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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Sorry, he does not know what he is talking about.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)
 
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d taylor

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You can not even explain Saul and when he died he went to be with Samuel.

Out of your list only Judas but he was never a believer.

The rest there is not a single verse that supports your claim that the believers lost their eternal life an are now in hell and not in heaven.

I do not say this for you, you are all ready infused in your theology but so you will know i completely reject what you are trying to pass off. And i will not waste any more time on this subject.
 
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You can not even explain Saul and when he died he went to be with Samuel.

Out of your list only Judas but he was never a believer.

The rest there is not a single verse that supports your claim that the believers lost their eternal life an are now in hell and not in heaven.

I do not say this for you, you are all ready infused in your theology but so you will know i completely reject what you are trying to pass off. And i will not waste any more time on this subject.

You are mistaken about Saul.

“But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee” (2 Samuel 7:15).

Also, suicide is basically self murder. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Saul committed suicide or self murder. So no. He was clearly not saved in the end.
 
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Oldmantook

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In other words, when Jesus said the words "new covenant," He was saying in that moment that He has made the first covenant old, and that covenant which was decaying, and waxes old was going to be ready to vanish away at Christ's death the next day. The temple veil was torn. The new covenant officially began with His death. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We are under a new covenant and a new priesthood. New laws. It's not the Old Covenant anymore.
The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant which improved upon it. Your claim that it vanished at Christ's death is not supported. For example I can buy a new car this year and next year the auto manufacturer comes out with a new model with improvements to my now old model. My old model which I still possess did not vanish but was improved upon. Under the old covenant a person could be found guilty of physical adultery but under the new covenant he could be found not only guilty of physical adultery which still applies, but spiritual adultery as well.

Paul was speaking sarcastically. He was saying if you are going to keep circumcision, you gotta keep all of the Law (Which is not possible under the New Covenant).

The precepts that the uncircumcised kept were certain aspects of Moral Law like: Do not murder, do not steal, etc. One could go to prison back then for murdering and stealing, etc.
That's true as Paul was making a point however the keeping of the moral law is now made possible by the indwelling Spirit. Paul's point to the Jews was that a physically uncircumcised gentile can keep the precepts of the law because of the indwelling Spirit is accounted as spiritually circumcised whereas a Jew who is physically circumcised but cannot keep the moral law - his circumcision counts as uncircumcision. The point here is that the moral law never "vanished."

I already made my case before. The ordinances are the sabbath days, etc. The ordinances were nailed to the cross. This is why verse 16 says we are not to judge according to holy days, etc. It is because they are no longer binding under the New Covenant as a requirement to keep. But I am not going to endless debate over the Old Law with you. The Bible tells me not to do that. Only God can reveal the truth to you on Colossians 2.
I cited a link which if you read it, you did not bother to give your counter reply to. It explained what the "ordinances" were - which is not the Law as you claim.

He says "establishes the Law" and not upholds it. Two different things there. Establishing something is saying that they are in support of it being their necessary foundation at one time to lead them to Christ and His teachings. Many of the teachings of the Law are directly opposed to the teachings of Jesus. You cannot obey both. It would be a contradiction. A person believing that they can obey both covenants would place them into a state of cognitive dissonance.
The old and new covenants never contradict one another as the later builds upon the foundation of the former. That is why Jesus himself proclaimed that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

....but this would be past sin only and not future sin; And it is conditioned upon confession of sin and continued obedience and faithfulness to the Lord.
Yes, only our past sins are remitted at the point of our being born again (Rom 3:25). When we were made alive in Christ, our past transgressions were nailed to the cross by the atonement. The law was not nailed to the cross.

No. The ordinances is defined by the context (Which is the sabbath days, etc.). That is what it is talking about in context. Plus, the word "ordinances" is repeated used in the OT in reference to God's festivals, etc. (Which is the topic of discussion in verse 16). Sorry. It just seems like you are fighting against the text here and you are trying to do gymnastic flips around it. I think it is best that you pray to the Lord to ask you to show you what it plainly says (instead of what you prefer it to say).
Nope, if so why did Jesus observe the festivals and Sabbaths. Why did the Apostles and their disciples continue to observe the Sabbaths and the festivals even after Jesus' death. Your view does not fit with the text nor NT history.

The purpose of not touching dead bodies in the Old was primarily a spiritual thing and it was showing obedience to God. Sanitary issues aside, ultimately, the touching of dead bodies is Old Covenant; And not New Covenant.
If so, why was isolation and ritual washing necessary after touching a dead body? It was a spiritual issue AND a sanitary issue. But on this particular issue, I'm undecided if it has new covenant implications.

