The pre-tribulation rapture

Blade · Mar 31, 2019

Caught up was talked about 300-400AD and before. There are scrolls.. read the one where the man Hymn writer talked about CAUGHT UP before 7 year tribulation. I then after finding that.. saw a show where a man talked about the SAME SCROLLS! And he found earlier ones.

So lets get off this "BOAT" this "idea" Caught up was not talked about before 1800's. This in it self does not prove there is a pre caught up. Facts.. we need to speak truth. There is nothing in the word of God as you know and all the FAMOUS preachers know. No pre trib no mid trib no post trib written in the word of GOD. We just tell others "what that verse really means is really saying" so forth so on.

So...for me.. to now speculate is foolish. One I was not promised tomorrow. So I don't have faith Jesus is coming some date in the future .. a day again I was never promised. So I have faith in the moment the day I was given. Since this is NOT about me and what I personally believe. I am not going to try over and over as to why MY personal believe is right.

For me..if I was standing there.. and Jesus told me or.. the 12 told me later that Jesus said "I am going back to my Fathers house to make you a home. And if I go I will come back and get you take you receive you unto myself so where I am you will be. Where I go you know and how I go you know". Then watch not long after that Him going up. Then hearing two angels this same JESUS is coming back the same way He left. Sorry WHEN would YOU be thinking He is coming back? We all watched this MAN this son of God do things NO MAN ever did.. and what ever He spoke happen and He never lied.

Me? Hello ...I would KNOW at any moment He is coming. Just as they did. You know that's what I found and came away with. So.. I live for Him today.. always knowing this could be the moment. So.. happy full of JOY! Always thinking about Him.. watching what I do think say feel.. always living for HIM. Watching waiting ready. I am not right.. I am just ready now. No pre no mid no post. Not written. When a thief does come.. he takes something .. and leaves and you never knew he was there..

I can not say.. if one is not watching not ready does not believe.. will they still go? And then Gods wrath is coming on the WORLD not just some cities.. on ALL! Then.. there are verse people NEVER tal about.. US IN HEAVEN! If its post.. WHEN are we in heaven? To many speculation.. things that are just "what that really means is really saying"

Just be ready now! Live in the moment you were given

usexpat97 · Mar 31, 2019

I don't get it. I really don't. Why is ONLY this thread "Controversial Christian," and not re-categorized under Eschatology, even though the subject line clearly says in bold print, "pre tribulation rapture"??

I really need to know, so I can understand where to start threads properly.

Copperhead · Mar 31, 2019

Yeah, living in the moment is pretty good advice.

I think though that in most folk's hearts, they are apprehensive about the future and the hope of the future redemption can be very comforting. And there is ample verses in both the OT and NT that give clues to what is going to happen.

And the Lord is notoriously reliable in letting His own know what His plans are before He acts. It is just simple curiosity for those that are part of His to seek these things out.

Copperhead · Mar 31, 2019

usexpat97 said:
I don't get it. I really don't. Why is ONLY this thread "Controversial Christian," and not re-categorized under Eschatology, even though the subject line clearly says in bold print, "pre tribulation rapture"??

I really need to know, so I can understand where to start threads properly.

Even this should not really be all that controversial. Some seem to get their knickers all in a wad and make eschatology more of a condition of salvation, which is taking things a little too far.

_Dave_ · Mar 31, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You need to read the whole passage in context, if you think the marriage of the Lamb is happening in heaven seven years before the Second Coming.
In the passage above the marriage occurs at the Second Coming of Christ, instead of seven years earlier.

The context of Rev 19:7-8 is the marriage supper of the lamb, as distinct from the wedding ceremony.

In context, the wedding takes place at the rapture when Christ comes for his bride before the tribulation starts. The marriage supper is a different, separate celebration later on in heaven; which in the traditional Jewish marriage takes place some days (eschatological years) after the wedding.

Some Bible versions use the wording similar to a marriage supper in this passage, some do not. But the meaning in the Greek is pretty clear what is meant:

Gamos "a wedding or marriage festival, a wedding banquet, a wedding feast"

BABerean2 · Mar 31, 2019

_Dave_ said:
The context of Rev 19:7-8 is the marriage supper of the lamb, as distinct from the wedding ceremony.

In context, the wedding takes place at the rapture when Christ comes for his bride before the tribulation starts. The marriage supper is a different, separate celebration later on in heaven; which in the traditional Jewish marriage takes place some days (eschatological years) after the wedding.

