Were Adam and Eve really deceived?

royal priest

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In the story, the only command is "don't eat the fruit from that tree". There were no other commands and additionally, no knowledge of good and evil to evaluate their own hearts. There is no talk of pride, vanity, etc. Those aren't yet part of the story until trust is broken by the act of distrust: eating the fruit.
I wonder if the Apostle John made an intentional parralel when he wrote---
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world
---with Genesis 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.
 
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Ing Bee

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I wonder if the Apostle John made an intentional parralel when he wrote---
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world
---with Genesis 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

I think you may have something there. We know John has referenced Genesis before (John 1:1) and the disciples of Jesus are steeped in the TaNaKh.
 
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bling

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A fair amount of Christians say that Adam and Eve ate the fruit God commanded them not to eat because Satan deceived them into believing it was good for them and would make them like God. Many Christians say that because they didn't know better they were easily decieved.

Here's the sticking point, Adam and Eve had a fair choice to obey or disobey. They had all the evidence they needed of God's goodness and loving care for them. Until that point, they never experienced evil and were well provided for by God. Yet they chose to listen and believe a serpent that they had just met over the word and command of someone they had a close relationship to and provided for their every need for some time. I don't think they were deceived in the way that we know deception. I think they actually knew better and knew what was the right choice and what was the wrong choice. And they chose poorly based on all the evidence they had of God's goodness. And we make similar mistakes and choices all the time as sinners, despite our knowledge of the goodness of God.

It opens up a whole load of questions as a result.

Were they really deceived or were they just given an opportunity to fail?
If they had passed this test would they have failed another?
How much of our poor decision making and disobedience is the result of actual deception by Satan or our own evil hearts?
Were Adam and Eve actually considered perfect and holy before the Fall or just something close to it?


Adam and Eve’s first sin is not described in scripture as a “fall” and is a transition.

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your first sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Adam and Eve did obtain additional “knowledge” that was passed down to all of us in the form of a conscience, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

This world as it exists right now is the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective, while as we learn from the Adam and Eve story the Garden is a lousy (impossible) place to fulfill our earthly objective. We can thus be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through that situation and allowing us to learn from them. Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not fulfill their earthly objective in what we might consider an ideal situation.

Here is the question:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Man just cannot by man’s own power continue forever in obedience and that is what our best all human representatives (Adam and Eve) showed us early on in their story.

Yes, lots of things were “cursed” by God to provide limited resources, pain, death, and hardship, but these things also helped humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God made Adam and Eve as He describes “very good” but that is not perfect. Christ was perfect but Christ was not a created being and always had Godly type Love. We on the other hand have to obtain Godly type Love, but remember we just cannot be created with this Love.

God is doing all He can to help us choose His Love over selfish love, but it has to be a real choice (no gun to the head).

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).


What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?



Again there are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

That is an introduction to a huge topic.
 
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akaDaScribe

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I agree. But i still think it is jacked up the way it was done.

In all of the infinite ways it could have been done He chose pain, punishment curses and blessings.

You are correct. God has access to infinite possibilities and yet he chose the current reality we experience. You can either assume he made a dumb decision, or assume he knows what he's doing.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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You are correct. God has access to infinite possibilities and yet he chose the current reality we experience. You can either assume he made a dumb decision, or assume he knows what he's doing.

I assume He is spot on...doesnt mean i think it is kind, just or fair. I honestly find only one love in it...Jesus sacrificing Himself...the rest i find devoid of love.
 
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Ing Bee

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Hi Bling-
A few responses:
You said:
Adam and Eve’s first sin is not described in scripture as a “fall” and is a transition.

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your first sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Yes, you're correct about the term "the fall". We came up with that word. It's not in the Bible. It may not be wrong but it may create confusion.

However, calling what happened in the garden a "transition" is actually a doctrine of the Mormon church and has never been taught in historic Christianity. Paul is clear that death (not a good thing) entered the world through Adam and that humanity became enslaved to sin, death, and hostile spiritual entities as a result. We lost our status as co-regents of the planet.

