Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!

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I don't remember giving you authorization to speak for me.
Sorry, you gave me authorisation to speak for you when you went on a public forum and said something incorrect. That's how it works.

But of course, I can understand that you'd be tempted to do so since you're likely existing and breathing upon a Bolshevik cigarette. Am I wrong to surmise this? Am I wrong to not demand that both you and cvanwey come clean on your respective positions on why this matter is so very important?
Yes, you are. Wrong in quite a lot of ways. First, although China is technically a Communist country, take it from one who's lived here for many years that Chinese people are not actually Communists. They don't really care about Communism, and they probably don't know anything about Marx except that he was someone they had to study in school.
Second, I'm not Chinese myself, I just live here.
And third, it doesn't actually matter where we come from or why we think what we think. Play the ball, not the man, and all that.

I love the way you accuse me of doing what it is that you, yourself, are doing. And if the Bible does indeed 'endorse' slavery as you say, then am I by all means to affirm the consequent that you allege exists, especially when @cvanwey in his OP has stated that this thread is supposed to avoid discussing "the moral implications"?
Actually, what he said was that he wasn't addressing the moral implications in that post - not that this thread should not discuss them. Didn't take us long to get to morality, though; and, as usual, it didn't take you long to throw in the red herring of "you're not allowed to say anything until you've met Philo's standards".

No, I'm rather sitting here witnessing the travesty of interlocution that you and cvanwey are attempting to bring about here. And do I call it a travesty? Yes, because nothing is really as "simple" as you would like to make it out to be for the common masses. Can you assure me that there is no Communistic chutzpah or other atheistic obfuscating banter being plied here on your account, IA? Or will your retort "simply" be to chalk up my response as typical "apologetics tactics," as cvanwey is often prone to do?
Yes to both of those. There is no Communistic chutzpah, you are using simple apologetic tactics. Slavery is endorsed by the Bible, the character "The God of the Bible" does obviously approve of it, and yes, this is a problem for Christians who need to believe that the Bible teaches ethical behaviour.
 
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Halbhh

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Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Christians believe that the God of the Old Testament is the same person as the God of the New Testament. So, quite simply, we have evidence that God approves of slavery, endorses it and set down specific rules for capturing, selling, owning and punishing human beings.
If you want to gain a much more accurate understanding, you could pick up some key things by reading in this thread. A very complete reading in the Bible instead shows a broad process of God gradually leading people out of universal human evils like slavery (and others), one step at a time, to finally end slavery in the New Testament among believers. You can find more on that from my posts for instance.
 
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Im on holiday at the moment and dont have much time to read and post. Im sure your thoughts are very well written and thought out, but I dont find the argument convincng. simply put , the record of the bible does not at all look like God having a plan to guide people out of slavery. if that had been the case. God would have been plain from the start that slavery was wrong and would have given guidelines on how to live as justly and humanely as possible within the system While working to change it, making it clearbthat the eventual end goal was to abolish slavery. instead, the bible reads like what I believe it was - written by mortal men ,bsome of whom were fine with slavery and some of whom werent.
 
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PhantomGaze

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In regards to the original post, the poster seems to be forgetting that he's only indicting Christianity based upon an ethical framework that he's inherited from his Christian forebears. The pagan (pre-christian) world never had objections to slavery and would likely scoff at the notion that humans are all created equal.

To the point that the Bible has verses that don't condemn but regulate slavery, I would say that ideas initially introduced are rarely fully expressed. Equality is the logical extension of Christian theology that has all people equal before God.

The grander narrative of the God's redeeming the world through Christ is the narrative through which Christians are meant to approach the Bible, and this is the lens through which Christians are supposed to approach the Bible, and that is according to the Bible itself.

The biggest problem with the argument from the original post though is that if you proverbially take an axe to the very root of the tree that is our intellectual foundations of equality, yet still demand it's fruit, you're going to go hungry. It might not happen right away, but society will change, and I think we can see this beginning even now, toward one that is increasingly aggressive based on political associations, the rise of nationalism, ethics based upon self-interest rather than love, increase of isolation and a decline in pro-social behavior. To bring this full circle, these are symptoms of regression to a Pre-Christian state where we have no rational basis for the equality and solidarity that we value.
 
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devolved

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I'm not sure if you are making an attempt at 'progressive revelation', or some other facsimile?

God has no problem 'laying down the law', with many commands, regardless if it was already known to humans at the time, or not.

The position of Judeo-Christian theology is that in its inception of humanity rejected the theocratic aquisition of knowledge, and instead went with subjective preference and self-discovery. That's the story of the fall.

God seems to honor that approach, and merely nudge people in the direction of discovery of proper relationship with nature and human community. Whatever revelation you get from Biblical narrative is contextualized in the existing human knowledge, traditions and language.

As such, the context for Israel's theocracy wasn't progressive revelation, but progressive trust.

It sounds to me like you are saying that maybe God, for whatever reason, did not want to simply state, ''do not own other humans', and to instead let humans figure it out on our own? If so, I find this absurd, in light of all the other laws God told humans NOT to do, from the get-go.

Your will find it absurd because your theological expectations are absurd.

You have to understand that God didn't institute slavery. God is shown to be working through people to restore order and proper relationship between people and God. That's the predominant narrative of the entire of the Judeo-Christian story.

Are you then going to bring up how, at the time, humans needed slavery to sustain economics?

There was no economics back then the way you think about economics today. It was largely an agrarian tribal setting with some minimal context for market. You are looking and judging that culture through the eyes of present-day consumer economics, and that wasn't how the culture worked.

I'm not trying to place words into your mouth. Maybe you are coming at this at an entirely different direction?

Please advise?

Your objections seem to be to your distaste for cultural standards of the past, which I wholeheartedly share. I wouldn't want to live in OT Israel anymore than I would want to live in the OT Greek or Roman culture.

But, you can't have a viable conversation on this subject without taking into account that Judeo-Christian religion was a mechanism for subversive culture... and it's contractual in nature. People had to believe it, and then they had to execute it.

As such, the belief is presented with some caveats of the cultural setting from which these people are separating from. Jumping to entirely different and perfect cultural model would be rather absurd. For example, if you transported some of the most educated people of the past into the most educated setting of the present... the gap is so vast that the only common understanding would be relevant to common human experience.

As such, there's actually a cultural re-appropriation of slavery in Christian narrative. It takes ownership of people and flips it on its head by saying that all of us are responsible to the degree that slaves are made forcefully to commit to slave owners.
 
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The position of Judeo-Christian theology is that in its inception of humanity rejected the theocratic aquisition of knowledge, and instead went with subjective preference and self-discovery. That's the story of the fall.

God seems to honor that approach, and merely nudge people in the direction of discovery of proper relationship with nature and human community. Whatever revelation you get from Biblical narrative is contextualized in the existing human knowledge, traditions and language.

As such, the context for Israel's theocracy wasn't progressive revelation, but progressive trust.



Your will find it absurd because your theological expectations are absurd.

You have to understand that God didn't institute slavery. God is shown to be working through people to restore order and proper relationship between people and God. That's the predominant narrative of the entire of the Judeo-Christian story.



There was no economics back then the way you think about economics today. It was largely an agrarian tribal setting with some minimal context for market. You are looking and judging that culture through the eyes of present-day consumer economics, and that wasn't how the culture worked.



Your objections seem to be to your distaste for cultural standards of the past, which I wholeheartedly share. I wouldn't want to live in OT Israel anymore than I would want to live in the OT Greek or Roman culture.

But, you can't have a viable conversation on this subject without taking into account that Judeo-Christian religion was a mechanism for subversive culture... and it's contractual in nature. People had to believe it, and then they had to execute it.

As such, the belief is presented with some caveats of the cultural setting from which these people are separating from. Jumping to entirely different and perfect cultural model would be rather absurd. For example, if you transported some of the most educated people of the past into the most educated setting of the present... the gap is so vast that the only common understanding would be relevant to common human experience.

As such, there's actually a cultural re-appropriation of slavery in Christian narrative. It takes ownership of people and flips it on its head by saying that all of us are responsible to the degree that slaves are made forcefully to commit to slave owners.
So , would it be fair to summarise your position as this:
Slavery is morally wrong. God had a plan to show this. He did so by first regulating slavery in the Old Testament and, secondly, by providing moral lessons through Jesus to show people that slavery was a bad thing.
Does this summary reflect your views accurately?
 
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Halbhh

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Im on holiday at the moment and dont have much time to read and post. Im sure your thoughts are very well written and thought out, but I dont find the argument convincng. simply put , the record of the bible does not at all look like God having a plan to guide people out of slavery. if that had been the case. God would have been plain from the start that slavery was wrong and would have given guidelines on how to live as justly and humanely as possible within the system While working to change it, making it clearbthat the eventual end goal was to abolish slavery. instead, the bible reads like what I believe it was - written by mortal men ,bsome of whom were fine with slavery and some of whom werent.
Yet Philemon, and more, perfectly clear, as the posts you probably didn't see yet point out.
 
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A_Thinker

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So , would it be fair to summarise your position as this:
Slavery is morally wrong. God had a plan to show this. He did so by first regulating slavery in the Old Testament and, secondly, by providing moral lessons through Jesus to show people that slavery was a bad thing.
Does this summary reflect your views accurately?
I think that you are leaving out the fact that MEN instituted slavery, which, BTW, wasn't particularly regulated ...

It is just as fair to recognize that the Jews are among the least guilty of such ...
 
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A_Thinker

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simply put , the record of the bible does not at all look like God having a plan to guide people out of slavery.
How odd, then, that it did ... after-all it is judeo-christian cultures which first rejected slavery ...
 
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BNR32FAN

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As long as you were/are a Hebrew.

Otherwise, it would appear 'God" allows/sanctions/condones a lifetime of slavery, with virtually no restrictions in 'punishment', just short of death.

As a disclaimer, this topic would never rear it's 'ugly' head, if there existed even one verse in the Bible stating something to the affect of, 'don't own humans as property.' Or, never mentioned slavery at all. But instead, it provides the contrary.

As another disclaimer, I'm not addressing the 'moral' implications. I'm instead mentioning this topic because when 'slavery' is thrown out there, from a non-believer, the believer quite often uses the word 'regulate'. Which implies, at least to me, that the believer too does not agree with 'slavery' and is using 'apologetics tactics'.

I know this topic is anything but new, but I have to bring it up, because it would more likely appear that such verses were written by humans, whom simply passed them off as God pronouncements. Which is yet another reason non-believers can so easily read from this book and not take it too seriously.

Thoughts?

The slaves you are referring to were from the spoils of war which the wars were waged because of disobedience to God and attacks against Israel which God punished these people due to their disobedience and made examples of them for other nations to see. The Israelites did not go around enslaving innocent people for their own personal gain. Slavery was punishment for disobedience to God and acts of immorality. As a result of slavery many were taught the scriptures and given the opportunity to be reconciled to God resulting in their salvation where as if they had been left to their own fate would’ve resulted in eternal damnation in the lake of fire. So while it may seem like a harsh punishment to some people, God being outside of time knew this short punishment here on earth could result in the salvation of many people who would’ve otherwise burned for all eternity. So life of slavery was a small price to pay. Also slave owners were not allowed to beat their slaves without adequate reason and the Jews did have law’s concerning the severity of punishment of slaves.
 
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gaara4158

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I think it's more than simply worth noting because, from my experience, most skeptics and atheists don't seem to really think that Americans who have defended slavery in the past weren't biblically justified in doing so, or skeptics think the converse applies, that Americans of the past--even those who were Christian abolitionist--were not justified in refuting the claims of the white American slavers. So, with this mind, it's worth a further appraisal because it's not something that anyone seems to really believe, despite occasional lip-service to the contrary.
Well, we can weigh the differences between American and Jewish slavery all day and night, but I don't think it matters to the discussion as to whether ancient Jewish slavery is ethically defensible. Obviously the Bible has been used to support all manner of opposing views, but what we really need to figure out is whether it is the intent of the authors of those passages regulating slavery to suggest that the institution as a whole is acceptable. If it is, we can then see if those regulations successfully make the institution acceptable by our commonly-held ethical standards. If they do, we can lay this all to rest. If not, well, you know my conclusion.

First off, by what we find in the article (assuming some here have indeed read it in full), and being that we don't know the extent to which an earlier Israelite/Jewish Oral Torah played an auxiliary part in the day by day adjudications of the Law of Moses by which decisions of mercy for the slaves and/or judgements upon the harsher slave owners were enacted, then it really does come off to me on the part of skeptics/atheists to be special pleading by way of inferences made upon the THINNEST of literary evidence, which in this case seems to be the lazy citations of...........oh............about 3 or 4 verses that just don't 'sit well' with the average intuitively oriented citizen today.
It may be lazy if we take one look at those verses and throw the whole thing away, but I'd say it's just as lazy to see those verses and assume that because we don't have the full details, there's probably some sufficient explanation for them being a part of God's rules. If we're not able to get to the bottom of it, is it really socially responsible to shrug it off as an oddity?

