Denominations

Wow, so many questions! I'll be glad to answer the best I can for myself as I cannot speak for others.

Natsumi Lam said:

Hi Family,

What is the main confusion and source of such contention between denominations?

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From what I have learned and experienced, the confusion starts with man confiding in themselves rather than God for truth. I believe this is why (or at least part of the reason) Jesus said: Matthew 6:33-34

Natsumi Lam said:

What are the pain points for your denom.?

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I don't claim to have a denomination. I believe God's Word to its fullest of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. My pain points, as you say, I suppose would be that the body of Christ is split apart due to these denominations and allowing that title to identify them rather than God Himself - we are made in His image, therefore we are children of God.

Natsumi Lam said:

What draws one person to one denom. and not another?

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Certain upheld beliefs is my guess. There is no perfect church out there due to a fallen world, but we do have God to trust and have faith in to lead us in the right direction in all things.

Natsumi Lam said:

Why did you pick your denomination?

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I didn't, I grew up in a church that happened to be Baptist. Then I felt the push of getting out of there and the pull to another church, which turned out to be Pentecostal.

Natsumi Lam said:

Why do some denominations follow the teachings of one Man/Woman's beliefs about what the Bible says rather than spending time doing self thought?

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I'm not really sure what you mean here, but I'll respond this way: Again, I cannot speak for everyone because I don't know them like God does. My guess is that some or a lot have tickled ears (selective hearing) and follow that belief sometimes even if it does not mesh with what God says or shows in His Word, the Bible.

Natsumi Lam said:

Why do you or don't you use "We" and "Us" and "Our" when speaking about general theology?

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I use the terms "we, us & our" when talking about the body of Christ, but never as individuals. Only God knows their true nature and what their focus is on. But Spiritually and Biblically speaking I use the terms mentioned above.

I hope those answer some of your questions.

Denominations are a "real" thing in the sense that people obviously group together around shared ideas, just like in every other part of life. Fundamentally though, I don't think they matter.

Natsumi Lam said:

What is the main confusion and source of such contention between denominations?

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Whew! So many factors:

• Incorporation of non-essentials as if they were essentials
• Authority structures that don't resemble the early church
• Mistaking uniformity for unity
• Focus on forms rather than life transformation
• Personal preference
• Pendulum swing from excesses or negligence of previous generation
• Loss of gospel understanding and authentic witness
• Fear and anxiety
• Equating interpersonal knowledge of Yahweh with knowing and abiding by a certain formula or list of doctrinal statements.
• The difficulty of "bearing with one another in love"
• Poor discipleship
• picking the wrong hills to die on
• Calcifying authority structures that make backing down impossible
• ETc. Etc.

Natsumi Lam said:

What are the pain points for your denom.?

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I don't have any pain points. I don't focus on denominations, I focus on the people of God who have the life of Jesus in them no matter where I find them. (1 John 5:11) I also find it's better to engage in real conversation with someone rather than assume my understanding of their denominational background is adequate or accurate.

Natsumi Lam said:

What draws one person to one denom. and not another?

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A variety of things, not all bad but, all with a latent seed of danger if they are looking for the "right" church. Here are a few reasons I've encountered:

• Nostalgia (staying with or going back to what they knew from an earlier time)
• Convenience (geographical proximate)
• Structure (a desire to "know the rules" and have consistent expectations met)
• Certainty (psychologically compelled to be in the "right" or "true" church)
• Coherence (wanting a church that matches what they believe faithful Christianity looks like)
• Taste (personal preference due to liturgy style, music, etc.)
• Conformity (the denominational features match personal vision of goodness)

Natsumi Lam said:

Why did you pick your denomination?

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I don't really do that. I look for the life of Christ to be evident. Not everyone in any church or denomination will have that and all who do are maturing. It is not the "perfect" church group, but the evidence of transformed lives of love and truth.

Natsumi Lam said:

Why do some denominations follow the teachings of one Man/Woman's beliefs about what the Bible says rather than spending time doing self thought?

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• They believe they are not capable of accurately understanding God's word or relating to him
• They have grown up in such a structure so it doesn't seem odd
• They have a mystical/superstitious view of the Christian life
• It's convenient not to have to do anything

Natsumi Lam said:

Why do you or don't you use "We" and "Us" and "Our" when speaking about general theology?

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I'm not sure what you're asking here. Life in Christ has both individual and corporate dimensions. Sometimes "you" are God's temple and sometimes "ya'll" are God's temple. Everyone who by faith is sealed with the Spirit of Christ is part of the family/body of Christ. This is true of all times and places. It's a joy to meet, read of or hear from believers all over the world who have been given new life by the same Father, Son and Spirit. I am perfectly comfortable with "we" "us" and "our" in talking about the universal church, but I never assume that includes all people in every church building or denomination.

Natsumi Lam said:

Why are traditions so important?

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They're not important in the sense of being essential. They can be helpful and meaningful, they can be rote and harmful. Humans tend to create patterns and methods, it's a kind of technology. Traditions are patterns used by a group in order to meet some purpose.

