When do the last days end?

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DavidPT

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How do you reconcile that belief with this passage?:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Not much room there for any 3.5 or 7 year tribulation, 1000 year millennium or the like, is there?

Unless you don't take 2 Peter 3:10 Literally?

One thing I agree with you about, the day of the Lord does not involve the GT. The day of the Lord can't be before or during the GT. It has to be after. The GT doesn't come like a thief in the night. The day of the Lord does though.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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parousia70

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In what way presently is anyone having power over nations? What does that look like if this is supposed to apply to the here and now?

Well, Jesus Christ presently Has all power in heaven and in earth, Right?
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.

Or is there some power you believe the Nations have over and above Jesus today?
 
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parousia70

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LittleLambofJesus

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The harlot of Babylon and the Book of Revelation by Scott Hahn ::
I agree with this 100% with 1st century Jerusalem in Revelation. :oldthumbsup: :amen:
Notice the OC Jewish Rulers Jesus condemned to "hell"...

Matthew 23:33

`Serpents! brood of vipers!
how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the gehenna?

I had heard some people proclaim this person suffering in a flame as the Pope in this covenantle parable in Luke 16.
However, a lot of commentators say it is symbolizing the OC Mosaic Jews, of which I agree with;

www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am pained in this flame
.' "'

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.
They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
====================================
Some threads I have on the Gehenna, Lake of Fire and 1st century Jerusalem.

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread
 
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pasifika

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And the people, during that time, continue to be born, require food and shelter, grow up, get married, procreate, grow old and die, right? (Isaiah 65:17-23)
Hello, yes the people will have all those things according to Isaiah 65:17-23 But they don't grow old and die these people Have everlasting life which means their sins have been cleansed, they have new bodies with a new Spirit. The reason why death is occurs because of SIN (death came through sin.. Romans 5:12)
 
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DavidPT

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I agree with this 100% with 1st century Jerusalem in Revelation. :oldthumbsup: :amen:
Notice the OC Jewish Rulers Jesus condemned to "hell"...

Matthew 23:33

`Serpents! brood of vipers!
how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the gehenna?

I had heard some people proclaim this person suffering in a flame as the Pope in this covenantle parable in Luke 16.
However, a lot of commentators say it is symbolizing the OC Mosaic Jews, of which I agree with;

www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am pained in this flame
.' "'

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.
They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
====================================
Some threads I have on the Gehenna, Lake of Fire and 1st century Jerusalem.

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread


The book of Revelation mainly has to do with prophecy. Prophecy predicts future events, not past events. My point being, since no one can prove one way or the other when the prophecies in Revelation were initially given to John, but if in reality it turns out that John was given these visions post 70 AD, this would indicate John was prophesying about past events already fulfilled. Which of course is not reasonable. Prophecies typically warn people in advance pertaining to things that are to occur in the future. If anything in Revelation involved 70 AD, but that John saw these visions post 70 AD, that just isn't going to work. I'm not claiming the Revelation visions were given to John after 70 AD, I just don't know. But if in reality they were, this pretty much debunks any 70 AD interpretation of Revelation.
 
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DavidPT

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Well, Jesus Christ presently Has all power in heaven and in earth, Right?
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.

Or is there some power you believe the Nations have over and above Jesus today?


And when He returns, why would He not still have this same power over the nations? And if He does, unless one thinks Christ will destroy all nations when He returns, as if they had never existed, He could still just as easily give this power over the nations to the overcomers once He has returned.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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One more point in Matthew 24:37-40 Jesus spoke of His coming as like the days of Noah. Only Noah and his family survive but the rest were ALL taken away..So you have two groups (1) saved (both dead in Christ and the one remains (2) taKen away to destroy. There is No saved and unsaved living side by side at that time Only the RIGHTEOUS will be with their King that will be for the Millenium
He didn’t say that after he comes it will be like the days of Moah after the flood.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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A close examination of Acts 2:15-17 and Joel 2:28-32 shows that Joel's prophecy has a dual purpose. The first part of each is satisfied by Pentecost. The second part is yet to be finished.

It's important to not conflate last days with the Day of the Lord. According to my Bible commentaries, the last days began with Pentecost, basically referencing the Church Age. The Day of the Lord references the beginning of the tribulation, some time after the rapture, which then encompasses the Great Tribulation.

