The pre-tribulation rapture

_Dave_

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2019
413
231
73
Arizona
✟144,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've been saying for years that those who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down to worship antichrist.

Hello Brendan, the amazing thing is that no matter who is right we'll all be together at the same time. A favorite Bible teacher of mine used to say about pre-trib skeptics, "Don't worry, we'll explain it to you on the way up." :)

At the Mystical Supper, Jesus prayed, "I ask that You do not take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the Evil One."

Good interpretation asks about whom is a passage speaking, and what is the context.

In the long prayer in John 17 Christ first prays to the Father about His ministry on earth.

Then Jesus turns His prayer to praying for His disciples. Jesus knew His disciples would be experiencing persecutions, that the world would hate them. He prays that although He is no longer to be in the world, His disciples must remain behind to continue their commission.

He goes on to pray that while He was in the world He kept them and none were lost.

Then: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." IOW let them continue to preach the word to the world, but protect them.

Why?: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In summary, Jesus knew He was leaving. He knew His disciples would be persecuted. He prayed for the Father to keep them safely in the world to continue the Great Commission, because the world needed to hear the word and to believe in Him.

Jesus was praying for a select, specific few -- His disciples -- about their time they had left to preach on this physical world.

So, with correct interpretation and understanding the context, there is no alluding to a greater "truth" supporting no rapture. It . Just . Simply . Isn't . There.

Pre-trib rapture was never heard of before the 1830's.

Except for the Acts churches almost 1,800 years earlier. God told it to Paul, Paul preached it, the church believed it.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
There are no mortals left after Matthew 25:31-46.

Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

What is the flaming fire going to do to mortals?

How can you have "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and then another judgment of the dead in chapter 20?


.

My post is before that.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Hello Brendan, the amazing thing is that no matter who is right we'll all be together at the same time. A favorite Bible teacher of mine used to say about pre-trib skeptics, "Don't worry, we'll explain it to you on the way up." :)



Good interpretation asks about whom is a passage speaking, and what is the context.

In the long prayer in John 17 Christ first prays to the Father about His ministry on earth.

Then Jesus turns His prayer to praying for His disciples. Jesus knew His disciples would be experiencing persecutions, that the world would hate them. He prays that although He is no longer to be in the world, His disciples must remain behind to continue their commission.

He goes on to pray that while He was in the world He kept them and none were lost.

Then: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." IOW let them continue to preach the word to the world, but protect them.

Why?: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In summary, Jesus knew He was leaving. He knew His disciples would be persecuted. He prayed for the Father to keep them safely in the world to continue the Great Commission, because the world needed to hear the word and to believe in Him.

Jesus was praying for a select, specific few -- His disciples -- about their time they had left to preach on this physical world.

So, with correct interpretation and understanding the context, there is no alluding to a greater "truth" supporting no rapture. It . Just . Simply . Isn't . There.



Except for the Acts churches almost 1,800 years earlier. God told it to Paul, Paul preached it, the church believed it.

At the second coming of Christ what makes you think that Jesus returns with both the dead and the living from a mythological secret rapture 7 years prior? Read this carefully. There is only one rapture and it is at the second coming when every eye shall see Him. And sorry, that is after the Great Tribulation. Don't confuse tribulation with wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
There are no mortals left after Matthew 25:31-46.

Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

What is the flaming fire going to do to mortals?

How can you have "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and then another judgment of the dead in chapter 20?


.
The Book of Revelation is NOT in chronological order, but different visions of different events.
 
Upvote 0

Ken C.

Active Member
Mar 28, 2019
57
52
73
Rock Hill
✟11,171.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.
Thank you so much for posting that video. I've heard that taught by another and it did my heart good to hear it again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Isaac Watts sang, "Must I be carried to the clouds on flow'ry beds of ease/while others fought to win the prize and sailed through bloody seas?"

The rapturist sings, "You'd better believe it."

Pre-trib rapture was never heard of before the 1830's.


It certainly was since Paul had to address it himself But you didn't even answer my questions so I will paste them again:

yeah possible, but what makes this more likely to happen? What is it about the pretrib doctrine that makes them more susceptible?
 
Upvote 0

_Dave_

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2019
413
231
73
Arizona
✟144,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
At the second coming of Christ what makes you think that Jesus returns with both the dead and the living from a mythological secret rapture 7 years prior? Read this carefully. There is only one rapture and it is at the second coming when every eye shall see Him. And sorry, that is after the Great Tribulation. Don't confuse tribulation with wrath.

Hello Lady,

Unless you are open to learning and willing to change your mind I really don't want to get into another fruitless debate with a no-rapture believer, especially one who has so little respect for God's word as to call it mythological.

You see it your way, I see it my way. Let's leave it at that.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
That is why this is puzzling to me. Do I take the words literally, or do I take a general statement about Christians and do not see any differentiation?


We have scripture that tells us all the dead in Christ rise together, then we have a passage that focuses on one certain group of that overall larger group. If we conclude that Rev 20 shows the dead in Christ rising at two different times then we contradict what Paul told us especially since he didn't say "some of the dead in Christ rise first, then later some more of the dead in Christ will rise" :)
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
At the second coming of Christ what makes you think that Jesus returns with both the dead and the living from a mythological secret rapture 7 years prior? Read this carefully. There is only one rapture and it is at the second coming when every eye shall see Him. And sorry, that is after the Great Tribulation. Don't confuse tribulation with wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Yes.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,400.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Hello Brendan, the amazing thing is that no matter who is right we'll all be together at the same time. A favorite Bible teacher of mine used to say about pre-trib skeptics, "Don't worry, we'll explain it to you on the way up." :)



Good interpretation asks about whom is a passage speaking, and what is the context.

