What are "Human Rights" and where do they come from?

Dave Ellis

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Read my answer again, maybe you'll comprehend it.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

I don't know if you think you're being clever by evading my question, however you are violating what is taught in your bible.

So I ask again, why do you put your faith in your god as an ultimate moral authority, and how do you what is purported to be said by him is true?
 
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TasteForTruth

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Lets go with the definition of the word:

Just: Based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

So, by definition fairness, equality, etc is a key part of something being just. If something is not fair, then by definition it is not just.

And again, in many cases fairness and equality are objective measurements. If we both start off as equal as you could imagine, and for no particular reason I am granted $1,000,000 by the government whereas you are granted nothing, then that discrepancy would need to justified. If it can't be justified, then it is unjust. The fair thing to do would be to grant us equal amounts of money, may that be $500,000 each, or $0.

But, that's not up to subjectivity. That's an objective measurement of dollars and cents. A huge amount of unfair treatment in out society is financially based.

Likewise, if black people are given on average sentences that at 5x longer than white people for the same crime, that is also an objective measurement.

That's not to say there aren't some "grey areas" where subjectivity may come into play, I'm sure there will be. Those are the areas where trial and error come in handy, and hopefully we will learn through experience what works best, then implement those things.
Thank you. So, it really does seem that, in your view, "just" is a subjective thing, just as is what is legal, or what rights a person has. So to summarize, you believe that:
  • all rights held by human beings are created by government (social consensus), affording them no inherent claim on them;
  • infringement of a right cannot be illegal if society so determines
  • infringement of a right cannot be unjust if society so determines
Is that an accurate summary?
 
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TasteForTruth

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It doesn't take omnipotence or a foundational perfect goodness for a ruling body to derive a system of fairness.

Of course people are imperfect. What is perfection anyway, other than an unacheiveable goal.
Instead we must seek a decent system, and then look to make it better, and then look to improve on that, and then seek out the chinks and flaws and address those, and then find the rough edges and look to polish them up. I hope you get the idea.
We don't just throw our arms up in the air and give up.
We find something that is better than nothing, and that is our starting point then we iteratively improve on that.

If you have two children of the same age, the same wants and needs, do you hug one and yell at the other? Do you always let one of them choose the meal, toys, channel and never let the other one choose? Do you decide based on the shade of pigmentation of their skin, which one should get your loving attention and which one should not?

You do not need a god to tell you whether to treat your kids with equal kindness, equal love. All you need to do is think, and empathise. If you can't do those two things then perhaps you will struggle to be a parent and struggle to be a leader. If you need a god to tell you how to behave then perhaps you have not yet reached the level of maturity, self sufficiency or independence of thought that typically comes with being an adult.

If you are still struggling to understand from where do mature adults get their ideas of fairness, of kindness, of being able to make decisions then either you are reaching for reasons to believe a god is necessary for guiding humanity, or you are showing your colours that you personally can't think about what is good and how to behave nice without having a "father" figure telling you what to do and how to think.

Free will is not about doing as you are told. It is about living, experiencing and making difficult choices. It is about growing up and being humble enough to be retrospective and introspective, about being smart enough to consider the consequences of your choices. About being strong enough to forgive yourself for mistakes rather than being paralysed by your fear of making mistakes.

There is a distinct difference between the following two statements:
- I treat others the way I would like to be treated because that is the type of society I would like to promote and live in.
- I treat others well because I believe god wants me to behave that way.

One statement is that of a wise and responsible understanding adult, the other is childlike, doing what they are told but not understanding why. One approach is a journey of learning and progression, the other is of stagnation and obedience.
These paths are mutually exclusive.
Which path would you want your children to follow?
I'm not sure you understand what is going on here. I have been probing the position of Dave Ellis. So it's not really a case of me trying to understand justice, etc., but to understand how he understands those things, relative to human rights.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Apparently I need to spell this out for you.

Faith is not absolute knowledge, it is trust.

So you just randomly decide to place your trust in anything that happens to pop up?

I'm asking for reasons why, and you still haven't provided any. The fact you have faith in the idea that god is the ultimate moral authority and what is said by him is true is irrelevant. That's simply telling me what you believe.

Why you believe it is what's important, and you seem to lack any reason for placing your faith in this god. You can only state over and over again that you put your faith in god, without any explanation on how you reached your conclusion to do so.
 
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stevil

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I'm not sure you understand what is going on here. I have been probing the position of Dave Ellis. So it's not really a case of me trying to understand justice, etc., but to understand how he understands those things, relative to human rights.
OK, sure, sorry for wading into a private conversation.