I agree that we don't inherit the sin nature but that we did inherit death (Romans 5:12). For a variety of reasons, we are now incapable on our own strength of living in agape toward God and humanity without receiving a new life. (Romans 6:1-11, Ephesians 4:20-24, Titus 3:3-7)

This world as it exists right now is the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective, while as we learn from the Adam and Eve story the Garden is a lousy (impossible) place to fulfill our earthly objective. We can thus be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through that situation and allowing us to learn from them. Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not fulfill their earthly objective in what we might consider an ideal situation.

I don't know if you are aware, but this again is Mormon doctrine. The garden of Eden was not a gilded cage it was the divine mountain throneroom of Yahweh. The nachash/serpent was not doing us a favor but was supplanting humanity through deception. Humanity was cast out. Notice that in Revelation, the mountain, throneroom of God is with humanity once again and the tree of life is still there...but no tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is intentional imaging on John's part.

Here is the question:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Obedience to Yahweh is how we love Him. It had nothing to do with rules and everything to do with personal trust. Christ is the new Adam so we are back in the garden in a right-now-but-not-yet kind of way. Whenever anyone does the will of the King, the Kingdom (good rule) of Heaven is there. That's why Jesus said that the "Kingdom of Heaven is among/within you".

God made Adam and Eve as He describes “very good” but that is not perfect. Christ was perfect but Christ was not a created being and always had Godly type Love. We on the other hand have to obtain Godly type Love, but remember we just cannot be created with this Love.

Agreed. Only God is perfect - not needing anything. We can be perfected (mature) in love when we act like Jesus through the Spirit's power, for example, loving our enemies and forgiving without end.

You seem to be conceptualize "Love" as a design feature or upgrade. Agape is a word that encapsulates mind, will and emotions. It is an orientation to give of yourself to benefit another out of deep affection.

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

Again, the way you talk about love here (if that what you mean by "His gift") as something separate from the divine community. The love of the Father for the Son in the Spirit is WHY "God is Love/agape" (1 John 4:8). The Father and Son have always existed together with the Spirit and have always been "agape-ing" one another. Yahweh is not "compelled", Love is their nature.

In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love.
Agape is a mind/will/emotion thing, heavy on the mind and will. You choose to Agape. Adam and Eve had a choice to trust or not trust. Had they trusted, they would have been "agape-ing" Yahweh. Jesus said, "Obey me to remain in my love" (John 15:10). Obedience is how we agape God: loving loyalty and trust.

This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)
The only thing needed to show love is a choice to trust the person you know (Creator, Giver, Sustainer). They chose to trust a lesser being. The opportunity was in the garden already.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).
In a post-death-cursed world, yes. Hence, Romans 5:8.

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.
I agree. 1 John 4:8- Yahweh - the Divine Community of Three - have always existed in Agape. It is the central organizing core of reality.

Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).
This is true but has the flavor of Romans 3:8 and 6:1.
 
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Stone-n-Steel

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I don't mean this in a sexist way.

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam made the choice to follow the advice of Eve knowing it was wrong. Eve faced the consequences as a part of Adam, but she was tricked.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I don't mean this in a sexist way.

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam made the choice to follow the advice of Eve knowing it was wrong. Eve faced the consequences as a part of Adam, but she was tricked.
2 Corinthians 11:3 = 1 Timothy 2:14

Ultimately, the nachash serpent told Eve to do something... Eve obeyed, doing what she was told... Eve told Adam what to do, and he obeyed doing what he was told...

The chain of command the flow of "marching orders" was:

Nachash serpent > Eve > Adam

i guess that is the opposite of the Biblical chain of command:

Eve < Adam < YHWH Elohim

The anti-Biblical chain of command plays out throughout the Old Testament and the new, as the "doctrine of Balam" which plagued the Israelites from the wilderness to Canaan, on through the massacres of the prophets of God in the days of Jezebel to the beheading of John the Baptist at the behest of Herodias and her daughter Salome to Revelation 2

I think it's pretty obvious that the Bible portrays the "Battle of the sexes" as extra-terrestrially inspired, through the intervention of Heavenly Powers on earth.
 
