LDS Mormons, who is Heavenly Father?

Rescued One

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You said "nor Holy Spirit/Ghost dwell in humans according to Mormonism" I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is wrong. The Holy Ghost can dwell in us:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:22)
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

I've quoted that verse several times. It is Mormonism that's inconsistent and wrong.

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Chapter 7: The Holy Ghost

 
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mmksparbud

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Ha! Ha! I've quoted that verse several times. It is Mormonism that's inconsistent and wrong.

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Chapter 7: The Holy Ghost


In only one place at a time??!!! How in the world do they explain how the Holy Spirit can be with someone in China and someone in South America at the same time? Not only is their God weak and ineffectual (He can't create from nothing) but their Holy Spirit is also very limited. They can't see that the Holy Spirit is everywhere?
 
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Rescued One

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In only one place at a time??!!! How in the world do they explain how the Holy Spirit can be with someone in China and someone in South America at the same time? Not only is their God weak and ineffectual (He can't create from nothing) but their Holy Spirit is also very limited. They can't see that the Holy Spirit is everywhere?

They don't believe that spirits can be omnipresent. A spirit is in the form of a person without flesh and bones.

If you read that again, the Holy Ghost's influence can be everywhere.
 
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mmksparbud

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They don't believe that spirits can be omnipresent. A spirit is in the form of a person without flesh and bones.

If you read that again, the Holy Ghost's influence can be everywhere.

Influence?? How does that work?
 
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Rescued One

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Influence?? How does that work?

He can guide LDS people all over the world at the same time, but they have to remain worthy or he'll withdraw his influence from the unworthy ones.

Christian Tiny Bible.gif John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
 
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Rescued One

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What do spirits look like?

People’s spirits had an adult form in premortal life and will have that same form in the spirit world, even if they die as infants or children.
See Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith (1998), 131–32.
What Happens After We Die?

Joseph Fielding Smith Sr. was an American religious leader who served as the sixth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was the nephew of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, and was the last president of the LDS Church to have known him personally. Wikipedia
 
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mmksparbud

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He can guide LDS people all over the world at the same time, but they have to remain worthy or he'll withdraw his influence from the unworthy ones.

View attachment 253869 John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


But He can't be in more than one place at a time---that makes no sense! And certainly goes against what the bible says.
 
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dzheremi

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"Influence" is such a weird word to use in this context. Christ Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. "Influence" seems like a step down from that, to put it lightly. For instance, if the Holy Spirit only "influenced" the writing of the NT, rather than guided the apostles in writing it, it seems to put Him on equal footing with any number of other influences that can be traced in the NT writings (preexisting Hellenistic philosophy, apocryphal OT writings, etc.), rather than...y'know...being God, as we have always affirmed He is.

I doubt that many faithful Mormons would even relegate their own flesh-and-blood leaders in that way. Do they say, for instance, that their current prophet merely 'influences' the direction of their church or its members, or is he held up as the "prophet, seer, and revelator" of it? Maybe Russel M. Nelson is one of their religion's many gods. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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He is the way

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I've quoted that verse several times. It is Mormonism that's inconsistent and wrong.

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Chapter 7: The Holy Ghost
You said "He can be in only one place at a time" Why do you make this claim? D&C 130:22 does not say this. Do you need to read it again?
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:22)

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

You also quoted:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 20:28)

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in nature and purpose and we can become one with them:
(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 
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He is the way

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"Influence" is such a weird word to use in this context. Christ Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. "Influence" seems like a step down from that, to put it lightly. For instance, if the Holy Spirit only "influenced" the writing of the NT, rather than guided the apostles in writing it, it seems to put Him on equal footing with any number of other influences that can be traced in the NT writings (preexisting Hellenistic philosophy, apocryphal OT writings, etc.), rather than...y'know...being God, as we have always affirmed He is.