Sorry. I didn't write the dictionary. Moral Laws are generally laws that are instinctive in nature without anyone specifically telling us about those laws. The Sabbath is not a moral law in this way. It is learned by the Scriptures or men of God who know of the Scriptures. But the New Covenant in no way commands it and it actually says we are not to judge anyone according to Sabbaths anymore. Back in the OT, you sure could judge someone for not keeping the Sabbath. A man died for collecting sticks on the Sabbath. This is not the case today.
Moral laws are not instinctual. The enemies of Israel had no instincts or respect for the moral laws of God. The Sabbath Command is part of the 10 Commandments which are moral laws. They are moral because God commands us to either do certain things or not to do certain things and not because we feel like it is the right thing to do or not do.

You are saying that it is needful to keep the Law of Moses.

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).
You neglected to also cite Acts 15:21 where James provides his reasoning for stipulating these requirements. In v.21 he states that the law of Moses is read at every Sabbath and in every synagogue. In other words, James stipulated the minimum requirements necessary for the gentiles who were coming to faith in God so as to not initially burden/overwhelm them but as they continued to learn at every Sabbath and in every Synagogue where Moses is preached they would understand the law better.

Paul also says that if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. This obviously cannot refer to all law in general because 1 John 3:23 is a law or command that tells us to believe in Jesus under the New Covenant. So Paul must be referring to the Old Law.
In its context:
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Paul was specifically referring to being justified by the old law of physical circumcision which under the new covenant is a spiritual circumcision of the heart. I don't believe that Christians are required to submit to circumcision because the spiritual aspect of circumcision under the new covenant supersedes circumcision of the flesh.
 
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sungaunga

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Paul tells us we are justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Gal 2:16 Let us not confuse working out our salvation vs working for our salvation. Take your pick, Islam, Catholicism, Mormonism, all the worlds religion is work based. Only Christianity stands apart offering salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ. If you believe you are saved by your works, you are lost.

Make no mistake. If we love Jesus, we will obey Him. Spurgeon once said, “Although we are sure that men are not saved for the sake of their works, yet we are equally sure that no man will be saved without them.” So called faith in God that refuses obedience is pure and simple unbelief.
 
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Brent Karding

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We may call it "the next step in the salvation process, " but the persons salvation is not dependent upon the works performed. These are merely the natural consequence of having Faith.
Exactly! And that natural consequence always takes place, or there is no saving faith. We must be careful not to mix faith and works, or separate them. I talk about that more here.
 
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Exactly! And that natural consequence always takes place, or there is no saving faith. We must be careful not to mix faith and works, or separate them. I talk about that more here.

If you believe works is always the result of a true faith, then you believe in the necessity of works as a part of the salvation equation. Works circle back to pointing to grace. I agree that works flow out of grace and works cannot flow without God's grace through faith in Christ. The problem is that you believe in a contradiction and you don't even realize it.

On the one hand you are saying works have to be there to show that Faith is true or that one has truly been saved. Yet, on the other hand you contradict this by saying that works do not save. But if works do not save, then you do not need any kind of works at all to be saved and you can just believe and have no works and be saved. Therein lies the contradiction in your belief, my friend.

Even if you believe works do not save in and of themselves alone, the fact that they need to be there as a part of showing a true saving faith in Christ proves that works are required as a part of salvation. For surely you believe faith without works is dead, right?
 
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Paul tells us we are justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Gal 2:16 Let us not confuse working out our salvation vs working for our salvation. Take your pick, Islam, Catholicism, Mormonism, all the worlds religion is work based. Only Christianity stands apart offering salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ. If you believe you are saved by your works, you are lost.

Make no mistake. If we love Jesus, we will obey Him. Spurgeon once said, “Although we are sure that men are not saved for the sake of their works, yet we are equally sure that no man will be saved without them.” So called faith in God that refuses obedience is pure and simple unbelief.

Right, the works of the Law of Moses. That's the context of the kind of work Paul is talking about. For Paul is talking about "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Galatians 2:3). Then read read Galatians 5:2, and then read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Paul is not talking about the commands that come from Jesus (and His followers), and or the necessity of Sanctification (or living holy by God living in them and doing the good work) as a part of eternal life here. He talks about that in Romans 8:3-4, Romans 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Titus 1:16.
 
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Albion

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If you believe works is always the result of a true faith, then you believe in the necessity of works as a part of the salvation equation.
No. That is untrue...and illogical. Even if we have taken care to use the word equation in order to have some wiggle-room. ;)
 
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No. That is untrue...and illogical. Even if we have taken care to use the word equation in order to have some wiggle-room. ;)

Then explain it to me in how it works.
Right, now it is a contradiction.
If you believe works will always follow a true saving faith by God's grace, then that is saying that works are essential to salvation. If not, then one does not need to have works later in their life to prove that they are saved. One can live in sin, and be fruitless for God and be saved by Faith Alone. No works should be required. None. Zero. Well, that is if you truly believe works are not necessary in any way to show that salvation is true.
 
