Gods not made. Grace and grace alone

Gods not mad

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quietbloke

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Gods not mad

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i just have to say i see it a different way. pauls way. pastors should preach grace and grace alone. the law is a mirror that shows us we need Christ not something that needs to be berated over the head of a believer. the price has been paid the work has been finished for anyone who has put their faith in the Lord Jesus. i understand pastors feel they need to constantly remind the people of sin because the thought is that in doing so people will stop sinning, but as paul said for the good i will to do i do not do, but the evil i will not to do that i practice. romans chapter 7 and 8 good stuff. matter of fact only when you are grace minded trusting fully in the Lord and none of yourself will the desire to sin diminish trust me i know. what pastors do not understand that is by preaching a mixture of law and grace they are confusing and constantly keeping the people under condemnation, while telling them Jesus loves them. very confusing indeed. no one can measure up to the law no matter how hard one tries. only Jesus has conquered the law and only He can give a man freedom from the laws requirements. if a man tries to keep the law the standard of the law is on that person and well there is no freedom in that. one will start to view our God as one who is looking to punish them constantly, and the fact that the punishment has already been paid will be a secondary thought. this is not a healthy view of our loving father and not a good place to be. when the attempt is being made by a child of God to walk in the requirements of the law you will always fail one way or another and the result is the picture above. trust me i know.

bless you brother
a former pentecostal
 
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BNR32FAN

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God is certainly not made. He made us. God is certainly not mad. He is consistently love. Pastors should not teach law without grace. We are saved 'through grace,not of works..' by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ!

Well I agree that we are saved by grace but we must also abide in Christ and bear fruit to receive salvation. Notice John 15:1-10. Also in Matthew 25:31-46. The goats were condemned because they did not bear fruit. Another example would be James 2:14-26. James mentions two types of faith. A saving faith that bears fruit and a dead end useless faith that does not bear fruit which is not a saving faith. Notice in verse 14 James says “can that faith save him?” I think many people confuse being justified by faith as meaning someone is automatically saved. If that were the case then Jesus’ message in John 15:1-10 would be meaningless. There’s no doubt that Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles had faith and yet Jesus still warned them of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. The consequences which resulted in being cut off from the vine (Christ), thrown away to wither, and thrown in the fire and burned.
 
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Gods not mad

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"Well I agree that we are saved by grace but we must also abide in Christ and bear fruit to receive salvation."

to abide in Christ is to have your faith in Him and to have experienced a new birth 2 corinthians 5:17 (therefore if any one is in Christ he is a new creation the old has passed away behold the new has come.) john 10:28-29 (i give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand my Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.) so abiding in Christ is trusting in His grace. so abiding in Him "also to receive salvation" is a confusing statement your saying the same thing twice. as for we need to "bear fruit" to also "receive salvation" i find an odd statement seeing how fruit is only produced when you abide in him by faith. so we are saved by grace then abiding in Him through faith and fruit is being produced in our lives not by works but by His living through us.

i will address john 15 the true vine at the end of this letter you will really be set free by it.

matthew 25:31-46

verse 46 (then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.) how can one be righteous but by Christ definitely not by works. see ephesians chapter 2:6-10 especially verse 8 and 9 where it says (8 for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 31-45 is dealing with the judgement of those who have put their faith in Christ and those who never did.

james 2:14-26

lets start out in verse 8 (if you really keep the royal law found in scripture, love your neighbor as yourself you are doing right. 9 but if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as law breakers. 10 for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.) this is an important piece of information directly above verses 14-26. lets just go straight to verse 24 for i feel thats the point your trying to drive home. how are we made righteous philippians 3:9 (and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.) so a person can not be made righteous by anything other than faith in Christ alone. verse 24 is talking about the fact that true faith is accompanied by works. if one truly is in Christ he will produce the works of Christ which is love towards his fellow man. if you say you have faith but i have deeds this is not true faith because faith without works is dead. these are two different scenarios being gone over here.

now john chapter 15 the true vine

verse 2 every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away and every branch that beareth fruit , he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. the words taketh away in greek translate to the word airo which means to raise, to lift up. so the way Jesus said it is every branch in me that beareth not fruit he raises up. He lifts up so that they may at some point bear fruit. wow what a grace filled loving Father God. Jesus takes those who are not bearing fruit currently probably because they are focused on trying to gain fruit by there works and He loves them and lifts them up off the ground so that they may bear fruit.verse 6 is referring to unbelievers. verse 10 is answered in verse 12 His commandment is to love one another as i have loved you.

bless you brother.
 
