense.

Even though the scriptures I posted backed that idea of an awakening at the resurrection for judgement. For living man that could be eons, for the unknowing dead it is but a twinkling of the eye in time.

Wrong. God wrote the whole OT. Yes, He used human writers, just as He did for the NT, but the Word of God is God's Word, if you missed that point.

Of course the Word of God is the Word of God, but one must look at the OT in context with the people of the time. Their comprehension is not ours. Theirs is to be looked at first.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Even though the scriptures I posted backed that idea of an awakening at the resurrection for judgement.
No, even though I posted verses that prove that those who have died are NOW conscious.

As to the "awakening at the resurrection", that refers to the resurrection of the physical BODY. Not the soul.

You have not provided any verse that speaks of any soul sleeping after physical death.

Of course the Word of God is the Word of God, but one must look at the OT in context with the people of the time. Their comprehension is not ours.
I don't care what their "comprehension" is. I care about what God's Word says.

Many Jews in the OT were confused by the presentation of Messiah as a "suffering servant" and as "reigning King". Therefore, many thought there were 2 Messiahs.

So much for their "comprehension".

Theirs is to be looked at first.
Only Scripture is to be looked at.

btw, since your focus is on how the OT thought, where is the evidence for soul sleep among them? iow, where did they get that idea?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I don't care what their "comprehension" is. I care about what God's Word says.

Was just stating what the religious leaders would have taught concerning the body for which there is no word in the Hebrew language. This would have existed in Moses time and before just as the Hebrew language did. No word for body means they understood a different concept of what we call body. We're the ones who changed that, not them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"You have not provided any verse that speaks of any soul sleeping after physical death."
Then why would they need to awaken
Didn't you read my post? I explained what "awakens" refers to. Go back and read what I wrote.

This is one reason these forums don't really work. Posters who don't bother reading the posts of others that they don't agree with. Yet, responding to their posts anyway.

One more time: what verses speak of the soul sleeping after physical death?

If you can't provide any, then there is no reason to believe that they do.

I do not entertain myself with speculation.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Was just stating what the religious leaders would have taught concerning the body for which there is no word in the Hebrew language. This would have existed in Moses time and before just as the Hebrew language did. No word for body means they understood a different concept of what we call body. We're the ones who changed that, not them.
I recommend you search bible hub.com for 1 Kings 13:22 and following. You'll find "body" throughout the chapter.

The Hebrew word is "nebelah", Strong's # 5038. This is how the NASB translates the word:
NASB Translation
body (11), carcass (10), carcasses (11), corpse (2), corpses (3), dead bodies (3), dead body (2), died a natural death (1), dies (1), natural death (1), what died (1), which dies (3).
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Yes, and why would a physical body of a different world be needed in the new world? There is a reason scripture says 'transformed'.
Your questions are perplexing. Do you understand what Scripture means when it speaks of our being transformed?

And why did you ignore post #532? There IS a Hebrew word for "body". A dead body

However, in Ex 30:32 we find:
basar: flesh
Original Word: בָּשָׂר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: basar
Phonetic Spelling: (baw-sawr')
Definition: flesh

NASB Translation
anyone* (1), bodies (2), body (39), fatter* (1), flesh (176), gaunt* (3), lustful* (1), man (1), mankind (3), mankind* (1), meat (34), men (1), person (1).

So, there's a Hebrew word for a dead body, and a living body.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"Actually, to have a resurrection BODY like His in His kingdom."
Not like the ones we have here. What would be the purpose?
OK. Did you read what I posted? I've included it again in this post.

Of course a resurrection body that will be LIKE HIS will NOT be "like the ones we have here". Why in the world would you even make that statement?

Or, to parrot your last question, "what would be the purpose"?
 
Upvote 0

DaveM

Active Member
Nov 26, 2016
340
196
57
nc
✟71,927.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
good works is evidence you are saved. when you are saved you become a differnt person, one who want to obey God and do his will not yours thus the good works, but by no means ever could we work our way into salvation as we are not good enough while we are int he flesh
 
  • Agree
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums