The pre-tribulation rapture

usexpat97 said:

Not really. Again: I never said I contested whether those in Christ were ever appointed to wrath. They aren't. But that does not necessitate Christians not being on the planet at all. Have you ever witnessed a car accident? You were still there on the scene.

Click to expand...

No, you are not interpreting it correctly.

Revelation says,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10).

We are told that we will be kept from the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try them that DWELL UPON THE EARTH.

This means there will be a Rapture because we will not dwell upon the Earth during the hour of temptation. Only those who dwell on the Earth will face this hour of temptation.

I don't know--we have an entire section on Christianforums dedicated exclusively to this discussion. Threads have been moved involuntarily back-and-forth from Eschatology, and many of those were gray-area. This one is by no means gray area: the OP subject line very prominently says, "pre-tribulation rapture". Yet for some reason this one stays. I really don't get it.

Jason0047 said:

We are told that we will be kept from the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try them that DWELL UPON THE EARTH.

Click to expand...

That time of trial is found below, when Christ is the judge as found in John 5:27-30.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

.

BABerean2 said:

That time of trial is found below.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

.

Click to expand...

It says the hour of temptation (trial). This would include the time of when men are tried or tempted to take the mark of the beast, and they will be tested, and or tempted by evil things in the Great Tribulation. Men will also be tested by the Wrath of God so as to get them to repent. The day of wrath or the "Day of the Lord" starts at the sixth seal. This begins the great tribulation. The hour of trial that comes upon the whole world.

Jason0047 said:

The day of wrath or the "Day of the Lord" starts at the sixth seal. This begins the great tribulation.

Click to expand...

The event described below is the Second Coming of Christ.

Rev 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

The signs in the sun, moon, and stars above are also found in the Olivet Discourse, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;


Many of the characters found in verse 15 above are the same characters found later in the book, at Armageddon.

Rev 19:18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."

Why would they be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at this point in time.

Because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

.

BABerean2 said:

The event described below is the Second Coming of Christ.

Rev 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

The signs in the sun, moon, and stars above are also found in the Olivet Discourse, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;


Many of the characters found in verse 15 above are the same characters found later in the book, at Armageddon.

Rev 19:18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."

Why would they be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at this point in time.

Because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

.

Click to expand...

No. The Day of the Lord is a period of time (that spans over several months/years), and it is not a 24 hour day.

At the breaking of the 6th seal, Jesus is just sitting on his throne and he is not returning within that day yet.

The Day of the Lord = The Day of Wrath (According to the Scripture below).

For Zephaniah 1:14-15 says,

"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,"

Joel says that the sun will be darkened and the moon shall be turned to blood on the "Day of the Lord."

For Joel 2:31 says,

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

And the Day of Wrath is marked by the sun going dark, and a blood moon.

Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:

Revelation 6:14-17 says,

"And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Yet, the breaking of the seventh seal with all it's trumpet and bowl judgment has not happened yet.

So the "Day of the Lord" is a period or time.

Even Peter talks about how the world will be destroyed by fire in the "Day of the Lord."

So the "Day of the Lord" is not a 24 hour period but it is period of time over several months or years.


For 2 Peter 3:10-12 says

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ...all these things shall be dissolved, .... wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

Jason0047 said:

No. The Day of the Lord is a period of time (that spans over several months/years), and it is not a 24 hour day.

At the breaking of the 6th seal, Jesus is just sitting on his throne and he is not returning within that day yet.

The Day of the Lord = The Day of Wrath (According to the Scripture below).

For Zephaniah 1:14-15 says,

"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,"

Joel says that the sun will be darkened and the moon shall be turned to blood on the "Day of the Lord."

For Joel 2:31 says,

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

And the Day of Wrath is marked by the sun going dark, and a blood moon.

Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:

Revelation 6:14-17 says,

"And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Yet, the breaking of the seventh seal with all it's trumpet and bowl judgment has not happened yet.

So the "Day of the Lord" is a period or time.

Even Peter talks about how the world will be destroyed by fire in the "Day of the Lord."

So the "Day of the Lord" is not a 24 hour period but it is period of time over several months or years.


For 2 Peter 3:10-12 says

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ...all these things shall be dissolved, .... wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

Click to expand...

Why have you have ignored the normal meaning of the word "day" to make the pretrib doctrine work?
Should we look with suspicion on any doctrine that changes the meaning of words?

What if a repairman told you he was coming to repair the heater for your house in a day, and he showed up 3 years later?

