Trump -- the collusion delusion is over

@tulc

I do not take a crime and then... fit it in left and right political arena. If a Trump falls too for a crime, it is what it is. I found out long ago , the system as a whole serves the dollar not the people.

I see you as a Christian firstly and "know" you see the true nature of this system. There is a two teared law system for average joe (Me) and a rich or powerful person. What I hope for is law unto the flesh of our leaders. No matter what letter is beside the persons name, or how big their corporation or law firm is. No fear of the flesh is what got us here and breaded psychopaths (<--War, as business model?) to rule us.

In Christ tulc.

Gigimo said:

I'm pretty sure they're aware that it isn't over, they know the opposition will always be looking for anything they can misconstrue/insinuate is a crime instead of actually investigating a specifically named crime.

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The Dems keep talking about other investigations into this or that. Problem is though most Americans are finally fed up and exasperated at a party who tried desperately to bring Trump down and the people just want them to SHUT UP! I think most know that if one looked hard enough they could probably find some financial crime or short coming he committed before being President but most feel if ANYONE should be investigated it should be the Dems! They'd be wise to tread lightly. They may have an almost impossible time as it is to win the next election.

Bobber said:

The Dems keep talking about other investigations into this or that. Problem is though most Americans are finally fed up and exasperated at a party who tried desperately to bring Trump down and the people just want them to SHUT UP!

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Or President Trump supporters want that, not the majority of Americans. They aren't the majority, something both President Trump and his base have a hard time remembering.

I think most know that if one looked hard enough they could probably find some financial crime or short coming he committed before being President but most feel if ANYONE should be investigated it should be the Dems!

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...or not.

They'd be wise to tread lightly.

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President Trumps election to being president would seem to say treading lightly isn't what's required.

They may have an almost impossible time as it is to win the next election.

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Not as long as they keep quoting President Trump and his supporters they shouldn't.
tulc(that seems to be their best tool so far)

Bobber said:

The Dems keep talking about other investigations into this or that.

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Yes, as a number of former prosecutors have said, Trump probably has more to fear from the NY attorney general and the SDNY:

Preet Bharara was a U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York from 2009 to 2017 under President Barack Obama’s administration and during the first two months of Trump’s presidential term.

“Unlike the special counsel’s office, the Southern District does not have any kind of circumscribed mandate,” Bharara told Time, saying Trump should worry more about the Southern District than Mueller.

“They are not limited to issues related to collusion or obstruction or interference with the election of 2016. They can look at everything. And that includes bank fraud, tax fraud, money laundering, you name it.”

Southern District prosecutors are probing hush payments made to women alleging affairs with Trump—namely the adult film actress Stormy Daniels, whose birth name is Stephanie Clifford, and Karen McDougal, a former Playboy model—as well as the finances of his inauguration committee.

Mueller, through the Department of Justice, is tasked with investigating Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and suspicions of collusion between the Trump campaign and agents of the Kremlin.

The president is fiercely critical of the special counsel’s investigation, dismissing it as a politically motivated “witch hunt.”

But a number of Trump’s associates have fallen foul of Mueller’s probe, including his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort and his ex-fixer Michael Cohen, both of whom are facing jail time following their convictions. Others, such as Trump friend and adviser Roger Stone, remain indicted.

One of Cohen’s convictions is for a campaign finance violation relating to a $130,000 hush payment to Daniels, which is under investigation by the Southern District of New York. Cohen alleges Trump directed him to make the payment, a claim the president denies.
Trump should fear New York prosecutors more than Mueller, Preet Bharara says

The Inauguration Problem:
Trump’s Inaugural Grift Reportedly Lined His Own Pockets
Donald Trump and various entities he has controlled have been subject to a wide array of criminal investigations, some of them quite intricate and complex. That complexity has obscured what is quickly becoming a clear and simple conclusion: Trump used his inauguration to illegally line his own pockets.

