My E-mail on the Eucharist

childeye 2

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I never referred to Our Lord's words as a waste of my time.

Rather, I implied that your dialectical post was a waste of my time. And, incidentally, I was correct about that.

You could've fooled me.

If you have something of substance to contribute, please do so. And skip the dialectics.
Actually I was able to attain clarity elsewhere through someone who was kind enough to listen to what I had to say, which I appreciated very much. To be clear, I never meant to imply that you counted Christ's words as a waste of time. I was indicating that I was not wasting my time or yours by seeking to understand what Jesus meant.
 
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thecolorsblend

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The early church fathers and authors I posted is exactly what they wrote and was not what I thought they had said. That is also why I included a link where there actual words could be read.

If the claim made that the early church agreed with the teaching of Real Pleasance by you, then it seems to me that the burden of proof would be on you to show those facts.
"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, 'This is my body.' The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: 'You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty' [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).
Irenaeus

"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
Irenaeus

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).
Irenaeus

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
Ignatius Of Antioch

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God.... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
Ignatius Of Antioch

An abridged version of the bit from St. Ignatius has been part of my sig for a long time now. A lot of people have other users' sigs blocked, I guess because that information might be scary or something.

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
Justin Martyr

"'Eat my flesh,' Jesus says, 'and drink my blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
Clement Of Alexandria

"There is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed, in order that the soul may be cleansed... the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands, that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).
Tertullian

"'And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table' [Prov. 9:2]... refers to his honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).
Hippolytus

"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way... now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: 'My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink' [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).
Origen

"I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence." (Homilies on Exodus 13:3 [A.D. 244])
Origen

"He [St. Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, 'Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord' [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).
Cyprian Of Carthage

There are probably others but this is what I found with a quick search.
 
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childeye 2

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I appreciate your input.

When we partake of the elements of communion today, we recognize that they are more than just symbols of something that happened a long time ago. Whenever we gather together to observe the Lord’s Supper, Christ is present with us spiritually. It is not just the memory of Him that is present; He is in the midst of the congregation. The emphasis is upon His presence within the worshiping body, not within the elements of the table. The believer communes with the Lord through the act of remembrance and worship.

First Corinthians 11:23–26:...…….
“For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, ‘This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.’ In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.”
I agree that it's more than a memory of something that happened long ago that is present. Speaking for myself, I can't separate the memory of his death from his presence when I partake because the divine Love is on display in my remembrance of his death.
 
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Major1

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I agree that it's more than a memory of something that happened long ago that is present. Speaking for myself, I can't separate the memory of his death from his presence when I partake because the divine Love is on display in my remembrance of his death.

IMO that is exactly how we worship the Lord Jesus, in Spirit and truth.

Bless you!
 
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Major1

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Thanks for that admonition, I stand corrected.

That was NOT supposed to be an admonition and I was NOT trying to correct you my brother, but since you took that way, allow me to apologize to you. I was simply sharing with you what was on my heart at that time about the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice for all of us.
 
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Major1

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Shame on me for bungling through that post. I read that line near the top too fast. By saying what you did in the part I bolded in red, you wrote yourself out of Real Presence. So that was my fault, but you were being consistent in your own beliefs.

Not a problem my friend. There is no fault to be admitted to.
 
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Major1

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I'm glad to see that you're citing your sources now. It is a most welcome change.

Unfortunately, this is one of those times when reading your source in its entirety would've shed considerable light on "your" questions.

First of all, It would be wonderful to be alive to read your words when you are my age and your memory does not work as good as it used to, to see how you act and speak.

Second, IF I lived my life and had faith in the Council of Trent, then your comment would mean something to me but alas, it does not.
 
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childeye 2

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That was NOT supposed to be an admonition and I was NOT trying to correct you my brother, but since you took that way, allow me to apologize to you. I was simply sharing with you what was on my heart at that time about the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice for all of us.
Well you were right about context and I obviously did not make myself clear so I felt grateful for your kind instruction.
 