I doubt that many faithful Mormons would even relegate their own flesh-and-blood leaders in that way. Do they say, for instance, that their current prophet merely 'influences' the direction of their church or its members, or is he held up as the "prophet, seer, and revelator" of it? Maybe Russel M. Nelson is one of their religion's many gods. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Russel M. Nelson is a prophet of God. We do not worship him and he is not our Father, but God the Father is our Father and God. Why would you say "Maybe Russel M. Nelson is one of their religion's many gods." Even Paul was looking forward to being called to the position of God, but was not called to that position while he was on earth. He said:

(New Testament | Philippians 3:13 - 15)

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

When Paul receives his prize of the high calling of God, he will still not be our God and Father. He will be God and Father to his spirit children. I know that at this time you are otherwise minded so perhaps eventually God shall reveal even this to you when you are ready to accept it. Paul already accepted it.
 
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He is the way

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Neither am I a Mormon, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who have the nickname of Mormon because of the book by the same name. Unfortunately CF does not have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as an option when I joined. As far as I know they still don't. We worship God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ who is Lord to the glory of the Father:
(New Testament | Philippians 2:11)

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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dzheremi

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Neither am I a Mormon, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who have the nickname of Mormon because of the book by the same name. Unfortunately CF does not have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as an option when I joined. As far as I know they still don't. We worship God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ who is Lord to the glory of the Father:
(New Testament | Philippians 2:11)

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As much as I can sympathize with the Mormon position that they should like people to call them something other than what they are most often called (cf. "monophysite" for my community, despite the fact that this is a misstatement of our actual Christological position), you still are, in fact, a Mormon. I am aware that your leader's most recent push for name change is being claimed to be revelation rather than re-branding (or at least that's how it is being reported in even the non-Mormon mainstream media), and I can respect that this is how you guys feel it is coming to be, but then to ask the rest of the world to rename your religion accordingly is essentially asking the many billions of non-Mormons around the world to accept that this is in fact a true revelation.

And I'm not going to do that. And most non-Mormons aren't going to do that. It's really not a matter of courtesy, even; I simply do not want to even peripherally participate in or validate the Mormon religious system that says this 'revelation' that I don't even believe happened is true and means I need to change what I call you guys for fear of angering 'god', who I additionally do not believe that you guys either follow or believe in.

So no. You're Mormons and will always be Mormons, unless you leave that religion for something else.
 
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Rescued One

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Neither am I a Mormon, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who have the nickname of Mormon because of the book by the same name. Unfortunately CF does not have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as an option when I joined. As far as I know they still don't. We worship God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ who is Lord to the glory of the Father:
(New Testament | Philippians 2:11)

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes, we know that you are no longer obedient to your current prophet, if you call yourself a Mormon. I was sent this book before I was baptized into your church:

LDS What Of The Mormons.jpg

This design is on my sister's headstone:
Mormon Military Headstone.jpg
I bought this record album in the seventies:
Mormon Tabernacle Choir The Holly and The Ivy.jpg
 
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Peter1000

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"Influence" is such a weird word to use in this context. Christ Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. "Influence" seems like a step down from that, to put it lightly. For instance, if the Holy Spirit only "influenced" the writing of the NT, rather than guided the apostles in writing it, it seems to put Him on equal footing with any number of other influences that can be traced in the NT writings (preexisting Hellenistic philosophy, apocryphal OT writings, etc.), rather than...y'know...being God, as we have always affirmed He is.

I doubt that many faithful Mormons would even relegate their own flesh-and-blood leaders in that way. Do they say, for instance, that their current prophet merely 'influences' the direction of their church or its members, or is he held up as the "prophet, seer, and revelator" of it? Maybe Russel M. Nelson is one of their religion's many gods. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You shouldnt say things like "influence" is such a weird word. You are aware of the strange, unbiblical words that you use to describe God and Jesus, such as "essence", "consubstantial", homoousios, "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, but they are not 3 Gods, but 1 God in 3 Persons".

I would like you to explain how the Holy Spirit can dwell in all persons around the world, at the same time?
Give it a try. You guys like to get down to the molecular level of things. I look forward to hearing about this.
 
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Peter1000

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Yes, we know that you are no longer obedient to your current prophet, if you call yourself a Mormon. I was sent this book before I was baptized into your church:

View attachment 253893

This design is on my sister's headstone:
View attachment 253892
I bought this record album in the seventies:
View attachment 253894
That's all fine.

But if you were praying to God one day and he told you to wear only 1 pierced earring on each ear. Now, if you were wearing 2 different pierced earrings on each ear at the time, what would you do?