Why are you claiming that the wicked on earth are hiding from Christ who is still in heaven, at the end of Revelation chapter 6?

Why are you ignoring the fact that the Second Coming signs found in Revelation chapter 6 and the Olivet Discourse are the same?

Why are you ignoring that many of the same characters are found in chapter 6 and at Armageddon?

Why are you trying to ignore the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


.

HTacianas said:

Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

Click to expand...

They get if from inference because it's not in the Scriptures.

BABerean2 said:

Why have you have ignored the normal meaning of the word "day" to make the pretrib doctrine work?
Should we look with suspicion on any doctrine that changes the meaning of words?

What if a repairman told you he was coming to repair the heater for your house in a day, and he showed up 3 years later?

Why are you claiming that the wicked on earth are hiding from Christ who is still in heaven, at the end of Revelation chapter 6?

Why are you ignoring the fact that the Second Coming signs found in Revelation chapter 6 and the Olivet Discourse are the same?

Why are you ignoring that many of the same characters are found in chapter 6 and at Armageddon?

Why are you trying to ignore the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


.

Click to expand...

The Bible says that a thoussand years is like a day to the Lord.

Also, there are several instances where "day" does not mean a 24 hour period in the Bible.

The Greek word "hēmera" has been translated as "day" (singular) or as "days" (plural).

The word "day" in Genesis 8:22 is used in reference to human history.

To learn more on the word "day" check out this article on the word "day" at Bible Study Tools.

Day Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Side Note:

Please take no offense, but it is really hard to read bolded fonts in color for an entire post. If it is to highlight a particular verse, that is one thing, but to bold the entire post makes it difficult to read your posts. It is not necessary to bold and use a color font. But you are free to do as your wish, of course. Personally, I would write in a way so that everyone would want to read my posts. But that is just me.

In any event, may God bless you.

BABerean2 said:

Why have you have ignored the normal meaning of the word "day" to make the pretrib doctrine work?
Should we look with suspicion on any doctrine that changes the meaning of words?

What if a repairman told you he was coming to repair the heater for your house in a day, and he showed up 3 years later?

Why are you claiming that the wicked on earth are hiding from Christ who is still in heaven, at the end of Revelation chapter 6?

Why are you ignoring the fact that the Second Coming signs found in Revelation chapter 6 and the Olivet Discourse are the same?

Why are you ignoring that many of the same characters are found in chapter 6 and at Armageddon?

Why are you trying to ignore the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


.

Click to expand...

There are instances that the expression “Day of the Lord” and its variants do not refer to the eschatological judgment; instead, they refer to a near judgment, such as the judgment on Jerusalem from the Babylonians. For example, Ezekiel 13:5 contains the expression “Day of the Lord”; yet, this is in the context of the captivity of Judah. And we know that the Babylonian invasion on Judah and Jerusalem lasted much longer than a mere twenty-four hour day. Another example is a variant of the “Day of the Lord” that is found in Lamentations 2:21-22: “the day of your anger” and “the day of the LORD’s anger.” Again, this is in the context of the Babylonian invasion and captivity of Jerusalem; yet, the singular “day” was clearly understood by the prophet to figuratively refer to an epoch–not a mere literal twenty-four hour day.

In Isaiah 34:8, “day” is paralleled with “year,” connoting a figurative effect, indicating a period of time is in view: “For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion” (Isa. 34:8 ESV; cf. Isa. 61:2). “Day” and “year” are not to be taken literally–they are poetic.

Source used:
The Day of the Lord is Not a Literal 24 Hour Day

Jason0047 said:

"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,"

Click to expand...

Indeed. Throughout scripture, the "day of the Lord" is code phraseology for the end time. And if one does a thorough study of "day of the Lord" occurrences, they will come across passages that show the righteous are gathered and hidden from that day..... before it begins.

Isaiah 26 is loaded with great information along this line. It starts out with "in that day" which is a reference to "day of the Lord" also. In verse 2, the passage is talking about opening the gates to let the righteous enter in. In Hebrew eschatology, the has always been associated with the gates of heaven. Later in verse 17, it talks about the time of the birth pains, which is commonly associated with the Day of Trouble or Tribulation period in other places like Jeremiah 30:5-7. Back to Isaiah 26, the big finale is the latter part of the chapter and is clear as it gets.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

The timing is BEFORE the day of the Lord, because is says "the Lord is about to come out from His place". And it sounds almost like Paul wrote it when you compare it to....

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And Isaiah 26:20 corresponds with John 14:1-3.