What does the text say?

Revelation 19:7

(CJB) "Let us rejoice and be glad! Let us give him the glory! For the time has come for the wedding of the Lamb, and his Bride has prepared herself --

(ESV) Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

(Geneva) Let vs be glad and reioyce, and giue glory to him: for the marriage of that Lambe is come, and his wife hath made her selfe ready.

(Greek NT TR) χαιρωμεν και αγαλλιωμεθα και δωμεν την δοξαν αυτω οτι ηλθεν ο γαμος του αρνιου και η γυνη αυτου ητοιμασεν εαυτην

(GW) Let us rejoice, be happy, and give him glory because it's time for the marriage of the lamb. His bride has made herself ready.

(LITV-TSP) Let us rejoice and let us exult, and we will give glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife prepared herself.

(KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(KJV+) Let us be gladG5463 andG2532 rejoice,G21 andG2532 giveG1325 honourG1391 to him:G846 forG3754 theG3588 marriageG1062 of theG3588 LambG721 is come,G2064 andG2532 hisG848 wifeG1135 hath made herself ready.G2090 G1438

(NKJV) Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."

(YLT) may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;

.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 31, 2019

HTacianas said:
Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

There will be both a...

#1. Pre-Tribulation Rapture
(1 Corinthians 15:51-53) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) (Luke 12:40), and a
#2. Mid-Tribulation Rapture
(Luke 21:28) (Luke 17:31-37) (Matthew 24:15-22).

Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

For some good verses on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:
(Click on the spoiler button below to check out the verses):

The Pre-Trib Rapture:
(The 1st Rapture or Translation of the Saints):

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the "Day of Wrath"):

• Luke 21:34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

• Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Here are some clues or breadcrumbs for the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Pre-Trib Rapture is paralleled in Genesis and Revelation:
(Click on the spoiler button):

We know that if we want to verify a truth within God's Word, we know that the Bible testifies of itself by the fact that it repeats the same message or idea over and over thru out the whole of Scripture.

So one came make the parallel that...

1. The Church is sent out to spread the Gospel (Revelation 1)
2. Some in the Church are warned of His Return & Judgment (Revelation 2-3)
3. Rapture of Faithful Church (Revelation 4)
4. Judgment of Daniel's 70th Week Begins that will bring the End (Revelation 6)

In fact, the same parallel can be made with Noah and the Flood, too.

For there were 3 groups of people facing the Judgment of the Flood:

1. Those that perished in the Global Flood.
2. Those that were preserved thru the time of the Global Flood.
3. Those that were removed prior to the Global Flood.

For Enoch was translated before the Flood, right?
And Noah and his family went thru the Judgment of the Flood but were protected by God, right? Sort of like the 144,000 Jewish Christians who will be protected or sealed by God thru the tribulation.

So a Pre-Trib Rapture proves to be Biblical and true not only in straight forward teaching but by paralleling the beginning and ending stories within the Bible, too.

Those who say the Lord is delaying His Coming:
(Check out the spoiler button):

Now, the problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture or not holding to a Rapture of any kind (With a reliance upon just a Second Coming or some other idea) is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

"If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says or worse yet, He is not coming at all.

For Matthew continues to say,

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you ignore His return that could happen at any moment or if you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

• Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.

Comparing the Trumpet of Blessing vs. the Trumpet of Judgment:
(Click on the following spoiler button):

There are some differences between the two trumpets (i.e. The Trumpet mentioned by Paul, and the Trumpet mentioned by John).

The trumpet within the Rapture is called the "trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The trumpet of in the End Times within Revelation is the trumpet of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15).

The trumpet within the Rapture is singular. There is no mention of a series of trumpets. The trumpet of Revelation is the seventh of seven. The phrase, last trump, has a different significance.

In 1 Thessalonians 4 (within the Rapture), the trumpets calls the dead to life. The seventh trumpet of Revelation occurs after a resurrection occurs (Revelation 11:12).

The trumpet within the Rapture comes as a blessing. The trumpet of Revelation comes with judgment and is called the third woe (Revelation 11:14).

The trump within the Rapture sounds in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). The seventh trumpet of Revelation sounds for "days" (Revelation 10:7 HCSB).

Knowing the Timing of Period Called "Wrath" and Realizing We are not Appointed Unto "Wrath":
(Click on the following spoiler button):

Revelation 6:17 begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says we are not appointed unto wrath.

