James, the step brother of the Lord

Der Alte · Apr 1, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
No where does it say half. This is just one example.
Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

There was a synagogue full of worshipers and Matthew, who recorded what they said, who believed that Mary had four other sons younger Jesus named, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. They called them Jesus' brothers. And as I have shown above "adelphos," the Greek word translated brother, does not mean "cousin" or other close relative.

☦Marius☦ · Apr 1, 2019

Der Alter said:
There was a synagogue full of worshipers and Matthew, who recorded what they said, who believed that Mary had four other sons younger Jesus named, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. They called them Jesus' brothers. And as I have shown above "adelphos," the Greek word translated brother, does not mean "cousin" or other close relative.

Actually you didn't read all your own source apparently:
Epict. 1, 12, 20 ἀδ. beside γονεῖς, τέκνα, γείτονες; 1, 22, 10; 4, 1, 111; Artem. 3, 31; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 6; Diog. L. 7, 108; 120; 10, 18. In PMich 214, 12 [296 A.D.] οἱ ἀδελφοί σου seems to be even more general=‘your relatives’). Hence there is no doubt that in Lk 21:16 ἀδελφοί=brothers and sisters, but there is some room for uncertainty in the case of the ἀδελφοί of Jesus in Mt 12:46f; Mk 3:31; J 2:12; 7:3, 5; Ac 1:14.

Luke 21:16 has nothing to do with Christ's brothers btw

Der Alte · Apr 1, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
begin

<Ma>Actually you didn't read all your own source apparently:
Epict. 1, 12, 20 ἀδ. beside γονεῖς, τέκνα, γείτονες; 1, 22, 10; 4, 1, 111; Artem. 3, 31; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 6; Diog. L. 7, 108; 120; 10, 18. In PMich 214, 12 [296 A.D.] οἱ ἀδελφοί σου seems to be even more general=‘your relatives’). Hence there is no doubt that in Lk 21:16 ἀδελφοί=brothers and sisters, but there is some room for uncertainty in the case of the ἀδελφοί of Jesus in Mt 12:46f; Mk 3:31; J 2:12; 7:3, 5; Ac 1:14.
Luke 21:16 has nothing to do with Christ's brothers btw[/QUOTE]
What is your point about Luke 21:16? Or do you even have one? Of course it does not refer to Jesus' brothers. Jesus is telling others that their "adelphon," brothers and "sunnegenes," the word for "cousins" and other close relatives will betray them.
.....As for me not reading my own source. You didn't read my source. Like a lot of folks you skimmed through it to find some little bit to quote out of context.
Right up near the top, section (1)

(1) Of Jesus’ brothers (passages like Gen 13:8; 14:14; 24:48; 29:12; Lev 10:4; 1 Ch 9:6 do not establish the mng. ‘cousin’ for ἀ.; they only show that in rendering the Hebr. אָח ἀ. is used loosely in isolated cases to designate masc. relatives of various degrees.

Now let us examine your little snippet.

Epict. 1, 12, 20 ἀδ. beside γονεῖς, τέκνα, γείτονες; 1, 22, 10; 4, 1, 111; Artem. 3, 31; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 6; Diog. L. 7, 108; 120; 10, 18. In PMich 214, 12 [296 A.D.] οἱ ἀδελφοί σου seems to be even more general=‘your relatives’). Hence there is no doubt that in Lk 21:16 ἀδελφοί=brothers and sisters, but there is some room for uncertainty in the case of the ἀδελφοί of Jesus in Mt 12:46f; Mk 3:31; J 2:12; 7:3, 5; Ac 1:14

☦Marius☦ · Apr 1, 2019

Der Alter said:
<Ma>Actually you didn't read all your own source apparently:
Epict. 1, 12, 20 ἀδ. beside γονεῖς, τέκνα, γείτονες; 1, 22, 10; 4, 1, 111; Artem. 3, 31; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 6; Diog. L. 7, 108; 120; 10, 18. In PMich 214, 12 [296 A.D.] οἱ ἀδελφοί σου seems to be even more general=‘your relatives’). Hence there is no doubt that in Lk 21:16 ἀδελφοί=brothers and sisters, but there is some room for uncertainty in the case of the ἀδελφοί of Jesus in Mt 12:46f; Mk 3:31; J 2:12; 7:3, 5; Ac 1:14.
Luke 21:16 has nothing to do with Christ's brothers btw