Secondly, I can understand that you personally are a bit more thoughtful in your approach to this subject matter than many, but we might also have to keep in mind that there is more to this WHOLE analysis since the social philosophy that drives some aspects of the modern Human Rights Regime isn't as robust or as impervious to criticism as apparently many people today would like for us to think it is. Moreover, pragmatic ethics, or especially sheer notions of pragmatics, have their limitations as well.

Even with this being the case, I'm all for Civil Right and Human Rights, and I truly believe that God is too. However, the ethical notions by which many today attempt to axiomatically install Human Rights into our societies is, to some extent, what non-Christian philosopher Jeremy Bentham called a few hundred years ago, "Nonsense on stilts!" It is also something that modern social philosopher, Michael Freeman, admits is a concept that has only the most ethereal of pragmatic foundations, nearly without ontology and extremely problematic, at best

And so, unfortunately, there are several ethical bug-a-boos that we have to contend but with which many less thoughtful people seem to just automatically ignore, for whatever pragmatic reasons. Fortunately for humanity, we have the wisdom, grace and mercy of Christ to lead us forward ...
Yes, I'm prepared to accept that a pragmatic ethical framework isn't as satisfying or "final" as the monistic idealism of objective morality by divine command, but unfortunately I am of the belief that is more factually defensible.
 
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Halbhh

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Well, we can weigh the differences between American and Jewish slavery all day and night, but I don't think it matters to the discussion as to whether ancient Jewish slavery is ethically defensible. Obviously the Bible has been used to support all manner of opposing views, but what we really need to figure out is whether it is the intent of the authors of those passages regulating slavery to suggest that the institution as a whole is acceptable. If it is, we can then see if those regulations successfully make the institution acceptable by our commonly-held ethical standards. If they do, we can lay this all to rest. If not, well, you know my conclusion.


It may be lazy if we take one look at those verses and throw the whole thing away, but I'd say it's just as lazy to see those verses and assume that because we don't have the full details, there's probably some sufficient explanation for them being a part of God's rules. If we're not able to get to the bottom of it, is it really socially responsible to shrug it off as an oddity?


Yes, I'm prepared to accept that a pragmatic ethical framework isn't as satisfying or "final" as the monistic idealism of objective morality by divine command, but unfortunately I am of the belief that is more factually defensible.
If a nation does better than its contemporaries, then it's already showing an 'ethically defensible' fact -- to not merely state an ideal few or none do, but something far superior ethically.

To actually do an improvement morally, an outcome.

For instance to have an Underground Railroad, as they did by law from God.
Deuteronomy 23:15 Do not return a slave to his master if he has taken refuge with you.
Deuteronomy 23:16 Let him live among you wherever he chooses, in the town of his pleasing. Do not oppress him.

It takes time to advance to outcomes like Philemon.
 
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Halbhh

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Well, we can weigh the differences between American and Jewish slavery all day and night, but I don't think it matters to the discussion as to whether ancient Jewish slavery is ethically defensible. Obviously the Bible has been used to support all manner of opposing views, but what we really need to figure out is whether it is the intent of the authors of those passages regulating slavery to suggest that the institution as a whole is acceptable. If it is, we can then see if those regulations successfully make the institution acceptable by our commonly-held ethical standards. If they do, we can lay this all to rest. If not, well, you know my conclusion.


It may be lazy if we take one look at those verses and throw the whole thing away, but I'd say it's just as lazy to see those verses and assume that because we don't have the full details, there's probably some sufficient explanation for them being a part of God's rules. If we're not able to get to the bottom of it, is it really socially responsible to shrug it off as an oddity?


Yes, I'm prepared to accept that a pragmatic ethical framework isn't as satisfying or "final" as the monistic idealism of objective morality by divine command, but unfortunately I am of the belief that is more factually defensible.

We'd like to imagine peoples from 3,500 years ago did not --

All have slaves, around the world.
All sacrifice children to 'gods' -- such as forcing them to walk into fire (!), or cutting out their hearts while still alive (was that the Maya?...)

and more.

But, then there is reality. The actual.

The actual is what needs to be changed.

The ideal is quite easy to state.

The idea of just saying a good moral law from our own place today is very easy.