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BNR32FAN

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"Well I agree that we are saved by grace but we must also abide in Christ and bear fruit to receive salvation."

to abide in Christ is to have your faith in Him and to have experienced a new birth 2 corinthians 5:17 (therefore if any one is in Christ he is a new creation the old has passed away behold the new has come.) john 10:28-29 (i give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand my Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.) so abiding in Christ is trusting in His grace. so abiding in Him "also to receive salvation" is a confusing statement your saying the same thing twice. as for we need to "bear fruit" to also "receive salvation" i find an odd statement seeing how fruit is only produced when you abide in him by faith. so we are saved by grace then abiding in Him through faith and fruit is being produced in our lives not by works but by His living through us.

i will address john 15 the true vine at the end of this letter you will really be set free by it.

matthew 25:31-46

verse 46 (then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.) how can one be righteous but by Christ definitely not by works. see ephesians chapter 2:6-10 especially verse 8 and 9 where it says (8 for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 31-45 is dealing with the judgement of those who have put their faith in Christ and those who never did.

james 2:14-26

lets start out in verse 8 (if you really keep the royal law found in scripture, love your neighbor as yourself you are doing right. 9 but if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as law breakers. 10 for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.) this is an important piece of information directly above verses 14-26. lets just go straight to verse 24 for i feel thats the point your trying to drive home. how are we made righteous philippians 3:9 (and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.) so a person can not be made righteous by anything other than faith in Christ alone. verse 24 is talking about the fact that true faith is accompanied by works. if one truly is in Christ he will produce the works of Christ which is love towards his fellow man. if you say you have faith but i have deeds this is not true faith because faith without works is dead. these are two different scenarios being gone over here.

now john chapter 15 the true vine

verse 2 every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away and every branch that beareth fruit , he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. the words taketh away in greek translate to the word airo which means to raise, to lift up. so the way Jesus said it is every branch in me that beareth not fruit he raises up. He lifts up so that they may at some point bear fruit. wow what a grace filled loving Father God. Jesus takes those who are not bearing fruit currently probably because they are focused on trying to gain fruit by there works and He loves them and lifts them up off the ground so that they may bear fruit.verse 6 is referring to unbelievers. verse 10 is answered in verse 12 His commandment is to love one another as i have loved you.

bless you brother.

Bless you friend. I would kindly like to point out a few things to consider. First I would like to say that we are absolutely not saved by our works we are saved grace thru having faith in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We absolutely cannot earn our salvation. However as James stated in James 2:14 a faith that does not produce works is not a saving faith. It’s not the works that earn salvation it’s the type of faith that Jesus commands us to have. I was not referring to James 2:21-24. James is not saying we are made right with God but our works. The Greek word translated to “justified” not only mean to be rendered or made right with God but also means to be shown or evinced to be right with God. If James were saying we are made right with God by our works then he would be directly contradicting Paul in Romans 4:1-5. James is talking about showing our faith by our works as evidence of our faith. His point is that a lack of works shows evidence of a lack of faith or a faith that is not genuine.

Now concerning Matthew 25:31-46 please notice that Jesus gives the reason why the goats were condemned in verse 42 & 43.

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭25:41-43‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now looking at these I would like to go back and compare these examples of works with the examples given by James in chapter 2 when he was referring to a faith that did not produce works which is not a saving faith. Notice the similarities.

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”
‭‭JAMES‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice in both of these examples of works these are dealing with works of love and compassion for others. They show a lack of love for others. Now notice in John 15:10-13 the message Jesus gives to His 11 faithful disciples concerning bearing fruit and abiding in His love.

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These are all in connection to loving others and a lack of fruit or works as given in the examples show a lack of love. Are we saved by faith without love for others? If we say we have faith but have not love for others is that a saving faith? I believe this is the root of all three of these messages.