I was interested in the topic and wanted to have a say in a more generalised way (of how an atheist can justify stuff without an absolute point of objective reference) rather than a pinpoint of Dave's opinion. I obviously can't speak for Dave.
 
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TasteForTruth

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OK, sure, sorry for wading into a private conversation.

I was interested in the topic and wanted to have a say in a more generalised way (of how an atheist can justify stuff without an absolute point of objective reference) rather than a pinpoint of Dave's opinion. I obviously can't speak for Dave.
It's certainly a public conversation. I just didn't know how else to respond, since we'd covered a lot of ground. I'll re-read your post and we can pick it up there, too.
 
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stevil

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It's certainly a public conversation. I just didn't know how else to respond, since we'd covered a lot of ground. I'll re-read your post and we can pick it up there, too.
That's fine, I don't want to take you backwards or slow you down.
 
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Sure there is, going from a blank slate it's not that hard to create a legal system that treats everyone the same under the law.

No one is actually a blank slate.

So what type of society would you rather construct? One where people are not treated equally under the law?

No, that wouldn't be the case at all. You are just throwing out the jargon that appeals to your position to dismiss people that don't buy into hard egalitarianism.

But what you mean by "treated equally by the law" most often means constructing whole new series of laws to "protect" people from the free choices that other people make. Instead of getting 'equal rights' people end up getting super rights.

Moreover, it is important to understand that in many societies there are distinctions between citizens and their obligations, which is fine. For instance, Iran has special obligations for Muslims, and has differing obligations for non-Muslims. I do not specifically endorse the Iranian system to be used for non-Iranians, but I understand its existence and accept it.
 
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stevil

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But what you mean by "treated equally by the law" most often means constructing whole new series of laws to "protect" people from the free choices that other people make. Instead of getting 'equal rights' people end up getting super rights.

What would be an example of this?

Moreover, it is important to understand that in many societies there are distinctions between citizens and their obligations, which is fine. For instance, Iran has special obligations for Muslims, and has differing obligations for non-Muslims. I do not specifically endorse the Iranian system to be used for non-Iranians, but I understand its existence and accept it.
It's not really a government's place to enforce religious rules for members of a religion, or rules of other private exclusive organisations on their own members.
So I personally disagree with this.

However, we have an example in NZ (and perhaps in other countries) where there were an indigenous peoples and they weren't conquered, instead they signed a treaty which included special protections and provisions for descendants of those peoples. Therefore, even now, there are special rules giving those indigenous peoples increased "rights" over others. This isn't an attempt on "treated equally by the law" so this scenario doesn't apply to the first section of this post.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Not at all. You really don't understand the concept at all, nor do you seem capable of doing so.

You haven't made an attempt to explain it, apart from saying you placed your faith in god.

When asked to explain your position, you refuse to do so with some rather arrogant sounding hand-waving.

Do you think this makes you look impressive, or your position tenable? I think everyone on here, including the Christians can see the fact that you are refusing to back up your viewpoint, and making yourself look like a petulant child while doing so.

So, I ask again, why do you think god is an ultimate moral authority, and what reason do you have to believe what he has to say is true?
 
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Dave Ellis

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No one is actually a blank slate.

I didn't mean a person, I was referring to creating a society from a blank slate.

No, that wouldn't be the case at all. You are just throwing out the jargon that appeals to your position to dismiss people that don't buy into hard egalitarianism.

But what you mean by "treated equally by the law" most often means constructing whole new series of laws to "protect" people from the free choices that other people make. Instead of getting 'equal rights' people end up getting super rights.
Can you give an example?

Moreover, it is important to understand that in many societies there are distinctions between citizens and their obligations, which is fine. For instance, Iran has special obligations for Muslims, and has differing obligations for non-Muslims. I do not specifically endorse the Iranian system to be used for non-Iranians, but I understand its existence and accept it.

And I think something like that is rather silly. Sure, people should be free to practice their religion, however the government should stay out of it as much as possible. I can't think of a scenario where the government would start obligating or mandating things on a religious basis that would lead to a greater good.
 
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Strathos

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You haven't made an attempt to explain it, apart from saying you placed your faith in god.

When asked to explain your position, you refuse to do so with some rather arrogant sounding hand-waving.

Do you think this makes you look impressive, or your position tenable? I think everyone on here, including the Christians can see the fact that you are refusing to back up your viewpoint, and making yourself look like a petulant child while doing so.

So, I ask again, why do you think god is an ultimate moral authority, and what reason do you have to believe what he has to say is true?

Do you have any family, or people you know so well that they may as well be family? Do you tend to trust them more than random strangers? If so, do you know why?
 
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