John 14:1-3 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

There are many, many more passages that talk along these same lines. The point being that a removal of the righteous and their not being involved in the calamities that are covering the entire earth is layered all throughout scripture. Even King David talked about it, again, referencing the "day of trouble" which Jeremiah 30 talks about.

Psalms 27:4-5 One thing I have asked from the Lord, that I shall seek:
That I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life,
To behold the beauty of the Lord
And to meditate in His temple.
5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

Jason0047 said:

In any event, may God bless you.

Click to expand...

Can you deal with the rest of my last post?

........................................................


Why are you claiming that the wicked on earth are hiding from Christ who is still in heaven, at the end of Revelation chapter 6?

Why are you ignoring the fact that the Second Coming signs found in Revelation chapter 6 and the Olivet Discourse are the same?

Why are you ignoring that many of the same characters are found in chapter 6 and at Armageddon?

Why are you trying to ignore the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?

.

Copperhead said:

Indeed. Throughout scripture, the "day of the Lord" is code phraseology for the end time. And if one does a thorough study of "day of the Lord" occurrences, they will come across passages that show the righteous are gathered and hidden from that day..... before it begins.

Click to expand...

Not "before it begins" based on Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, where he describes the event at the end of chapter 4 and provides the timing of the event in chapter 5.
Remember there were no chapters or verses in the text when Paul wrote it.

At the beginning of chapter 5 Paul says the event occurs on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
The same language occurs in Revelation 16:15-16 at Armageddon, which is clearly a Second Coming event.


1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.


Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.



The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

If you ignore those passages, you may be able to get some to believe the pretrib doctrine.

.

BABerean2 said:

Can you deal with the rest of my last post?

Click to expand...

Why does this conversation have to be all one sided?
We were talking about how a "day" does not always mean a 24 hour period within the Bible.

You said:

Why are you claiming that the wicked on earth are hiding from Christ who is still in heaven, at the end of Revelation chapter 6?

Why are you ignoring the fact that the Second Coming signs found in Revelation chapter 6 and the Olivet Discourse are the same?

Why are you ignoring that many of the same characters are found in chapter 6 and at Armageddon?

Why are you trying to ignore the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?

.

Click to expand...

You are piecing together pieces of the jig saw puzzle that do not exactly match. They may be similar (in a loose way), but they are not an exact match in fitting the situation at hand. Things have to come together in a very precise kind of way. You are jumbling things together and it makes for a very confusing Chronology of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, and other miscellaneous verses.

Let me ask you. Have you ever made a chronology on the End Times before?

When I did so in the past, I was constantly re-arranging my list to make sure that it lined up with what Scripture was saying. I can say that this is still a continual process. We have to pray, and ask God for guidance continually on this. We have to get passed our assumptions and keep looking at the text and be honest with ourselves. Just because something sounds similar does not mean it is the same thing always.

Yes, we can agree that the "Day of the Lord" are marked by the beginning of signs such as: The sun going dark, a blood moon, and black skies.

Where we depart is the other events involved as told to us by Scripture.

I see the Bible as saying:


In your view of the Post Trib Rapture, it has to ignore several key things in Scripture.

#1. Imminency. Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour. We are told that He will come in an hour that we think not.
#2. For the elect's sake, those days (the tribulation days) shall be shortened.
#3. The catching up mentioned by Paul is a new mystery revealed. So this means that no previous OT verse has ever mentioned it before. So it is new.
#4. The church is not appointed unto Wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
#5. Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 mentions nowhere that believers are being gathered up into Heaven from the Earth; Only the Olivet discourse is saying that.
#6. You have Christ returning at the 6th seal (Which presents a problem). Yet, following the 6th seal, we see many subsequent trumpet and bowl judgments (with Christ's return being suggestive within the 6th bowl or 6th vial judgment). However, in order for your view to work, you either have to have all the trumpet and bowl judgments crammed into a 24 hour period or you have them tacked on later after Christ returns (Which makes for a very confusing End Times Chronology).
#7. Wrath beginning at 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), and and Revelation 15:1 tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God/
#8. The problem with your chronology is that it is not in line with the timeline given to us in Scripture.

The daily sacrifice is clearly stopped at the midpoint of The Tribulation according to Daniel (Which makes sense in light of the Antichrist taking control over the Jewish temple).

A Snap-Shot of an End Times Chronology:

1. The Pre-Trib Rapture.
2. 1st Seal.
3. 2nd Seal.
4. 3rd Seal.

5. The Abomination of Desolations:
(Midpoint of the Tribulation):



6. A Select Group of Jews Flee to the Mountains:
(Which can also be referred to as "the wilderness" within the Scriptures):



7. 4th Seal: = Death.