Traditions become harmful when:

1. The purpose is forgotten
2. The purpose is no longer relevant
3. The tradition becomes its own reason to exist
4. The tradition get's mistaken for being "necessary"
5. Tradition is mistaken for an interpersonal connection with the Father, by the Son, through the Spirit.
6. Tradition becomes a means of excluding other believers from communion.

Natsumi Lam said:

Hi Family,

What is the main confusion and source of such contention between denominations?

What are the pain points for your denom.?

What draws one person to one denom. and not another?

Why did you pick your denomination?

Why do some denominations follow the teachings of one Man/Woman's beliefs about what the Bible says rather than spending time doing self thought?

Why do you or don't you use "We" and "Us" and "Our" when speaking about general theology?

~Natsumi Lam~

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The pre-Reformation churches are Pre-denominational.

Messerve said:

Also, if a church never opens the Bible and never encourages anyone to bring their own, there's something wrong...

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I was catholic for many years. Scripture was read at every mass but I dont ever remember being encouraged to take a Bible. In fact it was only after being baptised 18 months ago that I began to read my Bible. The church I now attend encourages Bible usage and some take notes of scripture possibly to study at home

Natsumi Lam said:

Hi Family,

What is the main confusion and source of such contention between denominations?

What are the pain points for your denom.?

What draws one person to one denom. and not another?

Why did you pick your denomination?

Why do some denominations follow the teachings of one Man/Woman's beliefs about what the Bible says rather than spending time doing self thought?

Why do you or don't you use "We" and "Us" and "Our" when speaking about general theology?

~Natsumi Lam~

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The Truly Born Again Christian’s know who they are. They are all taught of one accord directly by Christ the meaning of God’s Word.

Monk Brendan said:

The pre-Reformation churches are Pre-denominational.

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By definition the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics all pre-Reformation churches being out of communion with each other by default are denominations by their own doing.

☦Marius☦ said:

For the first 1000 years of Christianity, there was only Orthodoxy. Believers were saved within it without the need for other denominations.

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There were different sects of groups claiming to be Christians. Jewish Christians, Gnostic Christians, and those who followed Paul. Paul's sect won out and eventually became the only Christians recognized by the Roman Empire. All sorts of crazy things happened (and had been happening and building up beforehand). The Great Schism between the east and west and now there are Catholics and Orthodox following different popes, and just like an amoeba, with one pope becoming two with their various sects, and at some time there were three popes and they all battled for political and religious supremacy...hardly a good case for a unity argument here. All of these things took place long before Luther nailed the 95 theses when sects of Christianity started being called by the new label of denomination.

If you believe that the first 1000 years was all unity all the time when Christians regularly gathered and sang kumbuyah holding hands, then you're just looking at that period with spectacles of nostalgia.

Even while Paul was alive, there were various sects causing divisions within the churches. There has NEVER been a time when everyone was "Orthodox" or any other label that you want to call it. There have been various schisms and divisions throughout entire church history and it is made *worse* whenever any groups gets it into their mind that everyone needs to be forced under the same umbrella. God created us non-conformist and unique from the very beginning. Our *only* required conformity is to God alone and that's because we are in his image by default.

bekkilyn said:

There were different sects of groups claiming to be Christians. Jewish Christians, Gnostic Christians, and those who followed Paul. Paul's sect won out and eventually became the only Christians recognized by the Roman Empire. All sorts of crazy things happened (and had been happening and building up beforehand). The Great Schism between the east and west and now there are Catholics and Orthodox following different popes, and just like an amoeba, with one pope becoming two with their various sects, and at some time there were three popes and they all battled for political and religious supremacy...hardly a good case for a unity argument here. All of these things took place long before Luther nailed the 95 theses when sects of Christianity started being called by the new label of denomination.

If you believe that the first 1000 years was all unity all the time when Christians regularly gathered and sang kumbuyah holding hands, then you're just looking at that period with spectacles of nostalgia.

Even while Paul was alive, there were various sects causing divisions within the churches. There has NEVER been a time when everyone was "Orthodox" or any other label that you want to call it. There have been various schisms and divisions throughout entire church history and it is made *worse* whenever any groups gets it into their mind that everyone needs to be forced under the same umbrella. God created us non-conformist and unique from the very beginning. Our *only* required conformity is to God alone and that's because we are in his image by default.

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Having a Pope for Eastern Orthodox is news to me.

Natsumi Lam said:

Hi Family,

What is the main confusion and source of such contention between denominations?

What are the pain points for your denom.?

What draws one person to one denom. and not another?

Why did you pick your denomination?

Why do some denominations follow the teachings of one Man/Woman's beliefs about what the Bible says rather than spending time doing self thought?

Why do you or don't you use "We" and "Us" and "Our" when speaking about general theology?

~Natsumi Lam~

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If every Christian would sets aside every tradition they grew up in and came spiritually naked before Father and started just allowing him to unfold the scripture for them, no denominations would exist.

All4Christ said:

Having a Pope for Eastern Orthodox is news to me.

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Patriarchs if you prefer that term, but the claim was that all Christians were Orthodox during the first 1000 years, and there were plenty of popes during that time. The point is that there was never a time of true Christian unity even back to Paul's time.