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Kaon

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A fair amount of Christians say that Adam and Eve ate the fruit God commanded them not to eat because Satan deceived them into believing it was good for them and would make them like God. Many Christians say that because they didn't know better they were easily decieved.

Here's the sticking point, Adam and Eve had a fair choice to obey or disobey. They had all the evidence they needed of God's goodness and loving care for them. Until that point, they never experienced evil and were well provided for by God. Yet they chose to listen and believe a serpent that they had just met over the word and command of someone they had a close relationship to and provided for their every need for some time. I don't think they were deceived in the way that we know deception. I think they actually knew better and knew what was the right choice and what was the wrong choice. And they chose poorly based on all the evidence they had of God's goodness. And we make similar mistakes and choices all the time as sinners, despite our knowledge of the goodness of God.

It opens up a whole load of questions as a result.

Were they really deceived or were they just given an opportunity to fail?

They were deceived, and spiritually raped and pillaged of their dominion over this plane of existence. The reason why they were held with such responsibility is 1) the Most High God told them what to do, and what not to do, and 2) they were made in the image of the Most High God. People think this means they were babies in the mind; on the contrary, they were volumes more spiritually and physically superior than we could ever dream of being as we exist in these corrupt meat suits. They were responsible, and the consequences is that they lost their title as Son/Daughter of the Most High God, and they were demoted to son of man.


If they had passed this test would they have failed another?

It seems the contingency plan was based on a Redeemer anyway, so it wouldn't have matter if they were "tried" again. Now, extrapolating our physical relationship to a spiritual one, Adam and Eve were spiritual pubescent children. They were accountable for their mistakes, but they were also green about the world. But, a good child (within a certain range) obeys their parents.


How much of our poor decision making and disobedience is the result of actual deception by Satan or our own evil hearts?

All of us are some degree of ignorant of the deception of the enemies/angels/powers/principalities/archons that deceive us. We are also carnal entities - meat suits with electromagnetic activation energy to begin and sustain basic processes to animate. We are already degenerate, so a lot of what we do is because of us. The enemies of the spirit just have to nudge the lot of us, and we spiral downward on our own.

If we have been supremely Graced, and Blessed to get an "on loan" spirit (the Holy Spirit), then we can actually understand higher echelons of this entire spiritual war, and we can begin to fight back against the entities that seek to destroy us. This is one reason why the Redeemer's sacrifice was so important. The depth of humiliation He went through to come from the highest heaven to this plane of existence (and below) is worse than us going 1-level down to what we think of as hell. He chose absolute humiliation for our salvation - so that we would have a fighting chance as the sons of men against the principalities and archons that try to destroy our future.


Were Adam and Eve actually considered perfect and holy before the Fall or just something close to it?

Perfect, and holy - Adam and Eve are an allusion, and a shadow of what happened in the Heavens. Perfect creatures chose to disobey their Father. Chaos ensued. Death became real. Ignorance enveloped the planes of existence that were tainted with the corruption of the spirits - all under their dominion.
 
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Justified112

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It opens up a whole load of questions as a result.

Were they really deceived or were they just given an opportunity to fail?
If they had passed this test would they have failed another?
How much of our poor decision making and disobedience is the result of actual deception by Satan or our own evil hearts?
Were Adam and Eve actually considered perfect and holy before the Fall or just something close to it?
Adam was not deceived. Eve was. The Bible makes that clear. That is why Adam is the only one blamed by God for the fall of man. Adam's disobedience was deliberate; Eve's was not.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Adam was not deceived. Eve was. The Bible makes that clear. That is why Adam is the only one blamed by God for the fall of man. Adam's disobedience was deliberate; Eve's was not.
think Adam added to God's commands when he informed Eve... Eve wound up under the impression that she could neither eat nor even touch the tree of knowledge of good & bad...