If you knew that Jesus was not pleased that his name was bypassed most of the time someone referred to his church, what would you do?
 
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Peter1000

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As much as I can sympathize with the Mormon position that they should like people to call them something other than what they are most often called (cf. "monophysite" for my community, despite the fact that this is a misstatement of our actual Christological position), you still are, in fact, a Mormon. I am aware that your leader's most recent push for name change is being claimed to be revelation rather than re-branding (or at least that's how it is being reported in even the non-Mormon mainstream media), and I can respect that this is how you guys feel it is coming to be, but then to ask the rest of the world to rename your religion accordingly is essentially asking the many billions of non-Mormons around the world to accept that this is in fact a true revelation.

And I'm not going to do that. And most non-Mormons aren't going to do that. It's really not a matter of courtesy, even; I simply do not want to even peripherally participate in or validate the Mormon religious system that says this 'revelation' that I don't even believe happened is true and means I need to change what I call you guys for fear of angering 'god', who I additionally do not believe that you guys either follow or believe in.

So no. You're Mormons and will always be Mormons, unless you leave that religion for something else.
Your right, that is why I do not call you the Monophysites. It is out of respect, not that I would participate in any way in helping you think you are the true church, but out of respect for your church and you.

It is difficult to use The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all the time, so most of the time I use The Church of Jesus Christ.

I would not expect you to stop using Mormon, but I would not expect such an attitude of not wanting to even peripherally participate in or validate the Mormon religious system, by calling them by their real name. That goes a little towards stubborn, arrogant, ignorance.
 
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dzheremi

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Your right, that is why I do not call you the Monophysites. It is out of respect, not that I would participate in any way in helping you think you are the true church, but out of respect for your church and you.

I appreciate it, Peter, but my point is that it is not a matter of respect (or for that matter lack thereof) that I would continue to call Mormons Mormons; it is because your leadership has insisted that this name change is a matter of revelation that they have have received, and I don't believe that revelation comes to the leaders of your religion to begin with, so obviously I'm not going to behave as though I do by abiding by a revelation that I do not believe actually happened.

It is difficult to use The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all the time, so most of the time I use The Church of Jesus Christ.

That seems like a reasonable choice for you.

I would not expect you to stop using Mormon, but I would not expect such an attitude of not wanting to even peripherally participate in or validate the Mormon religious system, by calling them by their real name. That goes a little towards stubborn, arrogant, ignorance.

You can call it whatever you'd like. It's the same way that I don't call the Roman Catholic Church "Holy Mother Church" as the Roman Catholics do: I'm not a Roman Catholic, so I don't have that view of their Church. It is not my mother, nor the mother of all Christians, as they likewise believe of their Church.

It's the same way that I won't call Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, "Prophet Muhammad" with no further qualifier (e.g., "Islamic", "of Islam", "false", etc.), since he's not a prophet recognized by any Christian, and I am a Christian, not a Muslim. So "Islamic prophet" will do, just as "Mormon" will do.

If it's arrogant to not use language that represents a worldview (an ecclesiology, theology, or what have you) that I do not actually have, then I guess I am arrogant. I obviously do not see it that way,

Again, it's not a matter of respect. I call those you call Elders'Elder' so as to signify their place in your religion (e.g., Elder Stephenson, Elder Holland, etc.), as a matter of respect. But I stop short at affirming any particular 'revelation' they should say they've received. To me that's beyond respect; that's participation. That's saying "Yes, I recognize your revelation and will adjust my language accordingly." Well I don't, so I won't.
 
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Rescued One

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You shouldnt say things like "influence" is such a weird word. You are aware of the strange, unbiblical words that you use to describe God and Jesus, such as "essence", "consubstantial", homoousios, "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, but they are not 3 Gods, but 1 God in 3 Persons".

I would like you to explain how the Holy Spirit can dwell in all persons around the world, at the same time?
Give it a try. You guys like to get down to the molecular level of things. I look forward to hearing about this.

He dwells in those He has regenerated. Why can't He?

omnipresent not ubiquitous:
(of God) present everywhere at the same time.

"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jeremiah 23: 23-24

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else!" Deuteronomy 4:39

The Holy Spirit is everywhere, but He especially helps believers.
 
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