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ChicanaRose

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So this is not a Catholic, but a non-denominational service, as you wrote. If one of your own people was misrepresenting the Catholic doctrine, I can see the reason for your email. But if the speaker is not Catholic, why did you feel that he needed to understand your Catholic view?
 
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thecolorsblend

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First of all, It would be wonderful to be alive to read your words when you are my age and your memory does not work as good as it used to, to see how you act and speak.
Ok?

Second, IF I lived my life and had faith in the Council of Trent, then your comment would mean something to me but alas, it does not.
Not sure what you're driving at, exactly. The answers you sought were in the very source you provided. That much is indisputable. So you found your own answer. But for some reason then you removed the answer.

Puzzling. It was puzzling.

Puzzling.
 
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Fidelibus

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Ok?

Not sure what you're driving at, exactly. The answers you sought were in the very source you provided. That much is indisputable. So you found your own answer. But for some reason then you removed the answer.

Puzzling. It was puzzling.

Puzzling.

Agreed, I too found the answers absence to his questions (in the very same source) puzzling, as I stated on post #13. My guess is, it would not fit in to his narrative doing so.

Have a Blessed Lenten Season.
 
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Major1

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Ok?

Not sure what you're driving at, exactly. The answers you sought were in the very source you provided. That much is indisputable. So you found your own answer. But for some reason then you removed the answer.

Puzzling. It was puzzling.

Puzzling.

If I have to explain it then it is not worth the time to do so to me.
 
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Major1

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So this is not a Catholic, but a non-denominational service, as you wrote. If one of your own people was misrepresenting the Catholic doctrine, I can see the reason for your email. But if the speaker is not Catholic, why did you feel that he needed to understand your Catholic view?

Puzzling, isn't it?
 
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tz620q

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So this is not a Catholic, but a non-denominational service, as you wrote. If one of your own people was misrepresenting the Catholic doctrine, I can see the reason for your email. But if the speaker is not Catholic, why did you feel that he needed to understand your Catholic view?
Perhaps because to a Catholic or an Orthodox or a Lutheran or an Anglican, the Eucharist is the summit of the worship service. Add those groups together and you have over 80% of all Christians. So it is baffling to us that others accept the symbolic-only view by osmosis without considering the traditional view very seriously. I have had discussions with people like this which are devout Christians that I look up to; but who dismiss my views on the Eucharist as though I was a child. Their insulated attitude is that all the Christians they know believe like they do, so that is the majority view and others are pure fantasy.
 
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Major1

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Perhaps because to a Catholic or an Orthodox or a Lutheran or an Anglican, the Eucharist is the summit of the worship service. Add those groups together and you have over 80% of all Christians. So it is baffling to us that others accept the symbolic-only view by osmosis without considering the traditional view very seriously. I have had discussions with people like this which are devout Christians that I look up to; but who dismiss my views on the Eucharist as though I was a child. Their insulated attitude is that all the Christians they know believe like they do, so that is the majority view and others are pure fantasy.

With all due respect, are you saying that the correct interpretation of the Scriptures is based on who agrees the most with each other????

Maybe you are not saying that, but it sure sounds like that to me. Are you real sure that you want to think that way???

Then to say that Catholics, and Lutheran and Anglican make up 80% of all Christians is IMO opinion a reach/exaggeration.

I have looked very quickly at some percentages and none of the ones I found and added together as you suggest pass 50% and are closer to 40 %.
 
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Philip_B

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I have looked very quickly at some percentages and none of the ones I found and added together as you suggest pass 50% and are closer to 40 %.
Chart.jpg


source: Christianity by country - Wikipedia

nb: Anglicans have been included in the Protestant group which is arguable.
 
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Albion

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I don't think the 80% figure is correct, but...

part of the problem here is that different categories of churches come up with their membership totals in different ways.

Many Protestant bodies, for example, count only formal members, excluding unbaptized children. Some of the Orthodox, at the other end of that spectrum, count all members of the respective ethnic group, whether or not they ever have been seen in church.
 
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