In the long prayer in John 17 Christ first prays to the Father about His ministry on earth.

Then Jesus turns His prayer to praying for His disciples. Jesus knew His disciples would be experiencing persecutions, that the world would hate them. He prays that although He is no longer to be in the world, His disciples must remain behind to continue their commission.

He goes on to pray that while He was in the world He kept them and none were lost.

Then: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." IOW let them continue to preach the word to the world, but protect them.

Why?: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In summary, Jesus knew He was leaving. He knew His disciples would be persecuted. He prayed for the Father to keep them safely in the world to continue the Great Commission, because the world needed to hear the word and to believe in Him.

Jesus was praying for a select, specific few -- His disciples -- about their time they had left to preach on this physical world.

So, with correct interpretation and understanding the context, there is no alluding to a greater "truth" supporting no rapture. It . Just . Simply . Isn't . There.



Except for the Acts churches almost 1,800 years earlier. God told it to Paul, Paul preached it, the church believed it.
As I have already said, NOBODY had heard of a pre-trib rapture before 1830.

It's in NONE of the writings of the Fathers.

BTW--Just because I'm not a Darbian dispensationalist, I'm not a scoffer who asks, "Where is the promise of His coming?"

Remember that the Bible experts of 2000 years ago had it worked out according to their understanding of the scriptures just what the Messiah would do when he appeared.

Well, He appeared, He didn't follow their agenda, and so they rejected Him.

Don't make the same mistake that they did.

I believe that at the Parousia, He will fulfill all the appropriate prophecies as precisely AND as unexpectedly as at His first coming.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
As I have already said, NOBODY had heard of a pre-trib rapture before 1830.

And as I said, Paul addresses the errant idea that Christ could just suddenly come before certain events like the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. That is to speak against the idea that Christ could return before the trib and those events. All of this is found in 2Thess. There are also other historical evidences of pre-trib before 1830.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

Well, I wouldn't categorize those that don't get taken as being "unfortunates". Everyone has a choice. That is why I also can safely say there are not innocent bystanders in hell.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The entire church that exists on Earth will go through the tribulation. It is pretrib that splits the church in two, making part of the church escape while the rest of the church suffers. So I ask you how do you justify a position where a portion of the Church is required to go through the trib while others are not?

I will concede there are a few folks who buy into the partial rapture concept, but that is a subset of the pre-trib group. You really shouldn't generalize so much and paint with such a broad brush.

Those that hold to that idea of a partial rapture have no real understanding of what justification is. Frankly, many in the body have a skewed understanding of what justification is. They confuse sanctification with justification. It leads to what might be called a "protestant purgatory" where those that don't quite measure up have to go thru the period to prove their metal. I believe such thinking is an insult to YHVH, basically saying that Yeshua's death is not sufficient to justify.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I will concede there are a few folks who buy into the partial rapture concept, but that is a subset of the pre-trib group.


Don't all pre-trib's have a split church rapture though because they claim some are raptured away while "trib saints" or the "trib church" goes through it?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Hello Lady,

Unless you are open to learning and willing to change your mind I really don't want to get into another fruitless debate with a no-rapture believer, especially one who has so little respect for God's word as to call it mythological.

You see it your way, I see it my way. Let's leave it at that.

I believe in the traditional rapture at the second coming of Christ. That is scripture. It is you that doesn't believe God's Word.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Yes.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.

Yes, I agree. Why people base their theology on a series of fictional books is ludicrous.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, I agree. Why people base their theology on a series of fictional books is ludicrous.

It's hard to see through something you believed most or all your life. What confuses me is how people can read the scriptures I posted and still think the rapture happens before any of the GT even begins. Paul clearly places it after two events that both follow after the GT.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
At the second coming of Christ what makes you think that Jesus returns with both the dead and the living from a mythological secret rapture 7 years prior? Read this carefully. There is only one rapture and it is at the second coming when every eye shall see Him. And sorry, that is after the Great Tribulation. Don't confuse tribulation with wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I would say it would be from this....

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice, we meet the Lord in the air. We are gathered to Him just like a bride leaves her house and joins with the groom outside the house to be taken to the wedding Chupah in the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual. He doesn't descend to the surface of the earth at that time.

John 14:2-3 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock. ("the day of trouble", not a day of trouble. See Jeremiah 30:7)

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms (see John 14:2-3 above)
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Don't all pre-trib's have a split church rapture though because they claim some are raptured away while "trib saints" or the "trib church" goes through it?

Very few. Most pre-trib folks believe that all the justified in the Lord are gathered together at the same time. Yes, even those that hold to all the other eschatological concepts. All those who have turned to Yeshua and placed their trust and lives in His hands are justified. No goofy stuff like partial justification. All those justified will be removed according to the vast majority of pre-trib folks. None of the goofy "I am better than you and you don't measure up" nonsense that leads to crazy ideas like a partial rapture. Either Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection is sufficient to justify or it is not. I think it is.
 
Upvote 0