Mid Tribulation Rapture:

(Click on the spoiler button to check out an explanation on the verses):

The Mid Trib Rapture:
(or second translation of the saints):
In the Mid Tribulation Rapture, there are three key verses that indicate this.

In Luke 21:28 believers are told when they see the abomination of desolation, and the signs of the sun, the moon, etc in the sky, they are told to look up because their redemption draws near. For Jesus said, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

In Luke 17, Jesus talks about not returning back to your home to get your things (Which is the same event in Matthew 24 after one sees the Abomination of Desolation). Here in this event, we are told in Luke 17:36-37, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." This is a Rapture. They are being taken by the Lord to fight in the upcoming battle. The eagles are believers (See Isaiah 40:31).

In Matthew 24:22 says about the coming great tribulation, "...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Again, the Mid Tribulation Rapture takes place after the enforcement of the Mark, but before the final conclusion of the 6th seal. Please take note that I used to believe the second Rapture was a Rapture within the Great Tribulation shortly before the return of Christ, but I no longer believe that; The second Rapture takes place at the Mid Point of the Tribulation.

There is a difference between the two Raptures:

(Click on the following spoiler button):

One has to understand the different steps in marriage within Scripture in order to comprehend what is going on.

The first Rapture is the call unto marriage.

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10). This was at a time of hour that they did not know when the Son of man comes (Matthew 25:13).

The second Rapture is when the Lord will return from the wedding so as to let those in in who knock afterwards.

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).

The Marriage is symbolic of the Rapture.

However, you have to realize that the Pre-Trib is the only position where a person has the most to lose.

Those who say everything has been fulfilled already have not truly believed Revelation at face value. For anyone who is honest with themselves in reading it will see that none of the major things in Revelation have happened yet.

The Post Tribulation view is obviously false because the church is not appointed unto Wrath.

Saying there is no Rapture means you have not read the Rapture verses with an open mind.

usexpat97 · Mar 31, 2019

Post Trib view is obviously false because we are not appointed unto Wrath.

Not true. While those in Christ may not be appointed to wrath, that does not mean they will not be on earth during that time. You just have to do what God says during that time, and fasten your seat belts--because it's going to be a wild ride.

_Dave_ · Mar 31, 2019

BABerean2 said:
What does the text say?

You left out a couple of the versions that mentioned marriage supper or marriage feast. But it's not important.

What's important is correct usage in context. That's why the author (God) chose to use the Greek word gamos; which carries the meaning of "a wedding or marriage festival, a wedding banquet, a wedding feast" as the first definition in Strong's.

From the context of the traditional Jewish wedding as a type for the rapture, and taking into account the whole counsel of God, the usage as a marriage feast makes perfect sense. Forum member Copperhead has some posts further supporting this exegesis.

Those who wish to conflate the wedding with the marriage supper should do an extensive study of the traditional Jewish wedding. They are two totally different things, occurring at two totally separate times. Once one plugs that understanding into the text, in context, it all fits nicely into place.

One additional note, assuming that the wedding takes place after the bride (the church) has gone through all the catastrophic events of the tribulation and got the living crap beat out of her there is no indication in the text whatsoever anywhere of Christ meeting a bloody, beaten, even headless, bride at the alter.

Context, brother, context.

BABerean2 · Mar 31, 2019

_Dave_ said:
One additional note, assuming that the wedding takes place after the bride (the church) has gone through all the catastrophic events of the tribulation and got the living crap beat out of her there is no indication in the text whatsoever anywhere of Christ meeting a bloody, beaten, even headless, bride at the alter.

Do you think all of the Apostles except John are not part of the bride?

Peter and Paul

Both martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified, upside down at his request, since he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.

Andrew

went to the "land of the man-eaters," in what is now the Soviet Union. Christians there claim him as the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas

was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip

possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew

the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew

had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James

the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot

so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais

was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John

is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation. An early Latin tradition has him escaping unhurt after being cast into boiling oil at Rome.

Do you redefine the text to make your doctrine work?

(KJV+) Let us be gladG5463 andG2532 rejoice,G21 andG2532 giveG1325 honourG1391 to him:G846 forG3754 theG3588 marriageG1062 of theG3588 LambG721 is come,G2064 andG2532 hisG848 wifeG1135 hath made herself ready.G2090 G1438

G1062
γάμος
gamos
gam'-os
Of uncertain affinity; nuptials: - marriage, wedding.
Total KJV occurrences: 16

.