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The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant which improved upon it. Your claim that it vanished at Christ's death is not supported. For example I can buy a new car this year and next year the auto manufacturer comes out with a new model with improvements to my now old model. My old model which I still possess did not vanish but was improved upon. Under the old covenant a person could be found guilty of physical adultery but under the new covenant he could be found not only guilty of physical adultery which still applies, but spiritual adultery as well.


That's true as Paul was making a point however the keeping of the moral law is now made possible by the indwelling Spirit. Paul's point to the Jews was that a physically uncircumcised gentile can keep the precepts of the law because of the indwelling Spirit is accounted as spiritually circumcised whereas a Jew who is physically circumcised but cannot keep the moral law - his circumcision counts as uncircumcision. The point here is that the moral law never "vanished."


I cited a link which if you read it, you did not bother to give your counter reply to. It explained what the "ordinances" were - which is not the Law as you claim.


The old and new covenants never contradict one another as the later builds upon the foundation of the former. That is why Jesus himself proclaimed that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.


Yes, only our past sins are remitted at the point of our being born again (Rom 3:25). When we were made alive in Christ, our past transgressions were nailed to the cross by the atonement. The law was not nailed to the cross.


Nope, if so why did Jesus observe the festivals and Sabbaths. Why did the Apostles and their disciples continue to observe the Sabbaths and the festivals even after Jesus' death. Your view does not fit with the text nor NT history.


If so, why was isolation and ritual washing necessary after touching a dead body? It was a spiritual issue AND a sanitary issue. But on this particular issue, I'm undecided if it has new covenant implications.


Moral laws are not instinctual. The enemies of Israel had no instincts or respect for the moral laws of God. The Sabbath Command is part of the 10 Commandments which are moral laws. They are moral because God commands us to either do certain things or not to do certain things and not because we feel like it is the right thing to do or not do.


You neglected to also cite Acts 15:21 where James provides his reasoning for stipulating these requirements. In v.21 he states that the law of Moses is read at every Sabbath and in every synagogue. In other words, James stipulated the minimum requirements necessary for the gentiles who were coming to faith in God so as to not initially burden/overwhelm them but as they continued to learn at every Sabbath and in every Synagogue where Moses is preached they would understand the law better.


In its context:
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Paul was specifically referring to being justified by the old law of physical circumcision which under the new covenant is a spiritual circumcision of the heart. I don't believe that Christians are required to submit to circumcision because the spiritual aspect of circumcision under the new covenant supersedes circumcision of the flesh.

Not true.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily was taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).

______________________________________________________________
Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
______________________________________________________________

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

______________________________________________________________

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

______________________________________________________________

The Old Way says:

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

______________________________________________________________

The Old Way says:

"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

______________________________________________________________

The Old Way says:

20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?"
(John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

______________________________________________________________

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

______________________________________________________________

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

______________________________________________________________

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).
 
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Albion

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Then explain it to me in how it works.
Faith alone saves. No other component is responsible for saving us. However, faith--if it is to be faith--will have works as a characteristic. Faith by its nature produces them. If not, then we know that it is a claimed faith but not real faith.
 
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Brent Karding

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If you believe works is always the result of a true faith, then you believe in the necessity of works as a part of the salvation equation. Works circle back to pointing to grace. I agree that works flow out of grace and works cannot flow without God's grace through faith in Christ. The problem is that you believe in a contradiction and you don't even realize it.

On the one hand you are saying works have to be there to show that Faith is true or that one has truly been saved. Yet, on the other hand you contradict this by saying that works do not save. But if works do not save, then you do not need any kind of works at all to be saved and you can just believe and have no works and be saved. Therein lies the contradiction in your belief, my friend.

Even if you believe works do not save in and of themselves alone, the fact that they need to be there as a part of showing a true saving faith in Christ proves that works are required as a part of salvation. For surely you believe faith without works is dead, right?

Saying that works are an inevitable result of saving faith is not the same thing as saying that works are a requirementfor saving faith (“part of the salvation equation,” as you put it). Saving faith is inevitably followed by works because that is the nature of saving faith. If you combine two molecules of hydrogen to one molecule of oxygen, the inevitable result is water. But that doesn’t mean that water is a requirement for making H2O! That is backwards! But if you put molecules of hydrogen and oxygen together in the right quantity, you have water - that is a law of nature. And saving faith produces the fruit of obedience to God called “works.”

That is also what Ephesians 2:10 says: We are “created in Christ Jesus for good works,” works that God “prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” All believers, Paul is saying, were saved for the purpose of good works, which God has foreordained for their lives. So if someone calls himself a believer, but is not living in good works, one of two things is true: either he is a liar about his faith, or God is a liar about his preparation of good works for all believers.