Now I’d like to go into John 15 in a little more detail because I believe you have the incorrect definition of the word translated to “taketh away”. Allow me to present the full definition.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away

G142


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The branch is attached to the vine because it is “in Christ” as stated in verse 2. So the correct definition concerning something that is attached to something is removed or cut off. Jesus also says “he who abides in Me will bear much fruit”. The branches that do not bear fruit are not abiding in Him and are cut off from the vine. Now notice in verse 6

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the definition of the Greek word translated to “thrown or cast”.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

cast

G906+G906


G906


Lemma:

βάλλω


Transliteration:

bállō


Pronounce:

bal'-lo


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert

So when you put this together anyone who does not bear fruit is not abiding in Christ and is cut off or removed from the vine (Christ) carelessly and without regard thrown away to wither (dry up and waste away) then carelessly and without regard thrown into the fire to be burned.

Keep in mind Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles who undoubtedly believed and had faith. Yet He feels it is necessary to warn them of the consequences of not bearing fruit and not abiding in Him which results in loss of salvation. This is what the church has always taught from the beginning and there are many early church writings to support this interpretation going all the way back to 180AD by St Iranaeus in his writing Adversus Haereses. He does not address this passage directly but does address that salvation is conditional and can be revoked as well as many others.
 
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Gods not mad

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hello friend,

the true vine

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

you are taking one statement out of the third definition when the more precise first definition says to raise up lift up. you know as well as i do the first definition is the most literal. john 6 is talking about unbelievers. ok st iranaeus in his writing adversus haereses says you can lose your salvation please show me where Christ says it.


you seem to go back and forth on your statements about grace, and it producing fruit.
"First I would like to say that we are absolutely not saved by our works we are saved grace thru having faith in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We absolutely cannot earn our salvation." and "Well I agree that we are saved by grace but we must also abide in Christ and bear fruit to receive salvation." the problem i see is the word but and also. either salvation comes from faith by His grace and grace alone or we must add to it by producing fruit by our own actions. john 15:5 .how do you see fruit? how is it produced in your own eyes. yes a christian is fruitful but only because He first loved us. when i first came to Christ i did not love Him i did not know Him but He knew me and called me. He saved me, and did i produce fruit on day one galatians 5:22-23 . no. so was i already lost of course not. matter of fact i was still in the galatians 5:19-21 realm. your logic must be taken back all the way to the moment of the new birth and in doing so does not hold water. The difference between those abiding in Christ and those not abiding in Christ is the difference between the saved and the unsaved. i notice you say His 11 faithful apostles often in referring to john 15 even know judas betrayed the lord he still was an apostle. matter of fact if we will go with Jesus was only talking to the 12 in john 15 and no one else for all of eternity then verse 6 is referring to judas john 6:64-65 and john 13:21-30 but i believe Christ words are more expansive then just the 12.

in my opinion you confuse works by your own strength and good works born out of the love the father has shown us. we love because He first loved us. in my opinion you believe you can lose your salvation by not doing good works. we only "do good" because the grace of God rests upon a believer and we have become nothing and Christ can then have full authority over one to flow Himself out as the light of the world. john 15 5 you can only abide in Christ if He holds you in the abiding for we on our own can not abide we will fail in our attempts.

you seem to be someone of importance around here one who is obviously educated and has spent time studying the word. i would like to see where you stand exactly on your walk with the Lord in the way in which you teach others. i have a few questions i would like to ask you and our answers will be observed by the holy spirit as He watches us so lets be honest. i will start off by saying i am the chief of sinners one who is completely lost without the Lord someone who literally would be in absolute moral destruction in all ways imaginable without Gods grace and His grace with nothing added to it. here are my questions for you because i know you walk in the good works of james 2 and matthew 25

when is the last time you watched inappropriate content
when is the last time you lusted after a women who was not your wife
did you have fear at all in the last 5 years
was there a time in the last 5 years you got angry with someone
when was the last time you did not appreciate Gods hand in your life
when was the last time you put something before God and made Him second
when was the last time you had a violent thought towards another even to see them dead
have you stolen time while on the job recently
have you gossiped about another in any way recently
when was the last time you were not satisfied with what God has given you
when was the last time you did not love another as Christ has loved you

now these are unfruitful acts. are you perfect in all you do. have you met the standard you have placed upon yourself and others. please answer these questions because i have never met a man able to hit this high standard perhaps you will be the first. the gospel truth is once saved always saved that is what God has offered us through His son because no man can please God by his good works not even you.

please answer these questions.
 
