Mary and Joseph

Monk Brendan

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Yep. But what does he have to do with me? He also believed in infant baptism, which I believe was part of his leaning toward Romish beliefs (as some Reformed traditions still teach).
Why do ancient Christian churches that had nothing to do with Rome practice infant baptism, then?
 
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Justified112

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Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

Is this accurate? Is it what church tradition says? Does anyone here find it a little creepy?
The idea that Joseph was a far older man than Mary is meant to support RCC tradition that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born, that she and Joseph never had marital relations and Jesus' brothers and sisters mentioned in the Gospels were either cousins, or they were children that were the product of Joseph and a previous wife, which explains why he would be older than Mary.

It is not at all biblical and thus not accurate.
 
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Justified112

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She had children with her husband so that means she lost her virginity.
Yes, that is true. Mary and Joseph would have naturally had children. Mary was not exalted then like she is now and there is nothing about having children that would have defiled her. The RCC and EO have it wrong.
 
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Justified112

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I don't know, some will say that Joseph was previously married and thus was much older than Mary who remained a virgin from her youth for the rest of her life. There are strong arguments for this, I admit, but I am beginning to question it again. I am beginning to think that Mary and Joseph were both young, and never known a person prior.
How is that a strong argument? It is pure fabrication, made up out of whole cloth.
 
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Truth Lover

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There is no record of Mary and Joseph having biological children together. The gospels mention "brothers" and "sisters" of Jesus. Tradition has it that those were children of Joseph from a previous marriage. While the Protoevangelion of James is non-canonical, it does support the Church's teaching that Mary had no further children after Jesus. James was written early to mid first century, and by someone familiar with the gospels. Had the early Church believed Mary to have had other children it would not have been written as it was.

Some say Matthew 13:55 "Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" is a proof text that proves Mary did not remain a virgin after Jesus' birth.

Elsewhere in the Gospels James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas are listed as sons of men other than Joseph, husband of Mary. Matthew 4:21, Matthew 16:17, Matthew 10:2, John 13:2
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Some say Matthew 13:55 "Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" is a proof text that proves Mary did not remain a virgin after Jesus' birth.

Elsewhere in the Gospels James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas are listed as sons of men other than Joseph, husband of Mary. Matthew 4:21, Matthew 16:17, Matthew 10:2, John 13:2
You're suggesting Mary was sleeping around?
 
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All4Christ

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So you don't have an actual citation to share then. Interesting that. Somewhat nullifies your claim.
Luther:

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
 
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All4Christ

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Zwingli:

I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)
 
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All4Christ

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Some other quotes from Luther on Mary:

Christ, ..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).

He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb.. .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. (Ibid.)

God says... "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (Ibid.).

God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs. . .just as your son is not two sons...even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone. (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).
 
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All4Christ

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This notion of some special adoptive marriage, which the Orthodox claim is unsupported by real history.
Which the early church, ecumenical councils, Eastern Orthodox, Western Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Eastern & Oriental Catholic, Old Catholic, early reformers, many Lutherans and Anglicans, etc, claim.
 
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PaulCyp1

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Yes, Mary is believed to have been about 15, which was the normal age for marriage or betrothal in that time and place. Betrothal was not the same thing as marriage. A young woman who had no means of support other than her parents would become betrothed to an older man. She would provide household services, while he would provide shelter, meals, and other basic needs.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Some say Matthew 13:55 "Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" is a proof text that proves Mary did not remain a virgin after Jesus' birth.

Elsewhere in the Gospels James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas are listed as sons of men other than Joseph, husband of Mary. Matthew 4:21, Matthew 16:17, Matthew 10:2, John 13:2

There were multiple apostles with the same names.
 
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Jonaitis

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Why do ancient Christian churches that had nothing to do with Rome practice infant baptism, then?

Why ask me when you know what my answer will be? Extrabiblical tradition that did not find a solid place to set her foot.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Why ask me when you know what my answer will be? Extrabiblical tradition that did not find a solid place to set her foot.
Did you know that having your own copy of the Bible is an extrabiblical tradition?

So is using hymnals and pews.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Yes, they were. They would have been Jesus' half brothers and sisters technically since Jesus was not fathered by Joseph.
They were not.

There was not a word in Aramaic, Hebrew, or koine Greek for "half siblings."
 
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