There’s no contradiction here at all! God says, on the one hand, that salvation is “not a result of works” (Eph 2:9), and, on the other hand, that "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17) - that is, “useless” (James 2:20). Is that a contradiction? Because that’s what I believe, as plainly shown in Scripture.
 
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Albion

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Saying that works are an inevitable result of saving faith is not the same thing as saying that works are a requirement for saving faith (“part of the salvation equation,” as you put it). Saving faith is inevitably followed by works because that is the nature of saving faith. If you combine two molecules of hydrogen to one molecule of oxygen, the inevitable result is water. But that doesn’t mean that water is a requirement for making H2O!
:oldthumbsup:
 
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Saying that works are an inevitable result of saving faith is not the same thing as saying that works are a requirementfor saving faith (“part of the salvation equation,” as you put it). Saving faith is inevitably followed by works because that is the nature of saving faith. If you combine two molecules of hydrogen to one molecule of oxygen, the inevitable result is water. But that doesn’t mean that water is a requirement for making H2O! That is backwards! But if you put molecules of hydrogen and oxygen together in the right quantity, you have water - that is a law of nature. And saving faith produces the fruit of obedience to God called “works.”

That is also what Ephesians 2:10 says: We are “created in Christ Jesus for good works,” works that God “prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” All believers, Paul is saying, were saved for the purpose of good works, which God has foreordained for their lives. So if someone calls himself a believer, but is not living in good works, one of two things is true: either he is a liar about his faith, or God is a liar about his preparation of good works for all believers.

Again, if salvation is not in any way related to works, then it would not be tied to Faith Alone (That is salvation). So seeing works is connected to the primary hub of Faith Alone (that is salvation) and works are the proof that shows a genuine saving faith, then works are an important key component of salvation.

There’s no contradiction here at all! God says, on the one hand, that salvation is “not a result of works” (Eph 2:9), and, on the other hand, that "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17) - that is, “useless” (James 2:20). Is that a contradiction? Because that’s what I believe, as plainly shown in Scripture.

One cannot have Sanctification without it flowing out of Justification. Both are tied and related to each other. While they are both unique process, both deal with salvation (even if you say Sanctification does not play a part in our salvation) because you say that Sanctification will be a result of Justification. Either way you slice it, Sanctification is a part of salvation in some way. For you yourself had said that a true faith is shown true by it's works (Which proves works are necessary as a part of the salvation equation).

Also, while there are examples that one can make in relation to Cause and Effect that show that they are not exactly the same, there are examples of Cause and Effect that do show that they can be the same, too. For example: Floods happen as a result of rain water. The flood itself is merely pooled up Rain Water. But it is still Rain Water. So if salvation is the Cause, and works are the Effect, then you cannot eliminate the works aspect and say it is unrelated to the Cause.
 
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Faith alone saves. No other component is responsible for saving us. However, faith--if it is to be faith--will have works as a characteristic. Faith by its nature produces them. If not, then we know that it is a claimed faith but not real faith.

But James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
This is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Paul is talking about Justification or Initial Salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5.
James is talking about Sanctification in James 2.
 
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We agree. But it doesn't change anything. We made the same point in our own posts.

We don't agree. You believe they are connected in regards to salvation, but then you contradict yourself and say that the second component is not tied to salvation. Even if the second component is not for salvation (Which is not what the Bible teaches), good works would still be for salvation because they are the proof in the pudding to show that one's saving faith is genuine.
 
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But James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
Yes, of course. He is saying that if the Faith that some person tells him about is real (as was the case with many people he encountered), it will produce good works. Therefore, if it does not, we know that it is just a claim, just talk. The evidence of it being real is missing.

We also made that point ourselves.

I have checked just about every Bible commentary on James 2:24 that I can find, and they all say what I have been saying. Here is one of them, taken from Bibleref.com--

It's important to remember two things, however. First, James is not claiming works are required for salvation. His entire argument has been about what kind of faith actually saves. He is on the attack against the attitude that one can be saved by a faith that has no works. He has stated repeatedly that such a faith is dead, useless. He is not saying that faith is not the means through which we receive God's grace; he is saying that a so-called-"faith" which results in no actions is not a genuine faith. A "works-less" faith cannot justify anyone.
 
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Yes, of course. He is saying that if the Faith that some person tells him about is real (as was the case with many people he encountered), it will produce good works. Therefore, if it does not, we know that it is just a claim, just talk. The evidence of it being real is missing.

We also made that point ourselves.

So then works do play a part in the salvation process.
For if they do not play a part in the salvation process, then that means one can have NO works later in their life and be saved.

Again, folks here are believing a circular contradiction.
You cannot have water without the previous components that make up water.
Anymore than you can have a saving faith without works.
So if this is so, then works play a part in our salvation to show that our faith is genuine. So salvation involves works.
 
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