Changing the actual to be better is the only truly ethical accomplishment.
 
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Halbhh

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Well, we can weigh the differences between American and Jewish slavery all day and night, but I don't think it matters to the discussion as to whether ancient Jewish slavery is ethically defensible. Obviously the Bible has been used to support all manner of opposing views, but what we really need to figure out is whether it is the intent of the authors of those passages regulating slavery to suggest that the institution as a whole is acceptable. If it is, we can then see if those regulations successfully make the institution acceptable by our commonly-held ethical standards. If they do, we can lay this all to rest. If not, well, you know my conclusion.


It may be lazy if we take one look at those verses and throw the whole thing away, but I'd say it's just as lazy to see those verses and assume that because we don't have the full details, there's probably some sufficient explanation for them being a part of God's rules. If we're not able to get to the bottom of it, is it really socially responsible to shrug it off as an oddity?


Yes, I'm prepared to accept that a pragmatic ethical framework isn't as satisfying or "final" as the monistic idealism of objective morality by divine command, but unfortunately I am of the belief that is more factually defensible.

Have a look for yourself:

Deuteronomy 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, practices divination or conjury, interprets omens, practices sorcery,

Leviticus 18:21 You must not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

29The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
Deuteronomy 12 NIV

Child sacrifice in pre-Columbian cultures - Wikipedia

Or more generally:
Child sacrifice - Wikipedia

See? To actually change the real facts into better facts -- that is what is "ethical". Not merely to state a law that would be ignored (by people with free will who may decide to ignore it, like a speed limit law in many places in the U.S.) but to do what it takes, over time, to truly change the facts into better facts.

God is into true and real change.

Under the condition of actual free will, autonomy of self, which He set as our condition, that we can do as we choose.

So, it's about changing how we are in deep ways, not merely stating a law that will be ignored.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sorry, you gave me authorisation to speak for you when you went on a public forum and said something incorrect. That's how it works.
That's good for me to know. Does this work both ways?

Yes, you are. Wrong in quite a lot of ways. First, although China is technically a Communist country, take it from one who's lived here for many years that Chinese people are not actually Communists. They don't really care about Communism, and they probably don't know anything about Marx except that he was someone they had to study in school.
Thanks for the additional input, but I've been aware that not many people who live under a Communist regime are, as you said, "technically" Communist themselves. I mean, no one wants to be handed a full barf-bag by a stewardess on an airplane and be told that he's receiving the full meal deal when its obvious it just a bag full of barf. I think the Chinese people have always known this, as did most Russian people did when living under the U.S.S.R., among others, and for those of us in the West such as myself, I think this fact became fairly evident when the Tiananmen Square incident happened about 30 years ago.

Second, I'm not Chinese myself, I just live here.
I kind of figured that, IA.

And third, it doesn't actually matter where we come from or why we think what we think. Play the ball, not the man, and all that.
Oh my. Well, I guess you've never heard about "virtue epistemology." So, forgive if I say that I fully believe that not only should the ball be played, but sometimes the players should be held accountable, just as you seem to be doing here to us Christians.

Actually, what he said was that he wasn't addressing the moral implications in that post - not that this thread should not discuss them. Didn't take us long to get to morality, though; and, as usual, it didn't take you long to throw in the red herring of "you're not allowed to say anything until you've met Philo's standards".
As I've said already to another poster here, once you trip the line by even broaching the subject of slavery, you've already entered into an ethical discussion since it's integral to the ontology of the subject.

Yes to both of those. There is no Communistic chutzpah, you are using simple apologetic tactics. Slavery is endorsed by the Bible, the character "The God of the Bible" does obviously approve of it, and yes, this is a problem for Christians who need to believe that the Bible teaches ethical behaviour.
I wouldn't call what's in the Old Testament an endorsement; I think rather more accurate to call it a "condoning" of slavery until humanity finally recognizes that God's Will is Supreme.