when the serpent showed her she could touch it without issue, naturally everything Adam had said was thrown into doubt ("baby with the bathwater")… so she ate, too

Adam had no such exuse
 
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Justified112

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think Adam added to God's commands when he informed Eve... Eve wound up under the impression that she could neither eat nor even touch the tree of knowledge of good & bad...

when the serpent showed her she could touch it without issue, naturally everything Adam had said was thrown into doubt ("baby with the bathwater")… so she ate, too

Adam had no such exuse
The bottom line is that Adam's disobedience was deliberate and Eve was deceived, per the Word of God.
 
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Strong in Him

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think Adam added to God's commands when he informed Eve... Eve wound up under the impression that she could neither eat nor even touch the tree of knowledge of good & bad...

Yes, but how do you know it was Adam who added to God's command, and not Eve who was repeating what she thought she heard?
 
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bling

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Yes, you're correct about the term "the fall". We came up with that word. It's not in the Bible. It may not be wrong but it may create confusion.

However, calling what happened in the garden a "transition" is actually a doctrine of the Mormon church and has never been taught in historic Christianity. Paul is clear that death (not a good thing) entered the world through Adam and that humanity became enslaved to sin, death, and hostile spiritual entities as a result. We lost our status as co-regents of the planet.

I agree that we don't inherit the sin nature but that we did inherit death (Romans 5:12). For a variety of reasons, we are now incapable on our own strength of living in agape toward God and humanity without receiving a new life. (Romans 6:1-11, Ephesians 4:20-24, Titus 3:3-7)
1. I use the word “transition” (which may not be the best word either) because when my children first sinned, I did not thing about it as a “fall”, but transitioning into another relationship. Fall might actually be a good word, but I want you and others to think deeper about what is happening.

2. Death is the way good people go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff. Prior to Christianity there were still lots of positive promises not experienced (including Christ), so there were lots of good reasons to morn death. We may want to see the Lord come again, but like Steve at his death, saw the Lord, we can also, so I do not see the need to morn death.

3. Sin, death, hell, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds and Christ going to the cross all help some willing individuals in fulfilling their objective. It is sad that we needed death to help us, which Adam’s sin provided for us.

Sin has perceived pleasure for at least a season, if some did not have death hanging over them, they would put off humbly accepting God’s charity, so death adds to the urgency to heighten ones senses to make the choice to accept now.
I don't know if you are aware, but this again is Mormon doctrine. The garden of Eden was not a gilded cage it was the divine mountain throneroom of Yahweh. The nachash/serpent was not doing us a favor but was supplanting humanity through deception. Humanity was cast out. Notice that in Revelation, the mountain, throneroom of God is with humanity once again and the tree of life is still there...but no tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is intentional imaging on John's part.
Am not getting your point (do not really care for Mormon doctrine.

The Garden of Eden, like a heaven on earth, tells us where God would like us all to be, but because it does not help us to fulfill our earthly objective we do not want to be there now, but after fulfilling our earthly objective we can go to heaven.
Obedience to Yahweh is how we love Him. It had nothing to do with rules and everything to do with personal trust. Christ is the new Adam so we are back in the garden in a right-now-but-not-yet kind of way. Whenever anyone does the will of the King, the Kingdom (good rule) of Heaven is there. That's why Jesus said that the "Kingdom of Heaven is among/within you".
Here is the “problem” with our obedience here on earth: We have to have this unique beyond human ability to instinctively have, learn and develop Godly type Love before we can obey (if you Love Me you will obey me) and What Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:1-3. How to you first obtain the gift of Godly type Love?
Agreed. Only God is perfect - not needing anything. We can be perfected (mature) in love when we act like Jesus through the Spirit's power, for example, loving our enemies and forgiving without end.

You seem to be conceptualize "Love" as a design feature or upgrade. Agape is a word that encapsulates mind, will and emotions. It is an orientation to give of yourself to benefit another out of deep affection.