_Dave_ · Mar 31, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Do you think all of the Apostles except John are not part of the bride?

Peter and Paul

Both martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified, upside down at his request, since he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.

Andrew

went to the "land of the man-eaters," in what is now the Soviet Union. Christians there claim him as the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas

was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip

possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew

the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew

had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James

the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot

so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais

was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John

is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation. An early Latin tradition has him escaping unhurt after being cast into boiling oil at Rome.

Do you redefine the text to make your doctrine work?

(KJV+) Let us be gladG5463 andG2532 rejoice,G21 andG2532 giveG1325 honourG1391 to him:G846 forG3754 theG3588 marriageG1062 of theG3588 LambG721 is come,G2064 andG2532 hisG848 wifeG1135 hath made herself ready.G2090 G1438

G1062
γάμος
gamos
gam'-os
Of uncertain affinity; nuptials: - marriage, wedding.
Total KJV occurrences: 16

I'm feeling that I'm at the point where I am just repeating myself with the same teaching we've gone over several times already. And it doesn't faze you in the least, as you just come back with the same argument over again. That's the point where I graciously say, let's agree to disagree, end this part of the debate and move on.

Sound like a plan?

Natsumi Lam · Mar 31, 2019

A Great Book about endtimes is This Side of the Whirl Wind by Steven R Harrel.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 31, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Not true. While those in Christ may not be appointed to wrath, that does not mean they will not be on earth during that time. You just have to do what God says during that time, and fasten your seat belts--because it's going to be a wild ride.

No. The Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, and 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

At the conclusion of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:14-17 talks about how the great day of His wrath has come.

"And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?"

I hope this helps.

May God bless you.

Copperhead · Mar 31, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Not true. While those in Christ may not be appointed to wrath, that does not mean they will not be on earth during that time. You just have to do what God says during that time, and fasten your seat belts--because it's going to be a wild ride.

Well, if we are on the earth thru all this, there is a ton of scripture that needs to be thrown out of the Bible since it is not true. Especially a lot of it in the OT. I am not fastening my seat belt. I don't want to be hindered one bit when the shout goes out and we are gathered to the Lord.

Copperhead · Mar 31, 2019

Jason0047 said:
At the conclusion of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:14-17 talks about how the great day of His wrath has come.

I would see that more of an acknowledgement finally by those on the earth that the Day of His Wrath was already come. The tense of the passage be past tense, that it already was operating.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

I would be willing to bet that those in that time will have no real clue up till the later seals that it is the Lord's hand that is on all of the events. But they will finally come to the realization that it is. After all, who is making the claim that the wrath has come, not angels or the HS, but those that in the previous verses are wanting the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Lamb. They finally pull their head out of their backside and realize that what has been going on is of the Lord.

Even after Noah and his family and the animals were in the ark and the door was sealed shut by YHVH, those on the earth didn't realize the jig was up till the rain fell 7 days later.

I know some like to point to when the actual wording of wrath is so they can say that is when it starts, but if we just look at the Flood event during Noah's time, it was never said once that it is YHVH's wrath, but it would be difficult to dispute that it wasn't His wrath, as it was most definitely by His hand that it happened. Matter of fact, the first use of "wrath" in Genesis isn't until chapter 49, and it isn't being associated directly with the Lord. But before Genesis 49, there was many instances of YHVH getting upset and lashing out with wrath or judgment. Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind as does the Tower of Babel event.

Likewise, none of the events associated with seal one onward could happen unless Yeshua started opening them. This corresponds to 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 where the man of sin / antichrist / false messiah cannot be revealed until the one restraining steps out of the way. None of any of the GT period could even start until it was directed to start from the Lord. So it is sound reasoning to imply that the wrath started at seal one. It may not fit some folk's world view of things, but it is a reasoned analysis.

I understand some won't see it this way. That's ok. I won't be offended.

BABerean2 · Apr 1, 2019

_Dave_ said:
I'm feeling that I'm at the point where I am just repeating myself with the same teaching we've gone over several times already. And it doesn't faze you in the least, as you just come back with the same argument over again. That's the point where I graciously say, let's agree to disagree, end this part of the debate and move on.

Sound like a plan?

