Do Sacraments Make Any Difference??

Markie Boy said:

I have a friend that was in Catholic seminary - but was somewhat run out by the modernists.

He since left the faith and became first agnostic, then deist. He is asking for evidence that sacraments make any difference at all. He's seen so much poor performance from those with tons of sacramental exposure, and then so much kindness from those that have no exposure to sacraments.

The question is - where is there any evidence sacraments make any difference? I'm stuck as I have seen the same thing.

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Do you mean "where is the evidence proving baptism washes away sin" or "where is the evidence the Eucharist gives eternal life" I don't know.

But you only need to Google Catholic charities in your hometown to find the results of the sacraments.

Markie Boy said:

I have a friend that was in Catholic seminary - but was somewhat run out by the modernists.

He since left the faith and became first agnostic, then deist. He is asking for evidence that sacraments make any difference at all. He's seen so much poor performance from those with tons of sacramental exposure, and then so much kindness from those that have no exposure to sacraments.

The question is - where is there any evidence sacraments make any difference? I'm stuck as I have seen the same thing.

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Sacramental exposure does not substitute for sanctification and the inner work that comes after being born again. Sacraments can be good, but you need to understand for yourself what they are for you. If you see them as some voodoo that sucks compassion out of people, then don't receive them, they can be done wrong.

what you are experiencing could just be regional .. or generational. It's hard to say.

I was exposed to the Blessed Sacrament most of my life, but I didn't become a "believer" until I started college, and I didn't begin living what I would call an "authentic Christian life" until very recently. The sacraments are only as effective as we let them be, as much as we cooperate with the grace that they give us.

Michael Collum said:

Sacramental exposure does not substitute for sanctification and the inner work that comes after being born again. Sacraments can be good, but you need to understand for yourself what they are for you. If you see them as some voodoo that sucks compassion out of people, then don't receive them, they can be done wrong.

what you are experiencing could just be regional .. or generational. It's hard to say.

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Just where do you think this "sanctification and the inner work" comes through?

A difference in what?? we are saved by grace through faith so no man may boast, is what the bible teaches, the sacraments are not biblical to salvation

Monk Brendan said:

Just where do you think this "sanctification and the inner work" comes through?

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The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I think in the Orthodox Tradition, you're supposed to receive the Holy Spirit when you receive the sacrament of Baptism. Is that what you're referring to?

Monk Brendan said:

Just where do you think this "sanctification and the inner work" comes through?

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Jesus Christ he has done all the work for us on the cross,

I think communion is a good example of how sacraments can provide different ways to be intimate with God. the key ingredient to a positive sacrament experience is taking them with faith or trust.

"Do this in remembrance of me."

DaveM said:

A difference in what?? we are saved by grace through faith so no man may boast, is what the bible teaches, the sacraments are not biblical to salvation

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You're posting in the Ancient Way. I'm pretty sure your comment violates its ToS.

Markie Boy said:

I have a friend that was in Catholic seminary - but was somewhat run out by the modernists.

He since left the faith and became first agnostic, then deist. He is asking for evidence that sacraments make any difference at all. He's seen so much poor performance from those with tons of sacramental exposure, and then so much kindness from those that have no exposure to sacraments.

The question is - where is there any evidence sacraments make any difference? I'm stuck as I have seen the same thing.

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We dont believe that sacraments exist outside the Church. So I believe Latin sacrament are meaningless.

Sacraments can be to your own detriment that's why so many Orthodox as they get older suffer from ailments. But regardless you have to make use of the tools given to you, if you take them for granted you wont see benefit.

HTacianas said:

But you only need to Google Catholic charities in your hometown to find the results of the sacraments.

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are Catholic sacraments effective? (This is a genuine question, promise I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything!)

Sacraments are not magic. They require faith.

AMM said:

are Catholic sacraments effective? (This is a genuine question, promise I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything!)

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Catholic sacraments are valid. If we go any further than that I'm likely to be burned at the stake.

I don't know if its possible to offer "proof". I think it's the wrong question to look at some people who receive the Sacraments and don't show fruit. After all, St. Paul had to warn people that they were receiving incorrectly and some even got sick and died as a result.

I remember as I was approaching my entry into the Orthodox Church. I had been baptized, but very possibly not correctly at all, so I was received through baptism (along with Chrismation and receiving the Eucharist). I had considered myself a Christian for many decades, and had been a serious one for quite a few years. And saw fruit from it and had been changed. So I wondered if the Sacraments would make any noticeable difference to me? I don't think I really expected them to. I didn't want to approach them as being "magical" or with a superstitious mind.

Its kind of personal and I don't want to go into too much detail. But boy did it make a difference! It's like the blinders were peeled back about certain things and I saw for the first time something of the true state of myself as a person and became aware of .... well, a lot of truths where I had essentially not noticed or had told myself (or listened to temptations) that told me other things.

It was life-changing in a very real sense of the word. Not everything immediately, but it made the way open to begin.

I think I will leave it at that. This is just my story. Of course, people may doubt it or read various other interpretations into it. I don't think "proof" is helpful to anyone except the person who goes through it. My family have been "impressed" about certain things as a result, but none of them are very open to Orthodoxy so ... other than hopefully providing a not-too-poor example, I am not sure it helps. I keep praying for them, and just always hope I don't fall too short for anyone else's sake.

But they made a huge difference to me.

AMM said:

are Catholic sacraments effective? (This is a genuine question, promise I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything!)

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That's not really our question to answer. We know that ours are what Jesus established and have continued.

If God works through any other way for other persons, we can't deny what He wishes to do or how. It would be wrong to say grace is necessarily absent in other situations, because we don't control God.

But we have no sure knowledge of God's condescension in other cases and so can't promise it either.

It's not our question. But bottom line is that we cannot affirm it.

Markie Boy said:

I'd like to understand why you ask this question - in the same spirit of not trying to stir the pot, just understand.

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Because he implied they were valid, but most orthodox people I've heard have said more along what Anastasia said - we can't affirm or deny them, just affirm our sacraments. So I was curious about his position.

the sacraments though, if not taken with preparation and humility, can bring condemnation on the person. so it can actually make you worse.