And no, it's not a real problem for Christians who know that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and of Pascal) is Lord of all the earth. On the other hand, it is a problem for those who deny the fact of God's sovereignty and side with Satan. I'm not sure what Satan would like to offer us as an alternative to the social arrangements the Lord allows, but it seems Satan thinks a good dose of atheistic Communism here or a dash of Secularized, Humanized "something else" over there would be better?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, we can weigh the differences between American and Jewish slavery all day and night, but I don't think it matters to the discussion as to whether ancient Jewish slavery is ethically defensible. Obviously the Bible has been used to support all manner of opposing views, but what we really need to figure out is whether it is the intent of the authors of those passages regulating slavery to suggest that the institution as a whole is acceptable. If it is, we can then see if those regulations successfully make the institution acceptable by our commonly-held ethical standards. If they do, we can lay this all to rest. If not, well, you know my conclusion.
Let's be clear here---there is a difference between something being "unacceptable" and something being "unpreferable," and anyone can read the entire Old Testament and see that slavery is placed into the category of "non-preferred social state" by the writers. Moreover, there is a philosophy of "rights" that God establishes that will determine three things, three things that we ignore today because we think we're so darn Enlightened. One is that God is Lord of the Land; Two, our right to the land is conditioned on our obedience to God; Three, our right to freedom is also conditioned on our obedience to God. When we flout these principles, we lose the land and our freedoms since they're contingent, not un-contingent.

It may be lazy if we take one look at those verses and throw the whole thing away, but I'd say it's just as lazy to see those verses and assume that because we don't have the full details, there's probably some sufficient explanation for them being a part of God's rules. If we're not able to get to the bottom of it, is it really socially responsible to shrug it off as an oddity?
I don't in any way shrug it off. So, we can dispense with the idea that some Christians (such as myself) have Willy-Nilly just rushed into accept the biblical political paradigm because we're just so gung-ho to push the bible for our political agendas. There's no shrugging off. If anything, there is a resistance on the part of Skeptics, Atheist, Apostates, and other non-Christians, to engage not only the Bible but the several philosophical political forms of Christian thought that attempt to fill in the gaps that you mentioned remain since "we don't have the full details." As for myself, if you want to get into a deeper discussion here, then please lead the way with your first allegation, OR your first pragmatic principle that you feel is robust enough to stand up to scrutiny so that it can also then serve as a springboard by which to criticize the Bible's apparent 'ethics' (or lack thereof).

Yes, I'm prepared to accept that a pragmatic ethical framework isn't as satisfying or "final" as the monistic idealism of objective morality by divine command, but unfortunately I am of the belief that is more factually defensible.
Well, Ok. Lead the way then, my friend! Let's chat! However, being the Christian Existentialist that I am, I'm of the mind that all of this will just boil down to whose highway we want to choose when we find that human ethics is difficult to substantiate fully in any single direction .....
 
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That's good for me to know. Does this work both ways?
Just kidding. Of course, if I say something mistaken, please feel free to correct me.

Thanks for the additional input, but I've been aware that not many people who live under a Communist regime are, as you said, "technically" Communist themselves. I mean, no one wants to be handed a full barf-bag by a stewardess on an airplane and be told that he's receiving the full meal deal when its obvious it just a bag full of barf. I think the Chinese people have always known this, as did most Russian people did when living under the U.S.S.R., among others, and for those of us in the West such as myself, I think this fact became fairly evident when the Tiananmen Square incident happened about 30 years ago.
and
I kind of figured that, IA.
In that case, I'm puzzled by your implying that my arguments are tainted by Communism.

Oh my. Well, I guess you've never heard about "virtue epistemology." So, forgive if I say that I fully believe that not only should the ball be played, but sometimes the players should be held accountable, just as you seem to be doing here to us Christians.
I hadn't heard of it; but now, having looked it up and seen that it uses "for the evaluation of knowledge the properties of the persons who hold beliefs in addition to or instead of the properties of propositions and beliefs" I suggest that you steer clear of it since, as you've already demonstrated, you don't actually know anything about me as a person, and your attempts to apply virtue epistemology so far have backfired. I recommend that you confine yourself to addressing my arguments, if you are able to.

As I've said already to another poster here, once you trip the line by even broaching the subject of slavery, you've already entered into an ethical discussion since it's integral to the ontology of the subject.
I don't think that ethics really needs to be a focus here. We both agree that slavery is wrong. We just need to address your contradictory attitude to it, which I'll get to in my next post.
 
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It’s an interesting thing in apologetics, and one that is on display in this thread: the arguments on the Christian side are usually very complicated, but the arguments on the nonreligious side are quite simple.
The reason for this is that the arguments from the nonreligious side make sense. The arguments from the Christian side do not, and that’s why they require such a lot of additional explanations to be tacked on to them. The Christians on this particular thread don't seem to be aware of this; they seem to think that what they are doing is taking the trouble to explain a difficult issue in detail. But it’s only a tricky theological problem if you’re a Christian, and their explanations only postpone the problem (this is a useful feature for apologists, however; as the arguments get longer and more complicated, it’s easier for them to hide the contradictions in them).