So, by inference, I believe the last days end with the rapture of the church; which is before the millennium.
You have a problem with the above and that is Peter says the prophesy of Joel was fulfilled at that time.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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The book of Revelation mainly has to do with prophecy. Prophecy predicts future events, not past events. My point being, since no one can prove one way or the other when the prophecies in Revelation were initially given to John, but if in reality it turns out that John was given these visions post 70 AD, this would indicate John was prophesying about past events already fulfilled. Which of course is not reasonable. Prophecies typically warn people in advance pertaining to things that are to occur in the future. If anything in Revelation involved 70 AD, but that John saw these visions post 70 AD, that just isn't going to work. I'm not claiming the Revelation visions were given to John after 70 AD, I just don't know. But if in reality they were, this pretty much debunks any 70 AD interpretation of Revelation.
He received them before the destruction of Jerusalem since Jerusalem is still standing in the prophesy. It was prophesy for them. It’s history for us.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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He didn't speak to them in English either.
Your point?
We cannot say he used a Greek word where it is not possible as an argument.

Let's look at that in the Greek:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
G4930 συντέλεια (synteleia) occurs 6 times in 6 verses
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
G4931 συντελέω (synteleō) occurs 7 times in 7 verse

165. aion
from the same as 104; properly,
an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
G165 αἰών (aiōn), occurs 128 times in 102 verses
If you have to use an extension to make your theology fit, you’re stretching it. It was the end of the age. And in fact, the age ended.
==========================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy parousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-finish<sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age<165>?'

Mat 13
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<sun-teleo <4931>.

39 “The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the full end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the full end of this age.
49 “So it will be at the full end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
Why do you have to change to a totally different chapter to make your point?
Mat 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the full end of the age?”
If you insist, the Jewish age fully ended.
Mat 28:20
“teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the full end of the age.” Amen.
Heb 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world;
but now, once at the full end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
===============================
.
As I said the full end of the Jewish age happened. Peter days the prophesy of Joel WAS fulfilled. They were in the last days of that age. They needed the warnings, not us.
 
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DavidPT

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He received them before the destruction of Jerusalem since Jerusalem is still standing in the prophesy. It was prophesy for them. It’s history for us.


I fail to see your point because even today Jerusalem is once again standing. Therefore it could just as easily apply to Jerusalem today. There's also another possibility, Jerusalem isn't even meaning in the literal sense in Revelation where we see it still standing. And if that is the case, that, too, would debunk a 70 AD interpretation of the book of Revelation.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I fail to see your point because even today Jerusalem is once again standing. Therefore it could just as easily apply to Jerusalem today. There's also another possibility, Jerusalem isn't even meaning in the literal sense in Revelation where we see it still standing. And if that is the case, that, too, would debunk a 70 AD interpretation of the book of Revelation.
Those living there didn’t pierce him. Never heard those living there are ready to flee when armies surround them. Never heard Jerusalem described today as a harlot or Babylon.

The descriptions of ad 70 fit the prophesy very accurately. And the words of John would have been meaningless to millions of Christians for millennia as Jerusalem laid plowed under. Jesus himself told of the fall of Jerusalem in Matt 24. Or you waiting for the temple to be rebuilt so no stone will be (again) left on another?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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A close examination of Acts 2:15-17 and Joel 2:28-32 shows that Joel's prophecy has a dual purpose. The first part of each is satisfied by Pentecost. The second part is yet to be finished.

It's important to not conflate last days with the Day of the Lord. According to my Bible commentaries, the last days began with Pentecost, basically referencing the Church Age. The Day of the Lord references the beginning of the tribulation, some time after the rapture, which then encompasses the Great Tribulation.

So, by inference, I believe the last days end with the rapture of the church; which is before the millennium.
I believe the last days were before the destruction of Jerusalem destroyed also by fire as described. The day of vengeance of God on those who crucified Jesus from which the murdered blood of Abel to Zechariah was required as Jesus says it would. He said he would see his coming (in wrath) and they did.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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pasifika said:
One more point in Matthew 24:37-40 Jesus spoke of His coming as like the days of Noah. Only Noah and his family survive but the rest were ALL taken away..So you have two groups (1) saved (both dead in Christ and the one remains (2) taKen away to destroy. There is No saved and unsaved living side by side at that time Only the RIGHTEOUS will be with their King that will be for the Millenium
He didn’t say that after he comes it will be like the days of Moah after the flood.
Days of Noah..flood...repent!
[Please visit my Harmonized Olivet Discourse thread]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:37-39 "days of Noah"

Matthew 24:
37 For even as the days of the Noah,
thus also shall be being the parousia of the Son of the Man
38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking and marrying an giving in marriage until of which day Noah entered into the Ark.
39 And not they know until came the flood came and takes away <142> all.
Thus shall be being the parousia of the Son of the Man

Luke 17:
26 And according as it became in the days of Noah
thus it shall be also in the days of the Son of the Man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they gave out in marriage,
until which day Noah entered into the Ark and came the flood and destroys<622> all.
=====================================
Revelation 9:5
And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion whenever it should be striking a man

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


...............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70:
its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.
Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
==============================
Genesis 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

==============================
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Dan 9:26

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 11:22
“With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of a covenant.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus only uses the word "parousia" in 1 chapter of the Gospels.....Matthew 24:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Mount of Olives and Titus