The inauguration is under federal investigation, and the story has emerged in dribs and drabs. But enough pieces have come together that we know where the story is going. Let’s quickly review.

Last March, WNYC took note of the vast sums spent on Trump’s inauguration, which cost twice as much as the previously most expensive inaugural event, yet could not easily account for where all the extra money had gone. In December, the Wall Street Journal broke the news that federal investigators were looking into the inauguration.

At this point, the story appeared to revolve primarily around Trump cronies using the inauguration for enrichment or political influence. “Many of the president’s biggest campaign backers were involved in the inaugural fund,” the Journal noted. The probe also looked into whether the inaugural fund had accepted foreign money, which is prohibited.

But WNYC found in December that one possible source of overpayments included fees to Donald Trump’s Washington hotel. Emails by WNYC found the Trump Hotel manager proposing to charge the inauguration $175,000 a day for use of its ballroom and conference rooms, a rate the manager of the inauguration objected to as exorbitant.

Monday night, ABC News reported that investigators subpoenaed documents from the inauguration committee. Today ProPublica adds another key detail, confirming that the inauguration did pay the exorbitant $175,000 fee to the Trump Hotel. And it quotes tax law experts describing this as an obvious crime. “It could be a tax law violation,” Brett Kappel, an attorney at Akerman LLP who advises nonprofits, tells ProPublica.

Of course, fees to Trump’s hotel go straight into the pockets of Donald Trump and his family. So these apparent tax law violations — which amount to embezzling funds from the inaugural committee through self-dealing — were carried out for their personal benefit.
Trump’s Inaugural Grift Reportedly Lined His Own Pockets

And, of course, Congress is doing their own investigation. Hopefully, it will wrap up faster than the republican investigation of Hillary Clinton, but I wouldn't count on it.

Problem is though most Americans are finally fed up and exasperated at a party who tried desperately to bring Trump down and the people just want them to SHUT UP!

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Hmm... this month...
Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that Donald Trump committed crimes before he became president, according to a new Quinnipiac poll conducted after Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen testified to Congress.

Among those surveyed, 64 percent believe that the president committed crimes before he was elected, with 24 percent saying they don’t think he did.

Those polled were split on whether they believe Trump has committed crimes while in office: According to the poll, 45 percent believe the president has, while 43 percent say he hasn’t.
Poll: 64 percent believe Trump committed crimes before presidency

Apparently, not. A majority of Americans believe the president is a crook. Not since Nixon, has that happened.

I think most know that if one looked hard enough they could probably find some financial crime or short coming he committed before being President but most feel if ANYONE should be investigated it should be the Dems!

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Republicans had a three-year "investigation" of democrats. Would you like to hear how that turned out for them?

They'd be wise to tread lightly.

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I suppose "what goes around, comes around" would apply here. The only difference is, this time, there are lots of perps who committed real crimes, getting real sentences.

They may have an almost impossible time as it is to win the next election.

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That's what Trump said in 2018.

Mountainmanbob said:

For the ones that lied to their country and tried to take down an innocent president there should be consequences.

Especially for the government officials involved.

And what are the news agencies that were so involved in this scheme saying now? Any apologies noted?

M-Bob

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In typical "Trumpian" fashion, "The Donald" and his supporters are demanding apologies and seeking revenge without ever having actually read the Report itsef!

The President replaced Attorney General Jeff Sessions for a reason - Barr's decision to release a 4 page "summary," followed by weeks of delay in providing Congress and the public with access to a "sanitized" version of the Mueller Report, provides Trump with his own window of opportunity to "brainwash" the nation!

Remember that this is the same President who repeatedly assured the nation that he would build a great, southern "WALL" - and that Mexico would pay for it!

Bobber said:

The Dems keep talking about other investigations into this or that. Problem is though most Americans are finally fed up and exasperated at a party who tried desperately to bring Trump down and the people just want them to SHUT UP! I think most know that if one looked hard enough they could probably find some financial crime or short coming he committed before being President but most feel if ANYONE should be investigated it should be the Dems! They'd be wise to tread lightly. They may have an almost impossible time as it is to win the next election.