So: the problem is, if God is a good God, why does He endorse slavery?
On the one side, then, we have the atheist answer. God doesn't exist. The Christian God is just a character in a set of stories from the Bible. The pro-slavery parts of the Bible were written by men who thought that slavery was fine, and they enlisted God to back up their arguments.
As is so often the case, the tricky questions about “Why would God do that?” are easy to answer if you're not a Christian.

If, however, you are a Christian, then you have some explaining to do.
Let’s take a look at some of these explanations that Christians must use to try to resolve this issue.

1. “The Bible doesn't endorse slavery.” I include this for the sake of completeness. Some Christians do say it, but I think at this point in the thread we’ve established that it does.

2. “Slavery as described in the Bible was not all that bad.” Some Christians argue that there were mitigating circumstances. Masters weren’t allowed to actually kill their slaves, for example, or that some slaves entered into servitude of their own free will. This argument can't, of course, be taken seriously. The verses are quite clear. Masters could capture people, keep them against their will, keep their children against their will, and punish them with horrific cruelty if they wished.

3. “This was a form of “progressive revelation” is the other rationalization on display in this thread. Apparently God knew all along that slavery was bad, but He held His hand, allowed it to continue while introducing laws to control its worst excesses, and introducing special messengers such as Jesus to eventually lead to the abolition of slavery through better teachings.
This idea is wrong on many levels.
First of all, if it was God’s intention to end slavery, then He could have just done it. He’s God. The stories in the Bible are quite clear. He can do anything. He flooded the world, he cursed the Egyptians until they freed the Israelites, and if He wanted to stop people from holding slaves, He could have.

Secondly, even if there was some reason that God was unable to free the slaves, why didn’t He at least announce this plan of His? Say “Owning slaves is bad. I understand you don’t realise that yet, but it’s better to not have slavery, and one day you will abolish it, in accordance with My will.” The answer, of course, is that God approves of slavery (the Christian answer, that is, the only one they can honestly give. The atheist answer is that there is no God).

God could have laid down different laws in the Old Testament. Instead of saying “You can punish your slaves as much as they like, as long as it doesn’t actually kill them” how about “You can deprive your slaves of food and water for a certain period, as long as it doesn’t kill them” or “You can assign them extra work to do” or “You can have a system of different tasks, and give disobedient slaves the worst of them” or “You can have rebellious slaves trialled as criminals and sentenced to prison”. Or God could have just written in the Bible “It’s wrong to own people, wrong to make them work against their will, and wrong to punish your slaves”.

God could have done so very many things; and, if He is really God as Christians believe in Him (all-powerful, and the author of morality) then He would have done, just as He did when confronted with other things that He disapproves of. But He didn't.
I can just hear the response now: "Who are you to judge God?" But that's not what I'm doing. All I'm doing is letting the text speak for itself, and pointing out that any other readings of it simply do not make sense.
I understand that this is a problem for Christians who don't want to believe that the Bible is pro-slavery, but you do have a number of options. You could ignore it. You could attempt to rationalise it further (there really is no argument so absurd that an apologist will not use it); or, you could entertain the idea that maybe these conflicts within the Christian religion will make sense if you realise that God is imaginary.
 
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PhantomGaze

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It’s an interesting thing in apologetics, and one that is on display in this thread: the arguments on the Christian side are usually very complicated, but the arguments on the nonreligious side are quite simple.
The reason for this is that the arguments from the nonreligious side make sense. The arguments from the Christian side do not, and that’s why they require such a lot of additional explanations to be tacked on to them.

I couldn't disagree more. If you were to ask someone "why do the tides come in?" and they said "it's like the rise and fall of your chest when you breathe, so the Earth is breathing." That's simple. Then you asked someone else, and they gave a long complicated explanation about how the moon's gravity causes the tides, you might be more inclined to believe the earth is breathing if you're a simple person, because it's more simple, and it fits your experience, so it seems to make sense. The world is a complex place, many simple answers only serve to obscure very complicated truths, we know nature is complicated. Biology is complicated. Physics is complicated. Philosophy is complicated. Insisting on a shallow understanding of life doesn't create any illumination.
 
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