8. The Mid Tribulation Gathering:
(Note: Revelation 19 is not written in chronological order; It is disjointed series of visions that are trying to make a spiritual point or message for us today; So the "Marriage call" (Matthew 25:10), and the "Call to invite more after a return from the wedding" (Luke 12:36) does not have to happen in the short span of time shortly before Christ's 2nd Coming within Revelation 19 but it happens over a period of years in our time prior.).



9. Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.


10. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the angels call to battle from those in Heaven and in the air (and not upon the Earth) (Note: This is the 6th bowl judgment or 6th vial judgment).



Note: Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 makes no mention of the gathering up of believers from the Earth (Which is where we would expect to find such a truth) because these chapters deal with Christ's 2nd Coming.

It is important to notice that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not sound like the same event in the Mid-Tribulation Gathering up by angels (See Post #154 and compare the Mid Trib Gathering verses with the Rapture verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15).

For the Bible distinguishes between the call to marriage (Matthew 25:10), and the call to invite more from Christ's return from the wedding (Luke 12:36).

I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, and a Mid Trib Gathering Up.

I used to believe in a Post Gathering Up of Believers (along with the Pre-Trib Rapture), but a Post Trib Gathering Up is not consistent for many reasons. A Post Trib Gathering Up does not work because of:

#1. Imminency. Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour. We are told that He will come in an hour that we think not.
#2. The elect's sake, those days (the tribulation days) shall be shortened.
#3. The catching up mentioned by Paul is a new mystery revealed. So this means that no previous OT verse has ever mentioned it before. So it is new.
#4. The church is not appointed unto Wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
#5. Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 mentions nowhere that believers are being gathered up into Heaven from the Earth; Only the Olivet discourse is saying that.
#6. The fact that many Post Tribulationists have Christ returning at the 6th seal (Which presents a problem). Yet, following the 6th seal, we see many subsequent trumpet and bowl judgments (with Christ's return being suggestive within the 6th bowl or 6th vial judgment). However, in order for their view to work, their either have to have all the trumpet and bowl judgments crammed into a 24 hour period or they have them tacked on later after Christ returns (Which makes for a very confusing End Times Chronology).
#7. The fact that the beginning of Wrath starts with the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), and and in Revelation 15:1 it ends the Wrath. For Revelation 15:1 tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.
#8. The problem with the Post Tribulation chronology is that it is not in line with the timeline given to us in Scripture.

Daniel 11:31 NIV says,
His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice.

Daniel 12:11 NLT and Daniel 12:11 NLT say,
From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped... there will be 1,290 days.

Revelation 11:2 NLT
The nations ... will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Daniel 9:27 says,
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The only strength I see in the Post Trib Gathering Up is that the characters are the same (i.e. Kings, etc. from Revelation 6), and the Wedding and the Wedding feast are mentioned in the same chapter (at Christ's return). But if this is so, then we have a contradiction in many other verses in Scripture. So the Word of God has to be harmonized.

To me pre-tribulation and post-tribulation make no difference. I would die for Jesus anyway. If we get swooped up great, but if not then so what? God hasn't abandoned you still... We can overcome anything by faith in him. So I don't know why this is such a popular debate.

DM25 said:

To me pre-tribulation and post-tribulation make no difference. I would die for Jesus anyway. If we get swooped up great, but if not then so what? God hasn't abandoned you still... We can overcome anything by faith in him. So I don't know why this is such a popular debate.

Click to expand...

Denying the Pre-Trib Rapture is a sure bet that one will go through the Tribulation because of unbelief. If one believes in the Rapture, then one will be taken up with God.

Jason0047 said:

Denying the Pre-Trib Rapture is a sure bet that one will go through the Tribulation because of unbelief. If one believes in the Rapture, then one will be taken up with God.

Click to expand...

I don't think so... He raptures all believers. He doesn't only rapture people who believe in the rapture.

DM25 said:

I don't think so... He raptures all believers. He doesn't only rapture people who believe in the rapture.

Click to expand...

What verse says that?

Anyways, the Bible says otherwise.

42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
(Matthew 24:42-44).

48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51).

Those who say that the Lord will come in a time they think He is returning (Especially a Post Trib Gathering) is suggesting that the Lord is delaying His coming and He is not returning at an hour they think not. Meaning, they are not expecting His imminent return. The passage warns against this position.