Calvin_1985 said:

If every Christian would sets aside every tradition they grew up in and came spiritually naked before Father and started just allowing him to unfold the scripture for them, no denominations would exist.

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In this case, every individual Christian would be a denomination.

bekkilyn said:

Patriarchs if you prefer that term, but the claim was that all Christians were Orthodox during the first 1000 years, and there were plenty of popes during that time. The point is that there was never a time of true Christian unity even back to Paul's time.

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That's right. It has been estimated that there were 80 different denominations in existence during the first century alone.

bekkilyn said:

There were different sects of groups claiming to be Christians. Jewish Christians, Gnostic Christians, and those who followed Paul. Paul's sect won out and eventually became the only Christians recognized by the Roman Empire. All sorts of crazy things happened (and had been happening and building up beforehand). The Great Schism between the east and west and now there are Catholics and Orthodox following different popes, and just like an amoeba, with one pope becoming two with their various sects, and at some time there were three popes and they all battled for political and religious supremacy...hardly a good case for a unity argument here. All of these things took place long before Luther nailed the 95 theses when sects of Christianity started being called by the new label of denomination.

If you believe that the first 1000 years was all unity all the time when Christians regularly gathered and sang kumbuyah holding hands, then you're just looking at that period with spectacles of nostalgia.

Even while Paul was alive, there were various sects causing divisions within the churches. There has NEVER been a time when everyone was "Orthodox" or any other label that you want to call it. There have been various schisms and divisions throughout entire church history and it is made *worse* whenever any groups gets it into their mind that everyone needs to be forced under the same umbrella. God created us non-conformist and unique from the very beginning. Our *only* required conformity is to God alone and that's because we are in his image by default.

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Albion said:

That's right. It has been estimated that there were 80 different denominations in existence during the first century alone.

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They weren't "denominations". They were small groups of people believing things outside the church. The only Church was the one Christ founded with the apostles. Gnostics aren't even Christians, neither are the many other heresies Paul condemns. Paul and the rest of the apostles were part of one church, and they were clear that there were right and wrong beliefs. As for Jewish Christians they would have been Orthodox as well (those that didn't reject the council of Jerusalem and leave the church).

bekkilyn said:

Patriarchs if you prefer that term, but the claim was that all Christians were Orthodox during the first 1000 years, and there were plenty of popes during that time. The point is that there was never a time of true Christian unity even back to Paul's time.

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We have more than one at a time, and they are equal to the rest of the bishops in spiritual authority.

☦Marius☦ said:

They weren't "denominations". They were small groups of people believing things outside the church. The only Church was the one Christ founded with the apostles. Gnostics aren't even Christians, neither are the many other heresies Paul condemns. Paul and the rest of the apostles were part of one church, and they were clear that there were right and wrong beliefs. As for Jewish Christians they would have been Orthodox as well (those that didn't reject the council of Jerusalem and leave the church).

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Christ didn't found a church. He *is* the church along with everyone who makes up his body, and those who believe in him make up his body. It doesn't matter what small (or large) group of people you belong to, if you put your trust in Christ and in his Resurrection and consider him your Lord and Savior, then you are a part of his church. An Orthodox denomination may be like the hip bone in the body of Christ while a Baptist denomination may be more like a left pinky finger, but all are within the body of Christ.

Tigger45 said:

By definition the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics all pre-Reformation churches being out of communion with each other by default are denominations by their own doing.

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Except they considered each other schismatical and not part of the truth church.

bekkilyn said:

Christ didn't found a church. He *is* the church along with everyone who makes up his body, and those who believe in him make up his body. It doesn't matter what small (or large) group of people you belong to, if you put your trust in Christ and in his Resurrection and consider him your Lord and Savior, then you are a part of his church. An Orthodox denomination may be like the hip bone in the body of Christ while a Baptist denomination may be more like a left pinky finger, but all are within the body of Christ.

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This is not possible because Christ could not be at war with himself, is undivided, and is absolute. Christ is the head of the church. Someone is either in the Orthodox Church and don't know it, or they are Orthodox, or they are unsaved. We have a saying, we know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he isn't. In other words there will be people who are not Orthodox in this lifetine deemed faithful enough to be part of the church in the next.

☦Marius☦ said:

This is not possible because Christ could not be at war with himself, is undivided, and is absolute. Christ is the head of the church. Someone is either in the Orthodox Church and don't know it, or they are Orthodox, or they are unsaved. We have a saying, we know where the Holy Spirit is, we don't know where he isn't. In other words there will be people who are not Orthodox in this lifetine deemed faithful enough to be part of the church in the next.

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That's where you and I primarily disagree. You view the denominations as being at war with each other. I view them as representative of our God-given uniqueness in the ways we express our love and devotion to him.

bekkilyn said:

That's where you and I primarily disagree. You view the denominations as being at war with each other. I view them as representative of our God-given uniqueness in the ways we express our love and devotion to him.

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If we simply worshiped different ways I'd be inclined to agree, but spend long enough on this forum and you will realize just how much hatred doctrinal differences brew. We believe different things about Christ, how salvation works, what it means, and those differences alone mean someone is right, and someone is very very wrong.