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They're going to get a certain amount of votes no matter what so it depends on the gullibility factor of the "independents" as to what will happen.

tulc said:

ahh yes because all those people who plead guilty and those yet to be charged with other crimes will no doubt be happy to discover President Trump is more then happy to let them do time for "imagined" crimes.
tulc(was right, he thought 2019 was going to be the best year yet of President Trumps administration!)

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So what about all of the other people who know or have in the past employed those same folks that were indicted/prosecuted in the Mueller witch hunt? Aren't they just as guilty as Trump since it seems popular nowadays to judge someone solely on who they know?


I'm guessing the answer I'll get is no.

Gigimo said:

They're going to get a certain amount of votes no matter what so it depends on the gullibility factor of the "independents" as to what will happen.

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In key states, independents broke for Trump in 2016, and broke against him in 2018
Independent Voters Flipped The Entire Presidential Election to Trump - IVN.us

But after two years of chaos, criminals, and drift in the WH...

Voting for Democratic candidates ticked up a hair among blacks, Democrats and even Republicans. After losing independent voters by 12 points in 2014, Democrats won them by 12 points this year.
A week later it's clear the midterms did produce a blue wave

Trump could still win the election, but he's going to have to get those independents back. And that could be a problem for him:

Opinions of the emergency declaration largely fall along party lines: only 10 percent of Democratic voters support it, while 83 percent oppose it. The numbers are flipped for Republicans, with 80 percent supporting the declaration and only 13 percent opposing it. Independents are against the declaration by a nearly 2 to 1 ratio: 30 percent support it, and 57 percent oppose it.
Poll: Majority still opposes Trump emergency declaration

He can't win without independents, and they overwhelmingly reject his signature objective. Not as gullible as he hoped.

Gigimo said:

So what about all of the other people who know or have in the past employed those same folks that were indicted/prosecuted in the Mueller witch hunt? Aren't they just as guilty as Trump

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If they committed crimes while working for those others, that would reflect on the others, yes. Flynn got fired working under Obama but not for criminal activity, so that probably matters.

since it seems popular nowadays to judge someone solely on who they know?

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It is a concern when a president puts so many criminals into so many important positions in his organization, yes.

Mountainmanbob said:

For the ones that lied to their country and tried to take down an innocent president there should be consequences.

Especially for the government officials involved.

And what are the news agencies that were so involved in this scheme saying now? Any apologies noted?

M-Bob

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Respectfully, I have not seen anyone lie to their country to take down the President. Where do you get your information?

Bobber said:

The Dems keep talking about other investigations into this or that. Problem is though most Americans are finally fed up and exasperated at a party who tried desperately to bring Trump down and the people just want them to SHUT UP! I think most know that if one looked hard enough they could probably find some financial crime or short coming he committed before being President but most feel if ANYONE should be investigated it should be the Dems! They'd be wise to tread lightly. They may have an almost impossible time as it is to win the next election.

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Are you aware that it's possible to spin a legitimate investigation with legitimate concerns, and sow division by portraying it as a partisan effort to bring down the President?

childeye 2 said:

Respectfully, I have not seen anyone lie to their country to take down the President. Where do you get your information?

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Of course it happened:

Trump said in 2011: “Obama was a terrible student and he shouldn’t have been able to get into the schools he did”.
https://www.quora.com/Trump-said-in...ow-does-a-bad-student-go-to-Columbia-and-then

Obama graduated from Columbia University in New York in 1983 with a degree in political science after transferring from Occidental College in California. He went on to Harvard Law School, where he graduated magna cum laude 1991 and was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.

Trump was birther-in-chief before he became president, pushing the lie that Obama was not born in the United States.

Lots of other examples. It's Trump's M.O.