What is your point about Luke 21:16? Or do you even have one? Of course it does not refer to Jesus' brothers. Jesus is telling others that their "adelphon," brothers and "sunnegenes," the word for "cousins" and other close relatives will betray them.
.....As for me not reading my own source. You didn't read my source. Like a lot of folks you skimmed through it to find some little bit to quote out of context.
Right up near the top, section (1)

(1) Of Jesus’ brothers (passages like Gen 13:8; 14:14; 24:48; 29:12; Lev 10:4; 1 Ch 9:6 do not establish the mng. ‘cousin’ for ἀ.; they only show that in rendering the Hebr. אָח ἀ. is used loosely in isolated cases to designate masc. relatives of various degrees.

Now let us examine your little snippet.

Epict. 1, 12, 20 ἀδ. beside γονεῖς, τέκνα, γείτονες; 1, 22, 10; 4, 1, 111; Artem. 3, 31; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 6; Diog. L. 7, 108; 120; 10, 18. In PMich 214, 12 [296 A.D.] οἱ ἀδελφοί σου seems to be even more general=‘your relatives’). Hence there is no doubt that in Lk 21:16 ἀδελφοί=brothers and sisters, but there is some room for uncertainty in the case of the ἀδελφοί of Jesus in Mt 12:46f; Mk 3:31; J 2:12; 7:3, 5; Ac 1:14

[/QUOTE]

No I read the whole thing. You aren't paying attention to the verses it is referencing.

Notice the part you keep pointing to in the first definition that says the word was not used to say "cousins"; notice the verse references. They are in the Old Testament and not related to Christ's family,

whereas the part he says are uncertain, are verses from the New Testament.

Anto9us · Apr 1, 2019

Gal 2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

prodromos · Apr 1, 2019

Der Alter said:
There was a synagogue full of worshipers and Matthew, who recorded what they said, who believed that Mary had four other sons younger Jesus named, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. They called them Jesus' brothers. And as I have shown above "adelphos," the Greek word translated brother, does not mean "cousin" or other close relative.

Where does Matthew claim they are sons of Mary or that they are younger than Jesus? They certainly don't act like they grew up in the shadow of Jesus, who was the perfect man and would have had a major influence on them as the eldest.

[edit] corrected autocorrect

Daniel Martinovich · Apr 1, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
There is only one Catholic Institution. The one with Christ at head and no men.

True to a point. But there is no institution. Only people, because......he can only save and empower people. Can't save and institution and can't empower it becasue there is no guarantee that those in charge of the institution will have his interests in mind. Or, for that matter even have the faith that saves.

Anto9us · Apr 1, 2019

The INFLUENCE of James is great, enough to reverse Peter's behavior at Antioch (of eating with Gentiles, as he was doing before the James Gang arrived, and even Barnabus is affected.) A close family relationship of James with Jesus could help explain this INFLUENCE, this LEADERSHIP of James -- who was NOT a disciple -- and possibly not even a believer early on.

Christianity was MOVING FORWARD (towards a fuller acceptance of Gentiles) and the influence of James drives it BACKWARD at this point. Whether James is a full brother or half brother, I think a family relationship with Jesus is partly responsible for this leadership and influence of a non-disciple -- which seems to be on the side of the Judaizers, whom Paul struggles against in his ministry.

James seems a foil against Paul at times. Adding qualifications about Gentile behavior in Acts 15, spooking Peter and Barnabus out of eating with Gentiles at Antioch, and could James have been behind influencing even Paul to do a "vow" at the Temple with four other men -- the Temple whose veil had been rent at the crucifixion?

In James' epistle, "works" seems to be cast in the teeth of Paul's other writings of grace/faith and not works as that which by we are saved.