Again, the way you talk about love here (if that what you mean by "His gift") as something separate from the divine community. The love of the Father for the Son in the Spirit is WHY "God is Love/agape" (1 John 4:8). The Father and Son have always existed together with the Spirit and have always been "agape-ing" one another. Yahweh is not "compelled", Love is their nature.

Agape is a mind/will/emotion thing, heavy on the mind and will. You choose to Agape. Adam and Eve had a choice to trust or not trust. Had they trusted, they would have been "agape-ing" Yahweh. Jesus said, "Obey me to remain in my love" (John 15:10). Obedience is how we agape God: loving loyalty and trust.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

This suggests the Love comes first, but we cannot just Love, but like Paul allow this Love to compel us to do all we do, which I see the example in Christ, God, The Spirit and Paul.

Also you have to have the Love first or everything else is of no value to others:

1 Cor. 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
The only thing needed to show love is a choice to trust the person you know (Creator, Giver, Sustainer). They chose to trust a lesser being. The opportunity was in the garden already.
Adam and Eve could not “obey” God without first obtaining Agape (Godly type Love) God.
In a post-death-cursed world, yes. Hence, Romans 5:8.
Why not also with Adam and Eve?
I agree. 1 John 4:8- Yahweh - the Divine Community of Three - have always existed in Agape. It is the central organizing core of reality.

This is true but has the flavor of Romans 3:8 and 6:1.
The only way I see for both Adam and Eve plus all mature adults who ever lived to obtain the gift of Godly type Love is through what Jesus teaches us:
Luke 7:36-50

“…He that is forgiven much Loves much…”

If you (accept) are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt (created by your sins) than you will automatically be gifted with an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

That means all mature adults must sin (and they will partly thanks to Adam).

We are not joining God’s army or doing anything noble, honorable, worthy, but are just willing to humbly accept God’s pure sacrificial charity (Love) in the form of forgiveness which anyone can do.

Sin is not the “problem”, but not accepting God’s Love is the “problem”.

We do not know if Adam and Eve did or didn’t latter accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity, but they now had a good reason to do so (Death physical and Spiritual, hardship they could accept as part of God’s fair/just disciplining, Limited resources they could now experience Love by sharing with others, and prior to sinning they could easily accept God’s Love as a wonderful parent’s love for wonderful obedient children and not humble themselves to the point of accepting pure charity, they were deserving.

Ask more if you would like it is a huge topic.
 
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misput

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A fair amount of Christians say that Adam and Eve ate the fruit God commanded them not to eat because Satan deceived them into believing it was good for them and would make them like God. Many Christians say that because they didn't know better they were easily decieved.

Here's the sticking point, Adam and Eve had a fair choice to obey or disobey. They had all the evidence they needed of God's goodness and loving care for them. Until that point, they never experienced evil and were well provided for by God. Yet they chose to listen and believe a serpent that they had just met over the word and command of someone they had a close relationship to and provided for their every need for some time. I don't think they were deceived in the way that we know deception. I think they actually knew better and knew what was the right choice and what was the wrong choice. And they chose poorly based on all the evidence they had of God's goodness. And we make similar mistakes and choices all the time as sinners, despite our knowledge of the goodness of God.

It opens up a whole load of questions as a result.

Were they really deceived or were they just given an opportunity to fail?
If they had passed this test would they have failed another?
How much of our poor decision making and disobedience is the result of actual deception by Satan or our own evil hearts?
Were Adam and Eve actually considered perfect and holy before the Fall or just something close to it?
They deceived themselves. The snake is a metaphor for their fleshly nature.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Yes, but how do you know it was Adam who added to God's command, and not Eve who was repeating what she thought she heard?
Why would she think she heard XYZ without having heard XYZ?

anything is possible, but seems reasonable that Adam might have told Eve "don't even touch it or look at it" so as to strengthen the commandment... not realizing the peril of adding to Divine Commandments
 
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Strong in Him

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Why would she think she heard XYZ without having heard XYZ?