The Barbarian said:

Of course it happened:

Trump said in 2011: “Obama was a terrible student and he shouldn’t have been able to get into the schools he did”.
https://www.quora.com/Trump-said-in...ow-does-a-bad-student-go-to-Columbia-and-then

Obama graduated from Columbia University in New York in 1983 with a degree in political science after transferring from Occidental College in California. He went on to Harvard Law School, where he graduated magna cum laude 1991 and was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.

Trump was birther-in-chief before he became president, pushing the lie that Obama was not born in the United States.

Lots of other examples. It's Trump's M.O.

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I just want to know if the Trump supporters who say this stuff truly realize that what they are believing in and actively participating in is wrong and untrue.

I mean do they consider whether they are loving others as they would want to be loved? Or are they blindly projecting carnal wickedness and vanity? Is this why they like Trump because he engages in this type of behavior? Shouldn't we speak forthrightly with these people to correct them?

childeye 2 said:

I just want to know if the Trump supporters who say this stuff truly realize that what they are believing in and actively participating in is wrong and untrue.

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On both sides of their illusions. People aren't lying about the criminal behavior of so many of his people. And Trump was lying about so many things he said about Obama.

I mean do they consider whether they are loving others as they would want to be loved? Or are they blindly projecting carnal wickedness and vanity? Is this why they like Trump because he engages in this type of behavior? Shouldn't we speak forthrightly with these people to correct them?

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I think there's a small, dark place in all of us, where wickedness has an attraction. The place where we see people like Trump as fascinating, because they can toss aside Christian values and decency, and seem to win.

The Barbarian said:

On both sides of their illusions. People aren't lying about the criminal behavior of so many of his people. And Trump was lying about so many things he said about Obama.

I think there's a small, dark place in all of us, where wickedness has an attraction. The place where we see people like Trump as fascinating, because they can toss aside Christian values and decency, and seem to win.

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I understand that the carnal mind in it's enmity against God feels lifted up in the putting down of others. That is what I believe is behind this hatred of Democrats.

As for a small dark place in all of us, I admit that I am repulsed by almost everything Trump says. But with every compulsion to dislike Trump I am also sensitive to how he affects me and I feel the urgent need to examine myself and take a mental shower. I believe that it's the Holy Spirit that instructs me and cleanses me concerning this. Do you experience the same thing?

childeye 2 said:

I just want to know if the Trump supporters who say this stuff truly realize that what they are believing in and actively participating in is wrong and untrue.

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Even if people did consider there was wrong and untrue things about Trump and still supported him how is that any different than the Dems? Are we to believe that a great many Dems didn't consider all things weren't perfect about Hill and yet still voted for her?

Bobber said:

Even if people did consider there was wrong and untrue things about Trump and still supported him how is that any different than the Dems? Are we to believe that a great many Dems didn't consider all things weren't perfect about Hill and yet still voted for her?

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uhmmm...one of the differences is that the Republicans have spent the last 20 or so years condemning the Democrats for the very thing they now see as a virtue.
tulc(thinks it's also sort of fun watching Republicans come up with new and surprising ways to support the very things they were "morally outraged" about just a couple of years ago)

Bobber said:

Even if people did consider there was wrong and untrue things about Trump and still supported him how is that any different than the Dems?

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I don't understand. Why would being a Democrat or a Republican have anything to do with carnal wickedness? Isn't it just plain wrong to spread lies about others that aren't true no matter who does it? As a Trump supporter, why do you do this?

Bobber said:

Even if people did consider there was wrong and untrue things about Trump and still supported him how is that any different than the Dems? Are we to believe that a great many Dems didn't consider all things weren't perfect about Hill and yet still voted for her?

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Respectfully, are you aware that you are changing the narrative?
I asked if Trump supporters recognized that they are actively participating in the slander of others concerning the topic of the thread. And also, do they recognize that it is slander they are listening to about Democrats coming from this President?

How are the Democrats at fault for wanting to know about this email?