I will not argue against BAGD (which I do not have) and I'll set aside the 'cousin' bit; I feel James was either a real brother or a half-brother -- but there are incidents which paint ole Camel Knees as not really gettin' with the program of Paul as far as Gentiles go:

Negative point about James the Just:

0. with other brothers, thinks Jesus is off His rocker early in ministry and tries to shut Him up
1. adds qualifications to Gentile behavior at ACTS 15 council
2. upsets (by the mere arrival of his agents) what was working for everybody else at Antioch about Jews and Gentiles eating together
3. possibly persuaded Paul to do this vow/ceremony at a Temple where the veil had already been rent
4. writes of WORKS as if to make a counterpoint to Paul's letters

Der Alte · Apr 1, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
.Notice the part you keep pointing to in the first definition that says the word was not used to say "cousins"; notice the verse references. They are in the Old Testament and not related to Christ's family,
whereas the part he says are uncertain, are verses from the New Testament.

Uncertain means the verses do not prove either way. They do not prove that adelphoi means cousins or brothers. So this statement in the definition does not refute my argument or support yours.

Der Alte · Apr 1, 2019

Anto9us said:
The INFLUENCE of James is great, enough to reverse Peter's behavior at Antioch (of eating with Gentiles, as he was doing before the James Gang arrived, and even Barnabus is affected.) A close family relationship of James with Jesus could help explain this INFLUENCE, this LEADERSHIP of James -- who was NOT a disciple -- and possibly not even a believer early on.
Christianity was MOVING FORWARD (towards a fuller acceptance of Gentiles) and the influence of James drives it BACKWARD at this point. Whether James is a full brother or half brother, I think a family relationship with Jesus is partly responsible for this leadership and influence of a non-disciple -- which seems to be on the side of the Judaizers, whom Paul struggles against in his ministry.
James seems a foil against Paul at times. Adding qualifications about Gentile behavior in Acts 15, spooking Peter and Barnabus out of eating with Gentiles at Antioch, and could James have been behind influencing even Paul to do a "vow" at the Temple with four other men -- the Temple whose veil had been rent at the crucifixion?
In James' epistle, "works" seems to be cast in the teeth of Paul's other writings of grace/faith and not works as that which by we are saved.
I will not argue against BAGD (which I do not have) and I'll set aside the 'cousin' bit; I feel James was either a real brother or a half-brother -- but there are incidents which paint ole Camel Knees as not really gettin' with the program of Paul as far as Gentiles go:
Negative point about James the Just:
0. with other brothers, thinks Jesus is off His rocker early in ministry and tries to shut Him up
1. adds qualifications to Gentile behavior at ACTS 15 council
2. upsets (by the mere arrival of his agents) what was working for everybody else at Antioch about Jews and Gentiles eating together
3. possibly persuaded Paul to do this vow/ceremony at a Temple where the veil had already been rent
4. writes of WORKS as if to make a counterpoint to Paul's letters

There is an earlier edition of BAGD online which can be consulted, but not downloaded, at this link.
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

Anto9us · Apr 1, 2019

Thanks, D A !

☦Marius☦ · Apr 1, 2019

Der Alter said:
Uncertain means the verses do not prove either way. They do not prove that adelphoi means cousins or brothers. So this statement in the definition does not refute my argument or support yours.

Exactly.

I never said there was proof they were his cousins, only that it was possible. It doesn't back up your argument either however.

Der Alte · Apr 1, 2019

prodromos said:
Where does Matthew claim they are sons of Mary or that they are younger than Jesus? They certainly don't act like they grey up in the shadow of Jesus, who was the perfect man and would have had a major influence on them as the eldest.

Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?
Logic shows that those in the synagogue meant that the four brothers were the sons of Mary. Since Jesus was Mary's first born, the four brothers would have to be younger than Jesus. If the Jews in the synagogue had meant "cousins" they would have used the specific word for "cousin", i.e. "sungennes" cf. Luke 1:15 and Luke 21:16.
But you evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with Mary remained a virgin.

Anto9us · Apr 1, 2019

I won't go so far as Luther and say that James is "an epistle of straw"
but -- in James' own words -- the letter is not for me anyhow:

Jas 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

☦Marius☦ · Apr 1, 2019

Der Alter said:
Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?
Logic shows that those in the synagogue meant that the four brothers were the sons of Mary. Since Jesus was Mary's first born, the four brothers would have to be younger than Jesus. If the Jews in the synagogue had meant "cousins" they would have used the specific word for "cousin", i.e. "sungennes" cf. Luke 1:15 and Luke 21;16.
But you evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with Mary remained a virgin.

"logic shows"
Only if you are predisposed to your particular accepted beliefs.