It would be a great plan, if you would stop attempting to promote John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine on this forum.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 1, 2019

Copperhead said:
I would see that more of an acknowledgement finally by those on the earth that the Day of His Wrath was already come. The tense of the passage be past tense, that it already was operating.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

I would be willing to bet that those in that time will have no real clue up till the later seals that it is the Lord's hand that is on all of the events. But they will finally come to the realization that it is. After all, who is making the claim that the wrath has come, not angels or the HS, but those that in the previous verses are wanting the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Lamb. They finally pull their head out of their backside and realize that what has been going on is of the Lord.

Even after Noah and his family and the animals were in the ark and the door was sealed shut by YHVH, those on the earth didn't realize the jig was up till the rain fell 7 days later.

I know some like to point to when the actual wording of wrath is so they can say that is when it starts, but if we just look at the Flood event during Noah's time, it was never said once that it is YHVH's wrath, but it would be difficult to dispute that it wasn't His wrath, as it was most definitely by His hand that it happened. Matter of fact, the first use of "wrath" in Genesis isn't until chapter 49, and it isn't being associated directly with the Lord. But before Genesis 49, there was many instances of YHVH getting upset and lashing out with wrath or judgment. Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind as does the Tower of Babel event.

Likewise, none of the events associated with seal one onward could happen unless Yeshua started opening them. This corresponds to 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 where the man of sin / antichrist / false messiah cannot be revealed until the one restraining steps out of the way. None of any of the GT period could even start until it was directed to start from the Lord. So it is sound reasoning to imply that the wrath started at seal one. It may not fit some folk's world view of things, but it is a reasoned analysis.

I understand some won't see it this way. That's ok. I won't be offended.

I disagree. In the Olivet Discourse: Even shortly before the Wrath is about to hit, believers are told during that time to look up because their redemption draws near (See Luke 21:28). Why are they told to look up? What does redemption have to do with looking upwards? This clearly sounds like a Rapture.

They are told this sometime after the enforcement of the Mark, and yet before the final conclusion of the breaking of the 6th seal (Which is where the majority of the wicked men left on the Earth declare "the great day of his wrath has come" - Revelation 6:17). Another problem (with your view): Is that "wrath" does not mean "wrath" in another case (Without any clear indication that they are different - Compare again: 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 with Revelation 6:17).

_Dave_ · Apr 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
It would be a great plan, if you would stop attempting to promote John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine on this forum.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Wow! You just can't let it go and graciously agree to disagree.

BABerean 2, I'm not the least bit interested in appealing to extra-biblical writers to support my view on the rapture. All I need to know is that God said it, Paul preached it, and the 1st century church believed it.

Anything after that to deny the rapture doctrine is merely man's corruption of the church ... promulgated by the writers that you are so fond of.

I'm happy to discuss the Scriptural basis for the rapture, but I would merely be repeating what I have already offered. You reject my explanations from the Word. That's fine. I accept that. So, there is no point in dragging it on with you.

OK?

BABerean2 · Apr 1, 2019

_Dave_ said:
Wow! You just can't let it go and graciously agree to disagree.

BABerean 2, I'm not the least bit interested in appealing to extra-biblical writers to support my view on the rapture. All I need to know is that God said it, Paul preached it, and the 1st century church believed it.

Anything after that to deny the rapture doctrine is merely man's corruption of the church ... promulgated by the writers that you are so fond of.

I'm happy to discuss the Scriptural basis for the rapture, but I would merely be repeating what I have already offered. You reject my explanations from the Word. That's fine. I accept that. So, there is no point in dragging it on with you.

OK?

When someone dares to disagree with the pretrib doctrine, then sooner or later there is often a personal attack..
Now I am not "gracious".

I have never denied the supernatural rapture of the Church, described in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, and 5.

It is the timing, which is your problem.

It must be pretrib for those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, so that God can go back and deal with Israel.
Many of the early promoters of your doctrine claimed God would deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system, during the 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

The problem is that once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, your Two Peoples of God distinctions between Israel and the Church fall apart, and your pretrib removal of the New Covenant Church falls with it.

.

usexpat97 · Apr 1, 2019

Jason0047 said:
No. The Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, and 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

...

I hope this helps.

Not really. Again: I never said I contested whether those in Christ were ever appointed to wrath. They aren't. But that does not necessitate Christians not being on the planet at all. Have you ever witnessed a car accident? You were still there on the scene.

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