Matthew 24:
3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy parousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-finish<sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27
for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west,
thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away.
Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell to us! when these shall be being?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21:7
They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming?
=====================================

2 Thessalonians 2:
1 - And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the parousiaV <3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto Him,
8 - and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of His parousiaV <3952>,
2 Peter 3:4
and saying, 'Where is the promise of His parousiaV <3952>?
for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'
James 5
7 Be patient then brethren, till the parousiaV <3952> of the Lord;
behold the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
James 5
be ye patient! and stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758)
;
=====================

.
Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus didn’t speak to them in Greek. He didn’t use a Greek word at all.
He didn't speak to them in English either.
Your point?
Let's look at that in the Greek:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
G4930 συντέλεια (synteleia) occurs 6 times in 6 verses
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
G4931 συντελέω (synteleō) occurs 7 times in 7 verse

165. aion
from the same as 104; properly,
an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
G165 αἰών (aiōn), occurs 128 times in 102 verses
==========================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy parousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-finish<sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age<165>?'

Mat 13
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<sun-teleo <4931>.

39 “The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the full end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the full end of this age.
49 “So it will be at the full end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
Mat 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the full end of the age?”
Mat 28:20
“teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the full end of the age.” Amen.
Heb 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world;
but now, once at the full end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
===============================
.
We cannot say he used a Greek word where it is not possible as an argument.

If you have to use an extension to make your theology fit, you’re stretching it. It was the end of the age. And in fact, the age ended. Why do you have to change to a totally different chapter to make your point? If you insist, the Jewish age fully ended. As I said the full end of the Jewish age happened. Peter days the prophesy of Joel WAS fulfilled. They were in the last days of that age. They needed the warnings, not us.
My goodness D M. Stop being so condescending and arrogant........I always delve into the Greek.
BTW, I am Preterist/Amill in case you haven't noticed...........So lighten up.....

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New', He hath made old the former.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh<1451> of disappearance<854>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>

be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the parousia<3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>
========================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the time/season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the time/season is nigh<1451nigh>
 
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DavidPT

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Those living there didn’t pierce him. Never heard those living there are ready to flee when armies surround them. Never heard Jerusalem described today as a harlot or Babylon.

The descriptions of ad 70 fit the prophesy very accurately. And the words of John would have been meaningless to millions of Christians for millennia as Jerusalem laid plowed under. Jesus himself told of the fall of Jerusalem in Matt 24. Or you waiting for the temple to be rebuilt so no stone will be (again) left on another?

No, not waiting for another temple to be rebuilt. I might be Premil, and I might be one that sees the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, but I'm not one who thinks any of these things will involve literal temples in Jerusalem though.

As to the book of Revelation, for example, ch 11. I see no reason to take Jerusalem in the literal sense in that chapter. If one takes that in the literal sense, then one needs to take the 2Ws in the literal sense, and also take fire proceedeth out of their mouth, in the literal sense as well. The latter alone proves, that very little, if anything at all, in Revelation 11 should be taken in the literal sense. Especially if this is supposed to be referring to events in the first century, as some of you seem to be insisting. Since the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century was a literal event, how does one reasonably fit 2 fire breathing witnesses in with that of a literal event, such as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD? It doesn't add up. It doesn't fit reality.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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My goodness D M. Stop being so condescending........I always delve into the Greek. BTW, I am Preterist/Amill...........So lighten up.....
Stop using the ad hominem response. LIghten up. You insert different chapters to make your theology work. IN a prophesy you really ought to not mix and match but stick to the verses in the text that are there not pulling in from other places addressing other matters.
"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New', He hath made old the former.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh<1451> of disappearance<854>
At that point in time it was so. The jewish age was becoming obsolete.
1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>

be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,
That was so when Peter wrote it. That is now history.
James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the parousia<3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>
Obviously he did not mean the second coming as it did not happen. That was not nigh by any stretch of the imagination. The day of vengence was.
========================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the time/season is nigh<1451>.
IT certainly was. For the churches that book was written to, it was very important. Prophesies against particulars were also carried out. Ephesis is just a ruin today. He did what he had threatened to do.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the time/season is nigh<1451nigh>
Unlike the same thing told to Daniel who was to seal up the book. Same warning but the day was coming in their lifetimes. It was nigh. It is now over.
 
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keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
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The descriptions of ad 70 fit the prophesy very accurately
Huh?
The cosmic and earthly events prophesied for the end times, bear no relation to what happened in 70-135 AD.
You either don't know history or misread the Bible.

It is perfectly evident that we who are alive now, will see it all. We are the generation that saw the 'fig tree' bud and flourish and we will also see the rest of Isaiah 61 happen, from verse 2b to 11
Note; in Isaiah 61:6, the parallel to Revelation 5:10
 
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