☦Marius☦ · Apr 1, 2019

Der Alter said:
Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?
Logic shows that those in the synagogue meant that the four brothers were the sons of Mary. Since Jesus was Mary's first born, the four brothers would have to be younger than Jesus. If the Jews in the synagogue had meant "cousins" they would have used the specific word for "cousin", i.e. "sungennes" cf. Luke 1:15 and Luke 21:16.
But you evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with Mary remained a virgin.

Why do neither of the translations of those verses you gave not use the word cousin then? Luke 1:15 doesn't even talk about family (other than mother).

prodromos · Apr 2, 2019

Der Alter said:
Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

I asked a question and gave part of the reason I was asking. How is that arguing?

Logic shows that those in the synagogue meant that the four brothers were the sons of Mary.

How did you use logic to arrive at that conclusion? Please show the steps. I suspect rather that you have assumed Mary is their mother, and that would naturally make them His younger brothers, or you have assumed that they were younger, which would naturally make Mary their mother, but you can't arrive at both with just logic. You have to make an assumption first.

Since Jesus was Mary's first born, the four brothers would have to be younger than Jesus.

Only if sons of Mary.

If the Jews in the synagogue had meant "cousins" they would have used the specific word for "cousin", i.e. "sungennes" cf. Luke 1:15 and Luke 21:16.

I've never claimed they were anything other than Jesus' brothers, just not sons of Mary.

You have evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with Mary remained a virgin.

Ad hominems are indicative of weak arguments. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I've explained why I have found the traditional view to be more consistent with Scripture than the post-reformation view.

lesliedellow · Apr 2, 2019

Because the Catholic and Orthodox churches slipped in the word "half" centuries later. There is no reason whatsoever for thinking the gospel writers accidentally left it out.

Der Alte · Apr 2, 2019

prodromos said:
I asked a question and gave part of the reason I was asking. How is that arguing?
How did you use logic to arrive at that conclusion? Please show the steps.

7 versions, not one translates "adelphos" as cousin. Perhaps you know of a version which does?

KJV Galatians 1:19
(19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
NIrV Galatians 1:19
(19) I didn't see any of the other apostles. I only saw James, the Lord's brother.
NIV Galatians 1:19
(19) I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
ASV Galatians 1:19
(19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
ESV Galatians 1:19
(19) But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
ISV Galatians 1:19
(19) But I did not see any other apostle except James, the Lord's brother.
NET Galatians1:19
(19) But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.

The Greek word "adelphos" occurs 104 times in the NT. I cannot find one single instant where it can be conclusively shown that adelphos means "cousin" vice "brother." But I can find several occurrences where it can be shown to mean brother.

Mat 4:21
(21) Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them,
Mat 22:24
(24) Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat 22:25
(25) Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
Mar 6:17-18
(17) For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
(18) For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.
Mar 12:19
(19) Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Luk 12:13
(13) And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
Luk 15:27
(27) And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
Joh 11:2
(2) (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)

I suspect rather that you have assumed Mary is their mother, and that would naturally make them His younger brothers, or you have assumed that they were younger, which would naturally make Mary their mother, but you can't arrive at both with just logic. You have to make an assumption first.

See above.

Only if sons of Mary.
I've never claimed they were anything other than Jesus' brothers, just not sons of Mary.

Perhaps you can explain to me how James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, Matt 22:25, can be Jesus' brothers but not sons of Mary? You assume that one of Mary's sisters or brothers had 4 sons, that they lived close to Mary and would accompany her to where Jesus was and that Mary's neighbors would know that they were cousins of Jesus. That's a lot of assumptions with zero evidence.

Ad hominems are indicative of weak arguments. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I've explained why I have found the traditional view to be more consistent with Scripture than the post-reformation view.

I've heard that before but repeating an old adage does not make it true.

Der Alte · Apr 2, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
"logic shows"
Only if you are predisposed to your particular accepted beliefs.

C.f. my response to Prodromos, above. Then of course there is the definition of "adelphos" I posted, previously in this thread, which does NOT list "cousin" as a definition of "adelphos." Do you know of any scholastic evidence which proves otherwise? Perhaps you are the one that is "predisposed to your particular beliefs." I seem to be the only one providing scholarly evidence.

James, the step brother of the Lord

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