She may not have been listening properly - talking, maybe - so that she got the gist of the words but not the exact command.
We'll probably never know, and maybe it doesn't matter, but I'm inclined to think that it was something like that, because:
a) she was able to be deceived, or tricked, which suggests that she wasn't sure. If someone KNOWS something, for a fact, e.g if you know that a red traffic light means 'stop', or if you know that the speed limit is 30; you can't be deceived about it. You may argue that you couldn't stop in time for the light changing, or that you were only 2 miles over the speed limit - but you can't be deceived into believing the signs meant something else.
The serpent did not say, "DID God say ......?" to Adam, because he knew that Adam knew.
b) this fits with what Paul taught in 1 Timothy 2 11-15. "A woman should learn " (they were not allowed to then) "in quietness and full submission", (obviously anyone who talks or interrupts isn't going to hear what is said and learn anything.) V 14 "FOR Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived."
Sounds to me like he is saying, "women aren't supposed to learn. I think they should - in silence and without interrupting - because then they'll know the truth and won't be deceived like Eve was." Women in the synagogues at that time would either chat among themselves - as they weren't involved; or maybe hear something and call out a question or challenge the speaker. Which is probably why, in 1 Corinthians 14:35 Paul says "if they want to know anything, let them ask their own husbands at home."

Could be wrong, but it seems likely.
 
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Erik Nelson

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She may not have been listening properly - talking, maybe - so that she got the gist of the words but not the exact command.
We'll probably never know, and maybe it doesn't matter, but I'm inclined to think that it was something like that, because:
a) she was able to be deceived, or tricked, which suggests that she wasn't sure. If someone KNOWS something, for a fact, e.g if you know that a red traffic light means 'stop', or if you know that the speed limit is 30; you can't be deceived about it. You may argue that you couldn't stop in time for the light changing, or that you were only 2 miles over the speed limit - but you can't be deceived into believing the signs meant something else.
The serpent did not say, "DID God say ......?" to Adam, because he knew that Adam knew.
b) this fits with what Paul taught in 1 Timothy 2 11-15. "A woman should learn " (they were not allowed to then) "in quietness and full submission", (obviously anyone who talks or interrupts isn't going to hear what is said and learn anything.) V 14 "FOR Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived."
Sounds to me like he is saying, "women aren't supposed to learn. I think they should - in silence and without interrupting - because then they'll know the truth and won't be deceived like Eve was." Women in the synagogues at that time would either chat among themselves - as they weren't involved; or maybe hear something and call out a question or challenge the speaker. Which is probably why, in 1 Corinthians 14:35 Paul says "if they want to know anything, let them ask their own husbands at home."

Could be wrong, but it seems likely.
Well, if Eve was only listening to Adam with half of one year. Surely Adam would have noticed that and would have clarified his remarks?

But I think we agree that the message is reading between the lines. That one way or another there was a miscommunication between Adam and Eve God communicated clearly to Adam. But there was not clear communication between Adam and Eve? Which led to her confusion and susceptibility to deception?
 
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Strong in Him

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Well, if Eve was only listening to Adam with half of one year. Surely Adam would have noticed that and would have clarified his remarks?

Maybe. But it's speculation and we'll never know.
The main thing is that both sinned against God; Eve was deceived, Adam was lured by the look of the fruit; but both did what God did not want them to.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Were Adam and Eve actually considered perfect and holy before the Fall or just something close to it?
Yes.

If they had passed this test would they have failed another?
Yahweh knows. (best to avoid hypotheticals though - stick with Scripture)
How much of our poor decision making and disobedience is the result of actual deception by Satan or our own evil hearts?
The whole world is deceived and refuses to stop serving hasatan/demons. Does it matter why they are deceived? The only solution is from Yahweh through Jesus.

As written in Scripture, test everything - even if an Apostle or an appearance of an angel/messenger of light/ delivers a message, do not accept it until it is proven true in line with all Scripture, as Scripture says. Most prove false.
 
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