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BNR32FAN

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hello friend,

the true vine

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

you are taking one statement out of the third definition when the more precise first definition says to raise up lift up. you know as well as i do the first definition is the most literal. john 6 is talking about unbelievers. ok st iranaeus in his writing adversus haereses says you can lose your salvation please show me where Christ says it.


you seem to go back and forth on your statements about grace, and it producing fruit.
"First I would like to say that we are absolutely not saved by our works we are saved grace thru having faith in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We absolutely cannot earn our salvation." and "Well I agree that we are saved by grace but we must also abide in Christ and bear fruit to receive salvation." the problem i see is the word but and also. either salvation comes from faith by His grace and grace alone or we must add to it by producing fruit by our own actions. john 15:5 .how do you see fruit? how is it produced in your own eyes. yes a christian is fruitful but only because He first loved us. when i first came to Christ i did not love Him i did not know Him but He knew me and called me. He saved me, and did i produce fruit on day one galatians 5:22-23 . no. so was i already lost of course not. matter of fact i was still in the galatians 5:19-21 realm. your logic must be taken back all the way to the moment of the new birth and in doing so does not hold water. The difference between those abiding in Christ and those not abiding in Christ is the difference between the saved and the unsaved. i notice you say His 11 faithful apostles often in referring to john 15 even know judas betrayed the lord he still was an apostle. matter of fact if we will go with Jesus was only talking to the 12 in john 15 and no one else for all of eternity then verse 6 is referring to judas john 6:64-65 and john 13:21-30 but i believe Christ words are more expansive then just the 12.

in my opinion you confuse works by your own strength and good works born out of the love the father has shown us. we love because He first loved us. in my opinion you believe you can lose your salvation by not doing good works. we only "do good" because the grace of God rests upon a believer and we have become nothing and Christ can then have full authority over one to flow Himself out as the light of the world. john 15 5 you can only abide in Christ if He holds you in the abiding for we on our own can not abide we will fail in our attempts.

you seem to be someone of importance around here one who is obviously educated and has spent time studying the word. i would like to see where you stand exactly on your walk with the Lord in the way in which you teach others. i have a few questions i would like to ask you and our answers will be observed by the holy spirit as He watches us so lets be honest. i will start off by saying i am the chief of sinners one who is completely lost without the Lord someone who literally would be in absolute moral destruction in all ways imaginable without Gods grace and His grace with nothing added to it. here are my questions for you because i know you walk in the good works of james 2 and matthew 25

when is the last time you watched inappropriate content
when is the last time you lusted after a women who was not your wife
did you have fear at all in the last 5 years
was there a time in the last 5 years you got angry with someone
when was the last time you did not appreciate Gods hand in your life
when was the last time you put something before God and made Him second
when was the last time you had a violent thought towards another even to see them dead
have you stolen time while on the job recently
have you gossiped about another in any way recently
when was the last time you were not satisfied with what God has given you
when was the last time you did not love another as Christ has loved you

now these are unfruitful acts. are you perfect in all you do. have you met the standard you have placed upon yourself and others. please answer these questions because i have never met a man able to hit this high standard perhaps you will be the first. the gospel truth is once saved always saved that is what God has offered us through His son because no man can please God by his good works not even you.

please answer these questions.

Now that I’ve finally seen the post you were referring I can reply to it. First of all my understanding of John 15 is supported by the earliest church teachings. You know, the very churches the apostles themselves established. The church also stood behind and still do stand behind St Iranaeus’ writings because their teachings have been the same since the church was established. I’ve shown you the correct definition of the word when it’s used in reference to something that is attached to something. Protestant translators don’t like that translation because it refutes their doctrines so they choose the incorrect definition in order to fit their beliefs. Unfortunately for them there’s not a single early church writing to support Protestant doctrines. In fact the early church writings refute Protestant doctrines. The sad thing is Protestants believe that the very churches established by the apostles by the commandment of God Himself were all wrong. In fact all of Christianity was wrong until 1500AD when Martin Luther came along with a new teaching that is not supported ever by any other Christian church since the very beginning. Did the apostles fail to do the job Jesus Himself picked them for? Did Jesus plan to spread the gospel fail until 1500 years later when Martin Luther came along?
 
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